|
The thing is that those who are just asking questions are usually not doing so in good faith. They're sealioning, which is easily spotted because the questions asked are easily researched on your own, such as 'What is sexism?' or even 'What is a woman?'
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2016 14:00
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 21:42 |
|
|
Hi all! I'm going to talk about silencing today. It's come up in the thread a bit, since it's pretty common and widely experienced, but I figure I can give a bit more of a 'theoretical' perspective to it. What is silencing, you ask? Silencing is when a woman cannot express something she otherwise would be able to--she has the words, the ability to speak them, a conversational partner(s) who is theoretically listening, but for some reason there is no uptake on the words. A stark example (from Rae Langton's work on silencing) is rape culture: our culture silences women's refusals, by asserting "actually, she enjoys it," or "she really means yes," etc. A woman can say "no", but her words have no assertive power. Her voice is silenced because the words she utters don't actually do what words are supposed to do. Her intention is erased and ignored, her words ignored or taken to mean something else. But beyond the stark case, there's tons of other instances of it. For instance, gaslighting can be a form of silencing: making a speaker question her competency means that the assertive power of her words is reduced or eliminated. So is the ever-constant phenomenon of men speaking over women, men speaking for women, men intimidating women into silence, etc. All these have in common is that a woman speaks but finds they do not have impact (or in the case of intimidation, she finds that she cannot speak at all). Their words, apparently, don't do what they're supposed to--there is no uptake. (We can categorize all these and build a fancy taxonomy but I'm not gonna go that far here). So when people wonder why women aren't more assertive, maybe the real answer is that in many cases they're actually trying to be assertive and failing, because their voices are being silenced? Silencing is insidious because it eliminates women's perspectives. Recall earlier when Sharkie cited data that said if women spoke 30% of the time men felt they dominated conversation? Men are used to women not speaking, and contribute to this by making their voices not heard. So when women do speak up, they're violating the "unspoken rules", so to speak, of conversation: they're not being silent, which is what's expected of them, so men do their part to silence them. It's unconscious in most cases, too. I'm not going to really talk about silencing in the context of sex and consent but most of this applies 5,000% there: no means no, yes means yes, and pay attention to your partners holy gently caress how is this that hard. How silencing works is a really complicated question, one I won't go into here (in any event there's gonna be big disagreement over it--this is a constant theme in feminist thought, which is a good thing--getting things right is important). One question I will go into is that of positive action one can take. As a man, I like knowing what practical action I can take in my daily life, as a participant or bystander, since I'm not going to singlehandedly upend sexism in society, but I'd like to do my part to make the world slightly better. And everyone can do these things! It's easy! Obviously there's the easiest thing: when a woman says something she means what she says and says what she means, and you should take it seriously. But you won't always be the 'target' of the assertive act; others might be there. So what do you do when someone's being silenced (I presume you're going to intervene in cases of unwanted attention, sexual assault, and rape, because you're not a monster)? Well, the first thing to do is reraise the point, pointing back to the original utterer. Raise the point again, and say something like "I think Sarah had a good point with X". If a man is speaking for a woman, on her behalf, work to include her in the conversation--it may be that she actually agrees with the man, but it's not about agreement. it's about being heard. If a man is speaking over a woman, speak over them and say "I think Luisa was trying to say something, actually" or something similar. And in case you think this isn't actually effective and that it's hopeless, these sorts of bystander strategies are known to work, and they've been adopted by women working in the goddamn White House to great effect. And if you're in a conversation, be reflective on what you're doing and saying. If you find yourself doing something that might be problematic in a conversation, maybe defer to your conversational partner a bit and have them give their input. Maybe everything is going fine and you're being a good person! In which case it can't hurt! Or maybe you're being a bit of an rear end in a top hat, in which case, well, stepping back and letting them give their input is definitely the right thing to do! Be sure to genuinely listen, by the way--men are told to pretend to listen by other men (my father's advice for my first date was to pretend to listen and agree with everything she says), and that women aren't really saying anything interesting or important (when women complain about their day, they don't want advice, they just want to vent, so just pretend to listen, it's not very important), and this is a form of silencing since she's not getting any uptake from someone who should be receptive. I'm certainly not an expert on this topic but it's an interesting one, and I think it's under-explored as a general phenomenon--and it's a perfect route to reflecting on your own behavior and how it impacts others. blackguy32 posted:Good feminist allies at least put in effort to research stuff regarding feminism instead of bogging people down with a hundred questions that have answers easily available. What tends to happen is people exhaust themselves answering questions that never stop coming. Ghost of Reagan Past fucked around with this message at 15:43 on Dec 28, 2016 |
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2016 15:40
|
|
|
