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Obi wan also looks at anakins power levels but yeah. It's a good way of showing ("show don't tell!" Goons always say) that they Jedi don't understand the force and are corrupt.
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Dec 28, 2016 21:21
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Basically I understand why Nolan spends one hour of every movie doing basic exposition .
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Dec 28, 2016 21:26
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Vegg220 posted:It's not even stated that he killed those Jedi, just that he has a collection of lightsabers. That's the most likely explanation, but he could have taken them off prisoners or Jedi killed by robots, stolen them, etc. You seem to be confused about several things. A lightsaber is a Jedi's life - if the enemy of Jedi has some, it means he has taken their lives. Unless he's the big scary proto-Vader... antiques collector? No, that's absurd, and there are ways to understand facts in a film that don't rely on explicit exposition. Jedi doing sweet acrobatic flip jumps while fighting is not something that particularly needs explanation. It's a distinctive style that takes a lot of practice, indicating that Jedi put a lot of work into things that distinguish them, such as wearing robes and living in a temple. (For that matter, even if we do draw the defensible connection between sweet acrobatic flip jumps and prophecy, since when in fiction has being able to see the future ever translated to being able to prevent it?)
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Dec 28, 2016 21:26
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Leto II prevents the death of humanity by foreseeing it I guess.
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Dec 28, 2016 21:28
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Bongo Bill posted:since when in fiction has being able to see the future ever translated to being able to prevent it? Terminator 2.
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Dec 28, 2016 21:29
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Phylodox posted:Terminator 2. But doesn't Skynet still go online anyways in another form?
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Dec 28, 2016 21:30
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euphronius posted:Obi wan also looks at anakins power levels but yeah. It's a good way of showing ("show don't tell!" Goons always say) that they Jedi don't understand the force and are corrupt. Except that there's nothing in the films to indicate that midichlorians aren't real. Lol that it's such a terrible writing decision that the best excuse they can come up with is that the characters belief in it was wrong even though there is no reason to believe this
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Dec 28, 2016 21:30
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I said come in! posted:Qui Gon Jinn had his own intrepretation of the force and it was batshit crazy. No one else brings up midichlorians but him. euphronius posted:Obi wan also looks at anakins power levels but yeah. It's a good way of showing ("show don't tell!" Goons always say) that they Jedi don't understand the force and are corrupt.
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Dec 28, 2016 21:30
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Vegg220 posted:Except that there's nothing in the films to indicate that midichlorians aren't real. Lol that it's such a terrible writing decision that the best excuse they can come up with is that the characters belief in it was wrong even though there is no reason to believe this you should see episodes 2 and 3. It doesn't go so well for the Jedi. Anakin turns out to turn to the sith because - in part - of the Jedi orders incompetence in understanding the force.
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Dec 28, 2016 21:32
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Midichlorians are real, and strong, and my friends. But the Jedi seem to have forgotten some of the important differences between measurable psychic powers and the fundamental interconnectedness of all things.
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Dec 28, 2016 21:33
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I said come in! posted:But doesn't Skynet still go online anyways in another form? Not in Terminator 2.
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Dec 28, 2016 21:33
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No one is arguing midochlorians arent real or that anakin didn't power levels off the charts.
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Dec 28, 2016 21:34
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Phylodox posted:Not in Terminator 2. This is true, the inevitable is just delayed.
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Dec 28, 2016 21:35
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I said come in! posted:Qui Gon Jinn had his own intrepretation of the force and it was batshit crazy. No one else brings up midichlorians but him. Palpatine does, and Qui Gon sends a blood test to Obi Wan for analysis on the ship's computer (because the Queen's ship would certainly be equipped with Jedi blood analysis software) who confirms that his midichlorian levels are huge and biggerer than Yoda's, which indicates that Yoda was also tested at some point
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Dec 28, 2016 21:36
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euphronius posted:you should see episodes 2 and 3. I wouldn't wish this on anyone. Mods?
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Dec 28, 2016 21:37
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Bongo Bill posted:A lightsaber is a Jedi's life If this were true Obi Wan and Anakin would have died many times in the PT. It's nonsense. A laser sword is just a tool. Your weapons. You will not need them.
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Dec 28, 2016 21:38
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Rogue One had the balls to have a Episode III reference.
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Dec 28, 2016 21:39
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I said come in! posted:This is true, the inevitable is just delayed. Only if you look to Terminator 3. Terminator 2 is a refutation of The Terminator's closed loop of predetermination, positing that knowing the future gives us the power to change it. The further movies are just waffling back and forth between "no, you can't!" and "yes, you can!" and will continue to do so until they stop being profitable.
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Dec 28, 2016 21:39
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sassassin posted:If this were true Obi Wan and Anakin would have died many times in the PT. Obi-wan is a silly warmonger, while Yoda would later after the clone wars realize this isn't a good policy to have.
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Dec 28, 2016 21:40
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Phylodox posted:Only if you look to Terminator 3. Terminator 2 is a refutation of The Terminator's closed loop of predetermination, positing that knowing the future gives us the power to change it. The further movies are just waffling back and forth between "no, you can't!" and "yes, you can!" and will continue to do so until they stop being profitable. I couldn't finish Genesis :/ but I liked Terminator Salvation and I should be shamed.
