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Iverron posted:Even if they care, if you have a particular level of domain knowledge around a client / product, good luck getting most of them to do anything about it but make empty promises. In my personal experience, when I start getting pigeonholed, that's the beginning of the end of my employment there. It just happened with a coworker last week. I'd be surprised if it doesn't happen to me again here. That sounds like bad management, because as soon as you start pigeonholing people then your team is not a team, so much as it's a loosely bound collection of single points of failure. You go on vacation, get sick, quit, or get hit by a bus, and suddenly there goes that domain knowledge that apparently mattered so much that only you could do that job.
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Dec 27, 2016 07:27
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kitten smoothie posted:That sounds like bad management, because as soon as you start pigeonholing people then your team is not a team, so much as it's a loosely bound collection of single points of failure. It is bad management. And that just happened when a coworker got fed up and quit. But it took that to really convince anyone that it was a real problem. Always a Catch 22 with this stuff. Stay? No change. Leave? I'd rather have your skill set than X client. It's a hard sell to stay even with promises of change, but living in a flyover state has downsides.
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Dec 27, 2016 17:50
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kitten smoothie posted:That sounds like bad management, because as soon as you start pigeonholing people then your team is not a team, so much as it's a loosely bound collection of single points of failure. This happens constantly at my current job. Projects are delayed over and over because single points of failure go on vacation, deal with family emergencies, get loving aneurysms, etc. and they still haven't learned to manage their projects well. Corporate!  In any case, I agree that building skills is more important than many other things. I was taught that there's three dimensions that a career is built on: education, experience, and exposure. I've got a chunk of education already and can handle that on my own, but I need experience and exposure to be provided by wherever I'm working. And there is such a thing as negative experience - being a monkey on unimportant, badly architected projects is worse than not doing anything because at least you aren't learning bad habits with the latter. I really just complain about my job more than anything else, but I still don't have much confidence in it right now that it's what I need for a good future career. I'll be moving on eventually. I want to work on something that's interesting, improves my prospects for a good career, and treats me well. At least it isn't cyber security as a career, cause I keep getting advised to go into it and there's all sorts of reasons I shouldn't 
Pollyanna fucked around with this message at 17:56 on Dec 27, 2016 |
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Dec 27, 2016 17:54
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Being a monkey on bad projects is a rite of passage. It gives you war stories, and gets listed on your resume as "something something legacy systems." Experience is what you make of it. Being in a bad place but fighting to improve it, or at least honing your sense of code smells, is absolutely better for you and your career than not working.
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Dec 27, 2016 18:11
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I just got word that the company is preparing to make me an offer!  Nothing official yet but thanks everyone for the help and insight and words of encouragement. Let the imposter syndrome shape-shift into a new form and cause me tons of different anxiety before starting my second real software gig!
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Dec 27, 2016 18:15
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lifg posted:Experience is what you make of it. Being in a bad place but fighting to improve it, or at least honing your sense of code smells, is absolutely better for you and your career than not working. If they're not receptive to you fighting to improve it, though, then gtfo and go somewhere else that does. Being able to identify a code or architectural smell is great if the organization lets you actually try to address it. Otherwise you're building a mental model of code smells with untested hypotheses as to how to fix them.
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Dec 27, 2016 18:33
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Good Will Hrunting posted:I just got word that the company is preparing to make me an offer!  Congratulations, and good luck!
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Dec 27, 2016 18:47
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kitten smoothie posted:If they're not receptive to you fighting to improve it, though, then gtfo and go somewhere else that does. Fighting and failing is still useful experience. All else being equal, which is a huge step, I'd sooner say yes to an interviewee who had read Dale Carnegie (and Crucial Conversations and such) and tried and failed to convince their bosses to do better, than one who didn't try. I'm not saying you should stay in a bad job, but having a bad job is better than not having a job, and you can get a lot of useful experience from it.
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Dec 27, 2016 19:21
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I think it's getting time for me to move on too, though this one is more of a "lies and damned lies" thing. I got hired as a remote engineer and was told "oh we won't have you travel, just to orientation and a couple events", and it's been a week of travel every month for the last 6 months I've been with them for various poo poo. Now it's getting "worse" - fly to places for 1 day, then turn around and come home. Couple that with micromanagement and being told to do vague stuffl like "implement docker" when the actual team that would be using it is extremely resistant to the idea (left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing) and I'm fed up. Any tips on interviewing the company? I can never get a good read on whether they're a bunch of jerks or not.
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Dec 27, 2016 19:34
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How long have each of you worked at this company? What's your deployment process like? Do you have bouts of "crunch time?" Those questions can be pretty revealing.
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Dec 27, 2016 19:40
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When I'm interviewing a company, I like to ask a lot of general questions and then watch how they answer vs. listening to the words they say. I have straight up asked "Do you like working here?" to devs in interviews - they will always tell you "Yes! it's great!" but watching how long they pause, who they look at before they answer, whether or not it sounds like they believe it - so useful. I also like to ask if people like to socialize outside of work together - it's a sign that everyone is at least polite to each other (this can also mean it's clique-y and passive aggressive, but that's harder to suss out). Also, observe the office. Do people look happy, or run down? Do people's desks show signs of stress and late hours, like trashbins full of energy drinks? There's also positive signs like people taking breaks, bulletin boards with activities and non-work news, signs of "life outside work".