blackguy32 posted:Good feminist allies at least put in effort to research stuff regarding feminism instead of bogging people down with a hundred questions that have answers easily available. What tends to happen is people exhaust themselves answering questions that never stop coming. I think most of these strangely phrased questions are "trick questions" designed to elicit something from feminists that could be twisted to be anti-male. However, I do think that we are definitely going to have a thread largely oriented to male feelings about feminism, because this is such a male-dominated site. I don't mind so much. Open-minded male insights into gender issues can be interesting.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2016 16:12
|
|
|
BarbarianElephant posted:I think most of these strangely phrased questions are "trick questions" designed to elicit something from feminists that could be twisted to be anti-male.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2016 16:14
|
|
|
blackguy32 posted:Good feminist allies at least put in effort to research stuff regarding feminism instead of bogging people down with a hundred questions that have answers easily available. What tends to happen is people exhaust themselves answering questions that never stop coming. Most non-activists (i.e. most people) cannot and will never read a meaningful amount of activism related literature no matter whether the issue is important because time is finite.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2016 17:18
|
|
I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
|
blowfish posted:Most non-activists (i.e. most people) cannot and will never read a meaningful amount of activism related literature no matter whether the issue is important because time is finite. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Feminism-Very-Short-Introduction-Introductions-ebook/dp/B000SH830O/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr= If people can't take an hour out of their day to read a 170 page book, or even five minutes to google an answer to a specific question they have, then gently caress 'em, we don't need them. Nobody's asking them to read the entirety of the Feminist canon, from Mary Wollstonecraft to Laurie Penny, all that is asked is that if they have a genuine desire to engage they at least take a very, very brief period to learn the fundamentals so that basic questions like "What is patriarchy" or "Women are still oppressed?" are not something that time needs to be wasted on.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2016 17:30
|
|
|
blowfish posted:Most non-activists (i.e. most people) cannot and will never read a meaningful amount of activism related literature no matter whether the issue is important because time is finite. Why would they read a thread then. Why would their valuable time need to be spent posting in a feminism thread.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2016 17:39
|
|
|
Rush Limbo posted:The thing is that those who are just asking questions are usually not doing so in good faith. They're sealioning, which is easily spotted because the questions asked are easily researched on your own, such as 'What is sexism?' or even 'What is a woman?' I understand not having the time, energy, or even just the desire to teach the basics over and over again, but that can't (and there is no need) be justified that with "well, they'll figure it out on their own anyways". They manifestly have failed to do that.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2016 18:19
|
|
|
twodot posted:This is a genuinely confusing attitude to me. I can't imagine the average person who needs or wants an answer to "what is sexism?" coming to any sort of good conclusion by performing their own research. Like yes it is easy to research in the sense that typing "what is sexism?" into a search bar is easy, but if that search lands them on a dictionary, or Bob's Megachruch's Lessons On The Role Of Women, they're not going to learn the lesson you wanted them to learn (and actively refused to teach them). Have you considered reading the op before posting?
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2016 18:22
|
|
|
stone cold posted:Have you considered reading the op before posting? Considering how many times you've edited the OP since your original pointlessly rushed one have you thought that maybe a better solution would be to close this thread and reopen an identical one with a fully fleshed out OP? You could even reserve the second post for additions.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2016 18:35
|
|
|
I do wonder if a 'feminism for clueless newbies' thread might be useful for those folks who do learn best through conversation. It could be both a handy general resource and a way to ensure that folks can chat about feminist issues here without spending every thirty seconds explaining what the hell they're talking about.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2016 18:35
|
|
|
Ghost of Reagan Past posted:Be sure to genuinely listen, by the way--men are told to pretend to listen by other men (my father's advice for my first date was to pretend to listen and agree with everything she says), and that women aren't really saying anything interesting or important (when women complain about their day, they don't want advice, they just want to vent, so just pretend to listen, it's not very important), and this is a form of silencing since she's not getting any uptake from someone who should be receptive. It's very strange coming from a background without any men in it, hearing stuff like this. I mean yeah I sort of agree that sometimes people just want to vent and if you can't offer advice you can at least offer a sympathetic ear but the operative word is sympathetic, which requires listening. Do you feel that there is an age related distinction in this sort of weird sexual segregation? Again I don't really have a very good perspective given I have near zero male presence in my life but I can't imagine many people my age going round actually internalizing this weird idea that women and men are separate species. But then my social circles were always fairly integrated gender-wise. Does it still proliferate?