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Dec 28, 2016 21:41
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My impression of Grievous, ignoring the cartoons because I haven't seen them anyway, is that he is a good general and did manage to kill some number of Jedi either himself or through his command of his forces and so is a real threat. Episode 3 is just when he is finally confronted by Obi-Wan and Anakin, who are the best of the best of the Jedi and he gets completely outclassed by them.
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Dec 28, 2016 21:43
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sassassin posted:If this were true Obi Wan and Anakin would have died many times in the PT. They do often save each other's lives. Anakin's is damaged but repaired, and later he gets a new one from the red team, and Obi-Wan starts telling everyone he died. Swords are extremely potent symbolism.
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Dec 28, 2016 21:44
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I said come in! posted:I couldn't finish Genesis :/ but I liked Terminator Salvation and I should be shamed. Nobody should be shamed for liking a movie. This thread is tirelessly devoted to defending the Star Wars prequels. I unironically love the Masters of the Universe movie. Who cares?
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Dec 28, 2016 21:44
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I enjoy Knowing, the modern classic of the sci fi genre starring Nicolas Cage. Edit: Perfectly appropriate for the top of the page I say
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Dec 28, 2016 21:46
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Bongo Bill posted:They do often save each other's lives. Anakin's is damaged but repaired, and later he gets a new one from the red team, and Obi-Wan starts telling everyone he died. Swords are extremely potent symbolism. Luke rejected the power of the laser sword and in doing so achieved final victory over the Dark Side.
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Dec 28, 2016 21:47
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Shiroc posted:My impression of Grievous, ignoring the cartoons because I haven't seen them anyway, is that he is a good general and did manage to kill some number of Jedi either himself or through his command of his forces and so is a real threat. Episode 3 is just when he is finally confronted by Obi-Wan and Anakin, who are the best of the best of the Jedi and he gets completely outclassed by them. Obi Wan isn't the best of the best. He gets owned despite a numbers advantage against Maul and Dooku, twice. Yoda and Mace are better than him, at the very least. Grievous loses to him without Anakin
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Dec 28, 2016 21:49
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Obi wan beats anakin and grievous in the same movie which is pretty good. We should look up his power levels to make sure tho.
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Dec 28, 2016 21:57
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Bongo Bill posted:Midichlorians are real, and strong, and my friends. But the Jedi seem to have forgotten some of the important differences between measurable psychic powers and the fundamental interconnectedness of all things. Exactly. The midichlorian count is accurate: Anakin really is prodigiously talented, beyond most "ordinary" Jedi. And the prophecy is correct: Anakin does indeed restore balance to the Force and destroy the Sith. Qui-Gon makes his share of mistakes (mostly in that he's all too eager to use his mind control powers against Boss Nass, Jar Jar, and Watto), but I think there's a lot to be said for his philosophy. His main beef with the Order is that he thinks they spend too much time worrying about the future, about maintaining the Order's position of power in the galaxy, and not enough time focusing on the good that they can do right now. In Otoh Gunga, Qui-Gon takes the time to bargain for Jar Jar's life when he doesn't have to. When he goes to Tatooine, he outright says, "We didn't come here to free slaves," and yet he risks his mission to go out of his way to free one slave while he's there. He does this over the objections of his companions because he feels that it's the will of the Force. Now, you could say that Qui-Gon's actions are deeply self-serving and that he only helped Anakin because he looked like a valuable weapon. But Qui-Gon is the only Jedi in TPM who seems to care about Anakin as a person. He's a gentle and supportive father figure who tries to help Anakin understand his abilities. And where the Council fears Anakin's great power, Qui-Gon knows that Anakin is a wonderfully kind, selfless boy, so Qui-Gon has every confidence in him. Unfortunately, the Jedi as an institution are ruled by their fear. Darth Maul will destroy us. The Separatists will destroy us. If anyone finds out about our weaknesses, everyone will destroy us. And this institutional cowardice takes them to insane extremes. Challenging the status quo will destroy us. Confronting our doubts will destroy us. Acknowledging the love we have for others will destroy us. Helping one young man deal with his very human emotions will destroy us. So even though every individual Jedi we see is basically a decent person trying to do the best they can with what they know, they fail, because what they know is wrong. And any hope of someone coming along to change their mindset and avert disaster died with Qui-Gon. (Obi-Wan really tries. He even knows in his heart that he loves Anakin, and if he had found it in himself to tell the poor kid that, things might have turned out differently. But his Jedi training did a very good job of teaching him not to voice such things.)
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Dec 28, 2016 21:58
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Here is the key to understand Star Wars: Literally every single thing a Jedi Master says is a lie or wrong. Every single line, without fail.