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Dec 27, 2016 21:07
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lifg posted:I'd sooner say yes to an interviewee who had read Dale Carnegie (and Crucial Conversations and such) and tried and failed to convince their bosses to do better, than one who didn't try. In my experience, folks poo poo talking their previous management tend to have giant blind spots to their own faults. Think how!!
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Dec 27, 2016 21:07
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vonnegutt posted:Also, observe the office. Do people look happy, or run down? Do people's desks show signs of stress and late hours, like trashbins full of energy drinks?
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Dec 27, 2016 23:26
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I got the offer for a 30k raise with a 7.5k increase in my bonus. I didn't tell them what I was looking for but I did tell them how much I had received in a previous offer and that they were going to have to beat which they did. Do I still negotiate?
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Dec 28, 2016 00:08
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It sounds like you already asked for something and they gave you exactly what you asked for, so that would be hard to pull off
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Dec 28, 2016 00:42
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Always negotiate. "Hey that sounds great, and I'm super excited, but I was anticipating offers more in the range of x+10k. Let me know if you think we can make it work! Really pumped!" or whatever
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Dec 28, 2016 00:51
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Though if you already told them something, you kinda pinned yourself down. Don't do that in the future.
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Dec 28, 2016 00:53
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VOTE YES ON 69 posted:Always negotiate. "Hey that sounds great, and I'm super excited, but I was anticipating offers more in the range of x+10k. Let me know if you think we can make it work! Really pumped!" or whatever You can, however, still ask about little things like an extra vacation day or two. Basically anything not already discussed. "Hmm, yes the money sounds good and is more than what I'm making now, but I'd like two more days' vacation than that. Anything you can do for me on that front?" Worst case is they just tell you no. If it's otherwise an improvement on your current job then screw it, take the offer anyway. Or see if you can get another higher offer. "Well see this other place offered me $15K more than that but I like you more so how about you give me that and I work for you instead?" Start a bidding war for yourself if you can.
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Dec 28, 2016 00:59
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Got some work coming in on the side, and I feel like I screwed up my ask. They wanted to know my rate, and replied with "great, things will get rolling in about a week, here's the project info". I feel like I could have gotten more since there was no pushback. 
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Dec 28, 2016 01:07
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ToxicSlurpee posted:You can, however, still ask about little things like an extra vacation day or two. Basically anything not already discussed.
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Dec 28, 2016 01:38
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Their offer to me was verbal as they "wanted to know if I'd accept something along those terms". This might mean they're more open to negotiation?
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Dec 28, 2016 01:42
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Good Will Hrunting posted:Their offer to me was verbal as they "wanted to know if I'd accept something along those terms". This might mean they're more open to negotiation?
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Dec 28, 2016 01:52
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vonnegutt posted:Also, observe the office. Do people look happy, or run down? Do people's desks show signs of stress and late hours, like trashbins full of energy drinks? There's also positive signs like people taking breaks, bulletin boards with activities and non-work news, signs of "life outside work".
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Dec 28, 2016 01:56
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Vulture Culture posted:Counterpoint: my desk is constantly covered in soda cans and coffee cups because the company I work for has very good work-life balance, which is why I choose to work there while raising a toddler and a newborn that keep me awake all the time. I'm constantly run down -- this is what having kids is like -- but also very happy at my job. The only places I've worked where all desks were neat and clean were like that because either cleaning staff messed around and occasionally broke people's stuff or staff were reprimanded for not keeping a clean desk and everyone hated it.
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Dec 28, 2016 02:34
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Worst case is they just tell you no. This is an important point. Negotiating can absolutely fail, but the actual worst case for you is 'sorry, we can't do anything beyond this'. If someone ever responds "You greedy gently caress! We take back our offer, get lost"... that means that you dodged a massive bullet. Who the poo poo has a clean desk?
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Dec 28, 2016 02:53
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lifg posted:Fighting and failing is still useful experience. All else being equal, which is a huge step, I'd sooner say yes to an interviewee who had read Dale Carnegie (and Crucial Conversations and such) and tried and failed to convince their bosses to do better, than one who didn't try. Oh yeah, we're on the same page there. I'm not arguing for stepping over problems rather than trying to fight to fix them. But at some point if you continue to see problems, you continue to rock your Dale Carnegie skills to push proposed solutions up the chain, and management's response is not to care, maybe it's time to find a workplace where they do. I'm primarily quitting my job because there was a cultural 180 done about keeping the org's technical house in order. The prior leadership cared about hearing about problems, prioritized them according to business value but still enabled people to fix them, and used their authority to involve other teams/etc if necessary. When I interviewed with these people it was amazingly refreshing and I was super excited to be signing on with them. They rocked the boat too hard about this stuff and got forced out. The current leadership would rather ship broken software in a broken environment because they can put "shipped XYZ" bullet points in their quarterly powerpoint decks to their bosses, and taking time out to fix things would result in a deck with fewer bullet points.
