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Zebulon posted:Not really sure why some people are determined to hate Naze or bitch that Tekkadan hasn't had some horrific, blatant, catastrophic fall. Is the Naze hate because they can't figure out the Turbines seen to pretty much just Tekkadan, "Harem" edition and that the whole thing is probably just a protection scheme to keep them from being exploited from assholes in Teiwaz or elsewhere? The problem with the Turbines is that while your version is probably what's going on, the show has never overtly said so one way or the other and the Turbines really are just presented as a perfect harem 90% of the time which is pretty stupid. Naze has also been a pretty boring character archetype until pretty recently. Personally, I think they're just kind of inoffensive and there but I can understand people's dislike of them, since at best they've been ineffectual as an entity and plot point and at worst come across as some kind of teenage sex fantasy.
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Dec 27, 2016 23:11
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Yeah, the mask in Gundam is never really for the audience, it's for the characters at best and usually more to inform you about the character's mindset or state in some fashion.Zebulon posted:Not really sure why some people are determined to hate Naze or bitch that Tekkadan hasn't had some horrific, blatant, catastrophic fall. Is the Naze hate because they can't figure out the Turbines seen to pretty much just Tekkadan, "Harem" edition and that the whole thing is probably just a protection scheme to keep them from being exploited from assholes in Teiwaz or elsewhere? Because they're presented as a perfect wonderful harem and Naze as a flawless selfless person who just happens to be banging the women he takes in for protection. Naze Turbine is basically the worst character in the show, lacking in interesting depth or flaws and seems to be there as a writer's crutch at best and a author's pet character at worst. I get the idea behind it ("here is a non-standard family and yet despite being non-standard they're functional and it is necessary for them to survive in this cruel world") but the Turbines are presented without the sharp rough edges of the other factions in the show. Even being part of Teiwaz is mostly so they can be better than those guys. Frankly I think I'd like IBO twice as much if the Turbines were removed from it as a lot of my complaints stem from them. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Dec 27, 2016 |
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Dec 27, 2016 23:13
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Zebulon posted:Is the Naze hate because they can't figure out the Turbines seen to pretty much just Tekkadan, "Harem" edition and that the whole thing is probably just a protection scheme to keep them from being exploited from assholes in Teiwaz or elsewhere? Gives me the same impression as Orga picking up strays in the Brewers arc. If Naze isn't loving his wives, them girls are having a suspicious number of virgin births.
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Dec 27, 2016 23:17
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Guy Goodbody posted:If Naze isn't loving his wives, them girls are having a suspicious number of virgin births. Oh yeah, I forgot about that convo.
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Dec 27, 2016 23:20
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Tae posted:At least G-reco had some fans. Who does IBO appeal to? Not the japanese and judging by the toonami thread, not the americans either. It ranked pretty decently in nnd's year end poll so http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-ne...errer=community
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Dec 28, 2016 00:00
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Guy Goodbody posted:If Naze isn't loving his wives, them girls are having a suspicious number of virgin births. poo poo. I forgot about that. I had it in my head there was only the one baby and assumed it was his second in command's. Were there more shown/mentioned?
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Dec 28, 2016 00:46
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Zebulon posted:poo poo. I forgot about that. I had it in my head there was only the one baby and assumed it was his second in command's. Were there more shown/mentioned? Yeah, there's a scene where Atra and I think Kudelia are hanging out with the ship's babies. (I think it's even the scene where Atra imagines her and Kudelia both having Mika's kid but that may come later.)
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Dec 28, 2016 00:50
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Zebulon posted:poo poo. I forgot about that. I had it in my head there was only the one baby and assumed it was his second in command's. Were there more shown/mentioned? In episode 8, there are 5 babies on board the Turbines ship, Naze says they're all his from different mothers, and Lafter says the same thing later. They also talk about older children who are at school on Earth
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Dec 28, 2016 00:54
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ImpAtom posted:Mika's injuries are from overtaxing his super suit and not from actual injury in battle. They're interesting (though I don't have a ton of faith in them sticking to the consequences but that may just be cynicism) Yeah, I also worry that they'll take back the damage Mika's done to himself. I'm hesitantly optimistic that they won't repeat S1's toothless ending just because they don't have another season to worry about, but who knows. Maybe Mika will become the show's newtype equivalent and that'll heal him to full or some other bullshit  I'd accept Mika getting a robo body, though.