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2016 18:35
|
|
|
Rush Limbo posted:https://www.amazon.co.uk/Feminism-Very-Short-Introduction-Introductions-ebook/dp/B000SH830O/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr= It is ridiculously telling that you think most people can read 170 pages of feminist literature in an hour.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2016 18:39
|
|
|
Rush Limbo posted:https://www.amazon.co.uk/Feminism-Very-Short-Introduction-Introductions-ebook/dp/B000SH830O/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr= The average person needs a three sentence soundbite (and that's pushing it) about what a particular feminist issue that someone talked about within earshot on their way to work is about.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2016 18:46
|
|
|
Zachack posted:Considering how many times you've edited the OP since your original pointlessly rushed one have you thought that maybe a better solution would be to close this thread and reopen an identical one with a fully fleshed out OP? You could even reserve the second post for additions. Hm, well to be honest, I didn't think I'd need the op to be that big, but I also didn't expect this much trolling.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2016 18:46
|
|
|
Ghost of Reagan Past posted:Be sure to genuinely listen, by the way--men are told to pretend to listen by other men (my father's advice for my first date was to pretend to listen and agree with everything she says), and that women aren't really saying anything interesting or important (when women complain about their day, they don't want advice, they just want to vent, so just pretend to listen, it's not very important) IDK What you posted about silencing is really useful to keep in mind.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2016 18:48
|
|
|
stone cold posted:Hm, well to be honest, I didn't think I'd need the op to be that big, but I also didn't expect this much trolling. 1) it's tyool 2016 on the internet, how naive must you be 2) don't confuse people who ask basic things because they really don't know what you're going on about with trolls
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2016 18:49
|
|
|
The Kingfish posted:It is ridiculously telling that you think most people can read 170 pages of feminist literature in an hour. Were it something like The Female Eunuch, yeah I'd probably find that quite challenging. I assume most people would. This is literally a "Feminism for Idiots" book that briefly touches on the history of feminism and some of the broader topics it covers. It's designed to be a quick read that gives a brief overview and answers the ridiculously banal questions that people who literally know nothing about feminism have about it. Assuming people can't or don't want to read this in their lunch hour or whatever, and their time is so precious they can't spare that amount of time, they could perhaps pursue some of the more succint videos on youtube that give a Feminism 101 lesson. Anita Sarkeesian's videos are generally quite good at this (one of the many legitimate complaints she has is that her videos are very basic, which is the point) There's also Kristi Winters who delves into more advanced topics but also has very basic introductions for people Assuming your time is even more precious than that and you can't even spare the time to watch a video, then you can multitask and listen to one of the many podcasts out there that discuss feminism. Basically you have to really work at it to be as willfully ignorant about the subject as some of the posters in this topic have been. It could be that they were beamed down onto this planet last night and are still figuring things out, or they could just be acting in bad faith.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2016 18:52
|
|
|
stone cold posted:Hm, well to be honest, I didn't think I'd need the op to be that big, but I also didn't expect this much trolling. The first three pages of this thread are dominated by a conversation over one word that you included but did not explain and which a basic amount of Google research actually provides no conclusion to, only conflicting opinions from sources of unknown quality.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2016 18:52
|
|
|
blowfish posted:two points, which are not mutually exclusive Not going to empty quote but both of these times infinity. Also 3) people will come into the thread who disagree with you and that doesn't make them trolls.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2016 18:53
|
|
|
edit: nevermind
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2016 19:01
|
|
|
Jarmak posted:edit: nevermind Almost certainly for the best.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2016 19:03
|
|
|
Zachack posted:The first three pages of this thread are dominated by a conversation over one word that you included but did not explain and which a basic amount of Google research actually provides no conclusion to, only conflicting opinions from sources of unknown quality. Now see, the kind of people who should be posting in here should know the contention and baggage that come in the community from being a feminist ally, but also should get where the label comes from. This is not meant to be a feminism 101 thread. Also, reading list was always in the op, hth.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2016 19:07
|
|
|
stone cold posted:Hm, well to be honest, I didn't think I'd need the op to be that big, but I also didn't expect this much trolling. It's why I think a general 'what is feminism' basic-eduction thread for the busy, lazy, and/or terminally uninformed might be pretty handy. Remember, a serial sexual abuser is now the most powerful man in the world because a bunch of folks don't understand consent and why it's important. Somewhere that actually is for educating the hostile and clueless might be a pretty awful spot that I can understand most posters here won't want to touch, but it could also be very useful. I don't feel I have the education necessary to pull it off myself, but if someone else feels brave and stupid enough to give it a try, I'd be happy to lend all the help I can.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2016 19:09
|
|
|
Darth Walrus posted:It's why I think a general 'what is feminism' basic-eduction thread for the busy, lazy, and/or terminally uninformed might be pretty handy. Remember, a serial sexual abuser is now the most powerful man in the world because a bunch of folks don't understand consent and why it's important. Somewhere that actually is for educating the hostile and clueless might be a pretty awful spot that I can understand most posters here won't want to touch, but it could also be very useful. On the topic of consent, Jenner recently posted a lot about consent in an en thread, and we got to see just how bad the backlash is to any discussion of what consent is and how to approach it. Apparently trying to educate people is on par with being "hysterical".