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Dec 28, 2016 04:44
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Vulture Culture posted:Counterpoint: my desk is constantly covered in soda cans and coffee cups because the company I work for has very good work-life balance, which is why I choose to work there while raising a toddler and a newborn that keep me awake all the time. I'm constantly run down -- this is what having kids is like -- but also very happy at my job. Oh totally, that's why it's important to look for trends vs individuals. I also didn't mean desks needed to be absolutely clean or anything like that. If all the surfaces are covered with dumb kinetic toys and Soylent I know I'm in the office of a of Hacker News-reading startup that will want my life to revolve around them. If there's a kegerator and nerf guns, it's going to be a post-college brogramming situation. If it's a cubicle farm with nothing but the fire code on the wall, I know that people don't really ever settle in there. Obviously I'm making a lot of quick judgements, but getting the read on a place will let you know which questions to ask to get actual information.
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Dec 28, 2016 16:42
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What does it mean if there are balloons all over the floor?
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Dec 28, 2016 17:28
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sarehu posted:What does it mean if there are balloons all over the floor? Everyone who works there went to clown college.
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Dec 28, 2016 17:43
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sarehu posted:What does it mean if there are balloons all over the floor? 
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Dec 28, 2016 17:44
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Sometimes clean desks also mean they have a hot-desking/hoteling policy where they're liberal about WFH but also only have enough desks for 60-80% of headcount. You either bring your stuff home every night or you put it in a locker.
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Dec 28, 2016 18:32
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My company has lockers and no permanent desks. It makes me feel like a cog. I am not a fan.
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Dec 28, 2016 19:00
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Has anyone tried negotiating benefits / vacation days at a large company? They seem to have so much policies around it that doing a one off deal would be hard.
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Dec 28, 2016 19:29
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smackfu posted:Has anyone tried negotiating benefits / vacation days at a large company? They seem to have so much policies around it that doing a one off deal would be hard. I've had zero luck negotiating vacation at large companies. Both times the answer was that vacation is entirely determined by length of employment and that was that. They also wouldn't start me with accrued vacation. The second company increased their offer to compensate, whichever I accepted, but it's not the same thing. I haven't tried to negotiate benefits, but I would expect the same. I think there's a difference though as as a lot of other benefits, excluding any that give leave, have a cash equivalent and you could ask for a higher salary.
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Dec 28, 2016 20:00
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asur posted:I've had zero luck negotiating vacation at large companies. Both times the answer was that vacation is entirely determined by length of employment and that was that. They also wouldn't start me with accrued vacation. The second company increased their offer to compensate, whichever I accepted, but it's not the same thing. Startups will do it. But then every time they get a (new) HR department /software (person) you need to drag out the written offer again
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Dec 28, 2016 20:15
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asur posted:I've had zero luck negotiating vacation at large companies. Both times the answer was that vacation is entirely determined by length of employment and that was that. They also wouldn't start me with accrued vacation. The second company increased their offer to compensate, whichever I accepted, but it's not the same thing. Some companies have been working around that, actually. I think the reasoning is that it's dumb to give a person with like 20 years of experience the same vacation time as a new guy. It can also be pretty hard to get people to come in if you're like "weeeeeeeell we'll give you what we'd give a total noob and little else hey where are you going?" Where I got my job their policy is "no vacation your first year" but they started me at what you'd get after a couple years of experience. Literally every policy H.R. has can have exceptions applied to it if the right people are pulling on the strings and if a place wants you/just wants tech nerds in general those strings are going to get pulled by the right people. This is especially true when it comes to competent programmers.
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Dec 28, 2016 20:32
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smackfu posted:Has anyone tried negotiating benefits / vacation days at a large company? They seem to have so much policies around it that doing a one off deal would be hard. I haven't done this myself, but I've had friends who have successfully negotiated to get more vacation time at big and small companies. Usually the sort of thing where if the company's rule is that you get X days as a new hire, X+5 days after 2 years, X+10 after 5, and they negotiated to start at the next tier on day 1. Don't let the policy angle on it dissuade you from trying to negotiate. I used to work on HR software that handled stuff like time, attendance, vacation accruals, etc. Nearly every rule or policy that could apply to you with regard to this stuff can be easily overridden by HR just for you.
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Dec 28, 2016 21:12
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I've never been able to negotiate benefits, only salary. But I'm a mid-tier programmer, and never worked at one of those programmer-paradise companies.
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Dec 28, 2016 21:17
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I replied with a loose negotiation request. I'm taking the offer regardless. Any advice for dealing with severe imposter syndrome when coming from a work environment where you feel like you didn't progress very much? Half-kidding, but this is going to be a pretty big rude awakening.
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Dec 28, 2016 21:38
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Good Will Hrunting posted:I replied with a loose negotiation request. I'm taking the offer regardless. Just keep doing what you're doing. You got hired somehow, so unless you're a master imposter you'll be fine. It's nerve racking as gently caress though, and managing that is the hardest part. I'm still convinced that the only reason I get hired places is because I've got pretty decent soft skills.
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Dec 28, 2016 22:15
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