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Dec 28, 2016 00:59
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Adel posted:I'd accept Mika getting a robo body, though. IBO season 3 spoilers 
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Dec 28, 2016 01:05
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Guy Goodbody posted:In episode 8, there are 5 babies on board the Turbines ship, Naze says they're all his from different mothers, and Lafter says the same thing later. They also talk about older children who are at school on Earth Wow I completely blanked on that. Well, okay them. That does put a damper on my interpretation/theory.
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Dec 28, 2016 01:05
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Adel posted:Yeah, I also worry that they'll take back the damage Mika's done to himself. I'm hesitantly optimistic that they won't repeat S1's toothless ending just because they don't have another season to worry about, but who knows. Maybe Mika will become the show's newtype equivalent and that'll heal him to full or some other bullshit I don't want bad things to happen to Mika just because Bad Things Are Good but I do feel that Mika's plot is so heavily focused around tragedy and the damage done to him that undoing it would sort of weaken it. Mika is interesting because he's so hosed up, so abused and his life is so awful that it really drives home that it isn't awesome when he goes blood-crying-super-Gundamjin-mode and in fact it's horrible, hosed up and ruining his life and it really drives home how awful it is to use him as a pilot and what little choice he has as his options are stripped from him. I suppose I do want to see IBO end as a tragedy not becaue I like tragedies but because the story is so tragic that anything less would feel like a step back from the natural edge.
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Dec 28, 2016 01:08
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Zebulon posted:Wow I completely blanked on that. Well, okay them. That does put a damper on my interpretation/theory. They also say at the end of season 1 that Naze isn't romantically involved with all of his "wives" and that it's their choice to be or not.
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Dec 28, 2016 01:12
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Adel posted:Yeah, I also worry that they'll take back the damage Mika's done to himself. I'm hesitantly optimistic that they won't repeat S1's toothless ending just because they don't have another season to worry about, but who knows. Maybe Mika will become the show's newtype equivalent and that'll heal him to full or some other bullshit I'd be down with a less hosed up MikaBorg. Or some sort of FMA-esque rejection of Barbatos being what is required to undo the damage. ImpAtom posted:I don't want bad things to happen to Mika just because Bad Things Are Good but I do feel that Mika's plot is so heavily focused around tragedy and the damage done to him that undoing it would sort of weaken it. Mika is interesting because he's so hosed up, so abused and his life is so awful that it really drives home that it isn't awesome when he goes blood-crying-super-Gundamjin-mode and in fact it's horrible, hosed up and ruining his life and it really drives home how awful it is to use him as a pilot and what little choice he has as his options are stripped from him. Mika deserves to have an ending that doesn't involve being a paraplegic murderhobo in my opinion. While the show has been dealing with just how hosed up being a child soldier is, especially one out of desperation or lack of other options, I think it'd be nice to say that being a hosed up, broken child soldier doesn't mean you can't ever have happiness once you have the means to break free of that life. If this requires him to reject Orga and fully acknowledge his hosed up relationship with him all the better. Rejecting Orga and leaving Tekkadan to go be a farmer with Kudelia and Atra is probably the most positive end to this series you could hope for, really. Belzac posted:They also say at the end of season 1 that Naze isn't romantically involved with all of his "wives" and that it's their choice to be or not. That does help things some. Might have been that I remembered that for some reason but forgot the plurality of babies.