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Dec 28, 2016 22:03
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I read Qui-Gon as someone who acts wisely but speaks foolishly. He agitates against but ultimately accedes to the dogma of the Order, but when he stops thinking about his duties he actually does listen to his feelings and follows them unhesitatingly. He's someone who lets the Force carry him to the Chosen One, but still verifies his power level. He's the middle ground between the principled apostate Dooku (whose antipathy toward the obviously flawed establishment led to his becoming a pawn of evil) and the consummately orthodox Obi-Wan (whose attachment to the establishment led to his own downfall). He's also between them in the chain of instruction.
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Dec 28, 2016 22:11
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Phylodox posted:Nobody should be shamed for liking a movie. Unless it's Battlefield Earth.
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Dec 28, 2016 22:16
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Cingulate posted:Mitochondria are universal. Midichlorians are brought up as a non-universal, specific, distinct moment: Anakin has a lot more of them than others. This is the difference between you and a fruit fly having both neurons, and only your neocortex being capable of understanding complex language. Except with Mitochondria you don't get Jedi but weird mutant monsters. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPyR9qgcdAU
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Dec 28, 2016 22:17
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I finally got a chance to catch R1 today. Remember that joke in Bojack where they just scan his head and make a movie without him? R1 proved to me that this is now possible.
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Dec 28, 2016 22:20
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Powered Descent posted:Unless it's Battlefield Earth. Battlefield Earth is hilarious.
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Dec 28, 2016 22:34
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Vegg220 posted:Obi Wan isn't the best of the best. He gets owned despite a numbers advantage against Maul and Dooku, twice. Yoda and Mace are better than him, at the very least. Grievous loses to him without Anakin It's cool how transparently your issue with the prequels is really that the Jedi weren't epic and badass enough. So just the idea that this robot could possibly take down multiple Jedi is offensive and impossible, even if the only way around it is to pretend that all his words are lies and actually he just scavenges old battlefields or something.
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Dec 28, 2016 22:38
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Bongo Bill posted:I read Qui-Gon as someone who acts wisely but speaks foolishly. He agitates against but ultimately accedes to the dogma of the Order, but when he stops thinking about his duties he actually does listen to his feelings and follows them unhesitatingly. He's someone who lets the Force carry him to the Chosen One, but still verifies his power level. That is one of the more interesting takes on Qui Gon too. So Jedi he chafes under the institution and how it ties back to Dooku's disillusionment and eventual fall. Of course I think everything about Dooku is interesting, since he not only abandons the Jedi Order but also reclaims his hereditary noble title. He probably did actually believe he could restore the Republic to an imagined golden age when it wasn't ruled by the Sith but by Senators with titles like Princess. A true aristocrat. He basically has the same plan as Anakin: eventually use the power given to them by Palpatine against him and establish their own just government run by the "right kind of people." And then they both get used and discarded as soon as the new model shows up. Luke only breaks the cycle because he throws down his sword and lets Palpatine kill him instead of taking the place of the fallen apprentice.
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Dec 28, 2016 22:41
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ImpAtom posted:Here is the key to understand Star Wars: Nah, Yoda drops some sanguine truth bombs on Luke on Dagobah. This might jar with whatever is in the PT but gently caress the PT. Star Wars was better off without it.
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Dec 28, 2016 22:47
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Mecha Gojira posted:Basically, what I'm saying is when you say droids/ships/cities aren't people, you're displaying the same chauvinistic contempt as Qui Gon Jinn, known rear end in a top hat. I like the idea that the Death Star is sentient but incredibly lazy so the people have to shoot the giant laser themselves.
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Dec 28, 2016 22:49
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Bongo Bill posted:I read Qui-Gon as someone who acts wisely but speaks foolishly. He agitates against but ultimately accedes to the dogma of the Order, but when he stops thinking about his duties he actually does listen to his feelings and follows them unhesitatingly. He's someone who lets the Force carry him to the Chosen One, but still verifies his power level. Obi-Wan has a lot of his master in him, then. He's always ready with a rule to cite or a teaching to quote, but when it comes down to it he doesn't actually care about staying within his mandate or enforcing the rules about attachment or any of that. Unfortunately, that makes him a massive hypocrite. We get to ROTS, and he knows what the Order is doing to Anakin is wrong. He knows it. And he votes against it. But ultimately he puts his trust in the only family he knows, reasoning that these fine masters can't all be wrong. I remember this great scene from the novelization where the Council is debating whom to send after Grievous. quote:"Agreed." Mace Windu looked around the half-empty Council Chamber with a deepening frown. "And one last touch. Let's let the Chancellor know, through Anakin, that our most cunning and insightful Master, and our most tenacious, is to lead the hunt for Grievous." I find this moment very endearing, but it also gets at Obi-Wan's problem. Like Anakin, he has always been worried about living up to someone else's expectations. He doesn't think he's been nearly as good a master as Qui-Gon was. So when Obi-Wan recognizes what is really true and just and good, he doesn't believe in himself enough to act on it.
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Dec 28, 2016 22:51
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Dooku seems like he would've fit right in with the Rebellion, considering their only on screen goal appears to be restoring the nobility to their titles and ending the Empire's (racist) meritocracy. Is the deleted scene of Greivous capturing a jedi around? I'm curious where it would've been placed in the movie.
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Dec 28, 2016 22:52
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