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2016 19:57
|
|
|
stone cold posted:Now see, the kind of people who should be posting in here should know the contention and baggage that come in the community from being a feminist ally, but also should get where the label comes from. This is not meant to be a feminism 101 thread. icantfindaname asked if men can be feminists or only feminist allies, and the answer you edited into the OP is "there's disagreements on that". Doesn't that mean there is no clearcut Feminism 101 answer? If you do remake this thread as Zachak suggested, you really should make it more clear that it is a thread for experienced feminists only.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2016 20:20
|
|
|
Guy Goodbody posted:icantfindaname asked if men can be feminists or only feminist allies, and the answer you edited into the OP is "there's disagreements on that". Doesn't that mean there is no clearcut Feminism 101 answer? "should know the contention and baggage that come in the community from being a feminist ally, but also should get where the label comes from" can you read, friend?
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2016 20:28
|
|
|
stone cold posted:"should know the contention and baggage that come in the community from being a feminist ally, but also should get where the label comes from" I thought Feminism 101 questions would be basic questions with widely agreed upon answers in the world of Feminism. If whether or not men can be feminists is a question of much contention and baggage, then doesn't that mean it's not a Feminism 101 question?
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2016 20:33
|
|
|
Guy Goodbody posted:If you do remake this thread as Zachak suggested, you really should make it more clear that it is a thread for experienced feminists only. I'm trying out a new phrase for female circle jerk, I'm going with "clam tickle", thoughts? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2016 20:33
|
|
|
Pick posted:I'm trying out a new phrase for female circle jerk, I'm going with "clam tickle", thoughts? clam jam?
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2016 20:34
|
|
|
Is this the thread where goons out themselves as sheltered people of privilege and consider dancing/shaking your rear end as being cultural appropriation? That was very sad to see last time.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2016 20:46
|
|
|
Guy Goodbody posted:I thought Feminism 101 questions would be basic questions with widely agreed upon answers in the world of Feminism. If whether or not men can be feminists is a question of much contention and baggage, then doesn't that mean it's not a Feminism 101 question?
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2016 20:50
|
|
|
Thanks for my first ever red text, TB. Keep fighting the good fight.stone cold posted:Tb isn't slashie, and her posts have been helpful and productive in this thread. Where in this thread has she told anyone to kill themselves? Have you considered kicking out the trolls instead and getting more mods for d&d? 
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2016 20:53
|
|
|
wateroverfire posted:Not going to empty quote but both of these times infinity. Look up "siege mentality". It's incredibly relevant to online social justice "discussions". In the case of Feminism, there are enough dedicated misogynists trying to sabotage online Feminist discourse that many Feminists quickly lose their patience with people who aren't sufficiently ideologically-pure. There's little opportunity or desire to interact with people who aren't already completely onboard and well-equipped because those people are locked outside the fortress along with the misogynist hordes and there's little chance to let them in the gates without the enemy entering also. Hexmage-SA fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Dec 28, 2016 |
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2016 20:54
|
|
|
Hexmage-SA posted:Look up "siege mentality". It's incredibly relevant to online social justice "discussions". This seems to be part of it. I mentioned this earlier in the thread and think it bears repeating - yes, feminism is under attack. Yes, it's under attack on these very forums and in this very thread. Treating everyone who asks a question as a likely troll is just a bad way to be, for the thread, its participants, and the poster who legitimately wanted a question answered. It's safe, sure, but does it foster community and healthy discussion? I think there's room to budge there.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2016 20:59
|
|
|
Deified Data posted:Thanks for my first ever red text, TB. Keep fighting the good fight. Yep tb is definitely the only one exasperated with you, you cretin.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2016 21:08
|
|
|
Deified Data posted:This seems to be part of it. I mentioned this earlier in the thread and think it bears repeating - yes, feminism is under attack. Yes, it's under attack on these very forums and in this very thread. When the question was prefaced by "this is an impossible question" and "please tell me what feminism is today" that's not acting in good faith, that's an idiot man coming here and wanting us to do his homework for him.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2016 21:10
|
|
|
stone cold posted:When the question was prefaced by "this is an impossible question" and "please tell me what feminism is today" that's not acting in good faith, that's an idiot man coming here and wanting us to do his homework for him. And given that you are trying to educate an insufficiently feminist world to be more feminist, doing his homework for him is exactly what you need to do.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2016 21:13
|
|
|
blowfish posted:And given that you are trying to educate an insufficiently feminist world to be more feminist, doing his homework for him is exactly what you need to do. 
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2016 21:13
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 21:42 |
|
|
blowfish posted:And given that you are trying to educate an insufficiently feminist world to be more feminist, doing his homework for him is exactly what you need to do. How tedious. It's not like there's a reading list in the op, or anything. Gold star for you.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2016 21:13
|
|