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Dec 28, 2016 01:15
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To elaborate on what I said earlier,Edmonton fell flat for me because of 2 reasons in particular:1.the fact that no named heroes died was a big loving cop-out and 2. it made Ein-Bot a complete non-threat. Which is a shame,because I thought that the ldea of turning someone into a Dreadnought from Warhammer 40K (or Cain from Robocop 2) was kinda cool and interesting. But yeah,since the show apparently still treats Naze like Jesus himself and there are still little to no stakes,I might pass on S2. At least I can watch a good Real Robot show:Votoms.
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Dec 28, 2016 01:23
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I'm sorry, but there's something practically eldritch about the way you're using spaces.
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Dec 28, 2016 01:52
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Xy Hapu posted:I'm sorry, but there's something practically eldritch about the way you're using spaces. It's in his title too. It's mesmerizing. VolticSurge posted:To elaborate on what I said earlier,Edmonton fell flat for me because of 2 reasons in particular:1.the fact that no named heroes died was a big loving cop-out and 2. it made Ein-Bot a complete non-threat. Which is a shame,because I thought that the ldea of turning someone into a Dreadnought from Warhammer 40K (or Cain from Robocop 2) was kinda cool and interesting. But yeah,since the show apparently still treats Naze like Jesus himself and there are still little to no stakes,I might pass on S2. At least I can watch a good Real Robot show:Votoms. I'd give you a bit of poo poo about this since the character you're complaining about has had all of two scenes this season and also finally did something somewhat interesting, but Votoms is awesome so nevermind.
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Dec 28, 2016 02:01
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ImpAtom posted:I don't want bad things to happen to Mika just because Bad Things Are Good but I do feel that Mika's plot is so heavily focused around tragedy and the damage done to him that undoing it would sort of weaken it. Mika is interesting because he's so hosed up, so abused and his life is so awful that it really drives home that it isn't awesome when he goes blood-crying-super-Gundamjin-mode and in fact it's horrible, hosed up and ruining his life and it really drives home how awful it is to use him as a pilot and what little choice he has as his options are stripped from him. A huge part of Mika's story is that a lot of the damage done to him is absolutely and completely self-inflicted and if he somehow snapped out of it and realized that he can control his own fate if he's willing to just stop hiding behind Orga as an excuse to be a weapon he'd be able to mitigate a significant portion of it, though. Under this lens, it is plausible for Mika to achieve some semblance of recovery provided he comes to understand and accept that he's a person and not a weapon. The Hashmal fight makes this really clear that Mika has crossed the line from being a weapon out of absolute necessity and has entered the realm of being a weapon because it makes life simpler for him. Despite being explicitly ordered to stand down, Mika's response to this order was "no gently caress you" and then he rocketed into the fight and went SSJ4 as his very first action. He didn't try letting the others fight it, nor did he try fighting it without unleashing the Barbatos; it wasn't an Edmonton situation where he was on the verge of death and unleashing the Barbatos was a last moment panic button to avoid death. When McGillis tried to support him, his response was to blow McGillis off completely to fight alone. As a result he won by nearly killing himself and his reward was becoming a paraplegic, and then his reaction to becoming a paraplegic is to be thankful because it means he doesn't have to think about things anymore. Nobody is doing this to Mika, Mika is doing it to himself. Orga is immensely guilty for enabling this behavior, but the impetus for it is coming entirely from Mika's messed up head. I think it would be grim to the point of being a complete turnoff to have the plot arc of a character who is a suicidal child end with him succeeding at suicide. Kanos fucked around with this message at 04:12 on Dec 28, 2016 |
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Dec 28, 2016 04:06
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That's a good analysis. In the Hashmal fight, Mika ignored Orga's orders not to fight, but Orga obeyed Mika's orders not to fight. Orga suggested that he could go out in his new custom Shiden and Mika completely shot that idea down. Mika made a decision years ago to follow Orga to the better world, and now both of them are trapped by that. Mika refuses to stop being a weapon, and Orga can't stop finding bigger things for Mika to slay
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Dec 28, 2016 04:14
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Sam Faust posted:IBO season 3 spoilers I think that kinda could work as an ending, assuming they want to go something other than complete tragedy with Mika. Give him enough rope that he can walk around a little, and place the Barbatos, disarmed and partially dismantled, in the middle of the Griffon farm. Seems like a reasonable enough middle ground. Mika's permanently crippled away from the Barbatos, can't leave, reliant on others to even get some loving groceries... but he's got a simple life, and it's something he can be happy with that isn't an endless stream of violence, burning himself piece by piece to hurt his enemies just a little more. Not that it feels like there are any guarantees with this show, but it's something that fits with the foreshadowing earlier in the season, at least.
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Dec 28, 2016 05:06
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I also don't want a bad ending for Mika out of any sense of Bad Things Are Always Cool  , I just appreciate endings that stick to the general tone of the show. Like IBO's tone is very much, "Mika is the King of Murder but how he got there and what it does to him has a price" and by making his actions completely free of any consequences at the end feels cheap and undercuts the tone of Mika's character. Whoever suggested Mika using Barbatos as farming equipment gave a great example of a happy ending that's still in line with IBO's tone without being cheap. I'll also admit to a bias for bittersweet endings when it's appropriate; I prefer the original FMA ending + movie and I pretend the True Finale to Kamen Rider W never happened because even though it hurts, those endings are more satisfying. It's what I'm hoping we'll get. As an aside, does anyone else pronounce/read the abbreviation "IBO" as "aibo(相棒)"? It fits too well to be a coincidence 
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Dec 28, 2016 05:49
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Well let's ask Tomino, the creator of Gundam how he feels about this conversation.quote:Despite his predilection for killing off several main characters during the final phases of his shows, producer Yoshiyuki Tomino allowed [name withheld] to live, saying "life was a heavier punishment for her."
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Dec 28, 2016 08:49
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isn't Barbatos sitting in the middle of a farm like the centerpiece of the image taking up half of the very first ending
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Dec 28, 2016 11:53
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I'm not sure that the conflict they've set up allows for a cheap cop-out. Kudelia's trying to make a world without war. Mika has realised that his entire skill set would be useless in such a world, leaving him as a crippled, barely-literate child, so he's given up and is literally trying to destroy his body in order to get better at his current job because he sees no alternatives. If he's cured (maybe by a powered exoskeleton rigged to his Alaya-Vijnana System) or something, that just means he has to face what he's been running away from and readjust to a new world he's fundamentally un-equipped for. If he's fully cured and still gets to be a soldier, that means Kudelia's failed and the world is going to poo poo. If he's not cured... well, that's bad enough in and of itself. The consequences have already happened. Even if Mika makes a full mental and physical recovery, he has been brought as low as a human being can be. Seriously, when you guys say 'I hope they don't chicken out here', how do you even imagine them doing that?
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Dec 28, 2016 16:17
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Darth Walrus posted:. Seriously, when you guys say 'I hope they don't chicken out here', how do you even imagine them doing that? By not actually following through on the consequences set up. Which I think is a reasonably justifiable fear considering the end of last season was Tekkadan on a one-way train to disaster-and-revengetown, with Biscuit begging them to stop and then ironically dying and fueling the flames more only to have it turn out entirely gravy for Tekkadan with minimal losses that nobody lingers on. Having to watch multiple episodes of Merribit's terrified fear for the children followed by it basically getting shrugged off in the last episode of S1 And people keep excusing it with "Well, they had to be prepared for Season 2" but that doesn't give me a lot of confidence when that means they were scared of making drastic enough consequences they'd be hard to write around in a sequel because now I have to wonder if they're going to do it again so that Mika is still perfectly available to pilot Barbatos Full Demon in the OAV about space dragons or whatever.
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Dec 28, 2016 16:27
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Darth Walrus posted:I'm not sure that the conflict they've set up allows for a cheap cop-out. They can always do something that's a non sequitur. That's why it's called a cheap cop out and not nicer words.
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Dec 28, 2016 16:36
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ImpAtom posted:By not actually following through on the consequences set up. Which I think is a reasonably justifiable fear considering the end of last season was Tekkadan on a one-way train to disaster-and-revengetown, with Biscuit begging them to stop and then ironically dying and fueling the flames more only to have it turn out entirely gravy for Tekkadan with minimal losses that nobody lingers on. Having to watch multiple episodes of Merribit's terrified fear for the children followed by it basically getting shrugged off in the last episode of S1 The consequences in S1 were a danger that bad poo poo would happen. The consequences here are that bad poo poo has already happened. Mika isn't just heading down a bad path, he's already there. He's half-paralysed, suicidal, and devoid of skills that don't involve killing people. Shying away from things getting worse would still mean that things are pretty loving awful. Again, in what specific ways do you see them going back on this that won't cause anyone to lose out in important ways?
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Dec 28, 2016 16:43
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Darth Walrus posted:The consequences in S1 were a danger that bad poo poo would happen. The consequences here are that bad poo poo has already happened. Mika isn't just heading down a bad path, he's already there. He's half-paralysed, suicidal, and devoid of skills that don't involve killing people. Shying away from things getting worse would still mean that things are pretty loving awful. Again, in what specific ways do you see them going back on this that won't cause anyone to lose out in important ways? Mika is paralyzed through bullshit A-V plot magic and it would be absolutely trivial for that to get reversed through any number of simple plot devices considering it's only happening because he's turning into a Gundam due to nanomachine spine magic. It would not be the first or last time a series introduced a seemingly long-term lingering plot problem for the protagonist only to undo it once the appropriate amount of drama was wrung from it. It's entirely too easy for me to imagine shows glossing over consequences or finding cheap outs. It's happened enough (including in IBO) that I don't think the cynicism is unjustified.
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Dec 28, 2016 16:46
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My impression was that Mika was still planning for a non-war future at the beginning of S2 and only doubled down on the "weapon 4 lyfe" mentality when he realized he had to go full throttle with Barbatos again to beat the MA. He knew the result of that would lead to losing more of his body and that he'd probably need to do it again (or have it available as an option). He's not running away from the world Kudelia can create; he's already proven that he can learn to live in it by slowly becoming literate and his farming experiments. It's more that he's making the tactical decision that Full Throttle Barbatos is more important than his future and is willingly sacrificing himself for the "greater good" (aka Tekkadan). My faith in anime endings is poo poo right now because the shows I've been watching the past couple seasons have all dropped the ball in some major way, and even though this is probably the best S2 a gundam show has had in a while, there are still enough signs that have me weary (S1's ending, the back to back Ride fakeout, MA death toll was nameless farmers and Iok's dudes). The mid season climax was fantastic with the loss of Aston, Takaki peacing out, the whole story of the Tekkadan earth branch and how it ended, that's what I want for the rest of S2 and they are not delivering it. They're going back to making "safe" decisions (with the exception of Mika) and a lot of foreshadowing that poo poo's gonna go down and we are gonna see the major consequences of everyone's actions, but until they start delivering I'm gonna worry.
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Dec 28, 2016 16:47
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ImpAtom posted:Mika is paralyzed through bullshit A-V plot magic and it would be absolutely trivial for that to get reversed through any number of simple plot devices considering it's only happening because he's turning into a Gundam due to nanomachine spine magic. It would not be the first or last time a series introduced a seemingly long-term lingering plot problem for the protagonist only to undo it once the appropriate amount of drama was wrung from it. It's entirely too easy for me to imagine shows glossing over consequences or finding cheap outs. It's happened enough (including in IBO) that I don't think the cynicism is unjustified. There's no way in hell Mika isn't getting some mid-season upgrade to get him mobile again, because you can't have your darling pretty-boy protagonist laying in a cot with only one working arm for 12 episodes. The fangirls won't like it, for one .I still reckon his mid-season upgrade is going to be another Whisker, or some kind of rebuild of his Whiskers to handle whatever a "proper" AV connection is. You can't tell me we haven't seen a Gundam go full-power for the last time, and Mikazuki doesn't really have much left to lose.
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Dec 28, 2016 16:52
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Realistically, I think Mika isnt even the main protagonist anymore. There's a dynamic between him and Orga, but the S2 has way less focus on him.
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Dec 28, 2016 16:57
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Neddy Seagoon posted:There's no way in hell Mika isn't getting some mid-season upgrade to get him mobile again, because you can't have your darling pretty-boy protagonist laying in a cot with only one working arm for 12 episodes. The fangirls won't like it, for one I don't know, I imagine the fangirls would be okay with it if it involved many tender scenes of Orga helping take care of him.
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Dec 28, 2016 16:58
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The whole Orga/Mika pairing is too creepy for me, so of course it's probably super popular And we all know the real pretty boy of Tekkadan is Eugene 
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Dec 28, 2016 17:07
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Of course it's creepy. What else could it be. Everything is creepy.
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Dec 28, 2016 17:23
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Adel posted:My impression was that Mika was still planning for a non-war future at the beginning of S2 and only doubled down on the "weapon 4 lyfe" mentality when he realized he had to go full throttle with Barbatos again to beat the MA. He knew the result of that would lead to losing more of his body and that he'd probably need to do it again (or have it available as an option). He's not running away from the world Kudelia can create; he's already proven that he can learn to live in it by slowly becoming literate and his farming experiments. It's more that he's making the tactical decision that Full Throttle Barbatos is more important than his future and is willingly sacrificing himself for the "greater good" (aka Tekkadan). This has been building for a while. His reaction to Kudelia neutralising the most powerful armed force in the solar system with a speech was to express frustration at his own powerlessness. It's mentioned that his experiments keep failing, and the toll his new disability is taking on him is obvious through a million tiny things. It's pretty clear that the Hashmal just gave him an opportunity to go down a path he's been considering for a while. I believe he even asked what place there'll be for him in the new world a few episodes ago.
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Dec 28, 2016 17:28
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Darth Walrus posted:His reaction to Kudelia neutralizing the most powerful armed force in the solar system with a speech was to express frustration at his own powerlessness. If you mean when she televised a speech with McMurdo's help in season one then I'm pretty sure his only reaction was admiration of what she could do so easily, not to bemoan what he couldn't do. I just went back and re-checked it and his sentiment was to express astonishment that something "they", not "him", but a collective "they", including the enemy, were fighting so much over could be stopped so easily by her words. There's no frustration there unless he expresses it later and I'm forgetting it.
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Dec 28, 2016 18:15
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Belzac posted:Well let's ask Tomino, the creator of Gundam how he feels about this conversation. Why did you withhold the name. It's Katejina right.
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Dec 28, 2016 18:25
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MonsterEnvy posted:Why did you withhold the name. It's Katejina right. Mostly so we don't end up in general Gundam discussion hell again.
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Dec 28, 2016 18:52
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Also cause it applies to every surviving character from any UC Tomino show except the Shangri-la kids.
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Dec 28, 2016 20:32
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Belzac posted:Well let's ask Tomino, the creator of Gundam how he feels about this conversation. It's rather disingenuous to present that quote as a blanket statement from Tomino on character death, rather than his feelings about one character in particular. Especially when the character it's most likely referring to is part of the Gundam show that uses character death most heavily throughout the show to add tension, raise stakes, establish threat and/or rub in that war is kind of lovely. Tomino's feelings re: character death have almost certainly changed since that time, but they didn't change till at least Turn-A as far as Gundam shows go, or maybe Brain Powered if you're sticking to his shows in general. Acting like that's his feelings on use of character death and it's importance or impact in general is being dishonest really. tsob fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Dec 28, 2016 |
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Dec 28, 2016 20:49
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