Like so many waves eroding the cliffs of the patriarchy (FEMINISM THREAD)

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Like so many waves eroding the cliffs of the patriarchy (FEMINISM THREAD)

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Sharkie: Feb 4, 2013; by Fluffdaddy

proletarian_pixie posted:

...We have the tendency to retaliate, emotionally and rhetorically if not physically. Yet at the same time, I still feel angry that they made a choice to simply stop working with me rather than telling me what I did wrong so we could move forward together.

I guess what I'm getting at is that--when it comes to expressing opinions, I really think we should be socializing AFAB people closer to the way we currently socialize AMAB people, rather than the reverse--i.e. everyone should say what they think all the time. Outspokenness is a good thing and shouldn't be considered a "masculine" trait--much less "toxic masculinity". Yes, men--and those, like me, who are on the MTF spectrum but are still working through the effects of our masculine socialization--will have to get better at listening and accepting criticism so that women can feel safe doing this. But shouldn't there be a reciprocal responsibility for AFAB people to speak their criticisms more often so the rest of us have a chance to learn and improve?

What do you think--do these feelings have any legitimacy, or are they just male-socialized biases I will have to unlearn? I genuinely want feedback here because I take leftist organizing seriously and want to be better at so situations like what happened at my university don't happen again.

It can totally be frustrating whenever communication breaks down, but, and I'll be blunt, I think some of those feelings are misplaced, sorry :shrug:

. I get it, if I've done something that bothered or upset people, I'd want to know, too, like most people! And it's of course good to be mad at a situation where women don't feel able to speak out. But try not to take it too personally, instead, think about what you can do going forward to create a space that encourages women to do this and makes it safe for them to do so. As far as the "responsibility" on thepart of afab women, well of course you know why that's not entirely fair, as the pressure to be silent isn't, at the root of it, coming from them. And also, do you really know why they didn't feel like speaking up? There are all sorts of reasons both personal and perhaps within the organization that might have caused that aside from bog-standard socialization.

I guess channel your anger at the real problem, our patriarchal culture, and work on what the organization could have done differently to encourage more women, cis or trans, to speak out.

# ? Dec 29, 2016 00:26

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# ? May 28, 2024 03:40

Colin Mockery: Jun 24, 2007; Rawr

proletarian_pixie posted:

In the spirit of getting this thread back on the rails...

I've been thinking a lot about gender socialization lately, due to the fact that I am a trans woman who has lately had to come to terms with the reality that, despite my gender identity and expression, I am still a person who was socialized male, with ongoing consequences for my behavior. I live in an extremely messy manner. I express my political opinions on whatever topic freely and loudly. If someone does or says something that bothers me, I tell them so to their face.

Rationally, I am aware that it is unreasonable to expect people who are socialized female to behave in these same ways after society has taught them the opposite their whole life. Yet there is still a part of me that resents it when assigned-female-at-birth people don't act these ways. To give a concrete example: in my experience with organizing spaces, I've sometimes found out after the fact that something I said or did bothered a woman I was working with, and rather than telling me so, they simply disengaged from the space. This actually may have played a significant role in the collapse of a socialist organization I tried to help launch at my university. Obviously there are good reasons why AFAB people would choose this course of action--AMAB people aren't known for being good at taking criticism. We have the tendency to retaliate, emotionally and rhetorically if not physically. Yet at the same time, I still feel angry that they made a choice to simply stop working with me rather than telling me what I did wrong so we could move forward together.

I guess what I'm getting at is that--when it comes to expressing opinions, I really think we should be socializing AFAB people closer to the way we currently socialize AMAB people, rather than the reverse--i.e. everyone should say what they think all the time. Outspokenness is a good thing and shouldn't be considered a "masculine" trait--much less "toxic masculinity". Yes, men--and those, like me, who are on the MTF spectrum but are still working through the effects of our masculine socialization--will have to get better at listening and accepting criticism so that women can feel safe doing this. But shouldn't there be a reciprocal responsibility for AFAB people to speak their criticisms more often so the rest of us have a chance to learn and improve?

What do you think--do these feelings have any legitimacy, or are they just male-socialized biases I will have to unlearn? I genuinely want feedback here because I take leftist organizing seriously and want to be better at so situations like what happened at my university don't happen again.

Right, so, there's two questions here that I'm seeing:

1. Should we socialize people to be more outspoken or less outspoken?

and

2. How should I, as an organizer, deal with people who in the face of perceived/potential conflict choose to withdraw rather than to educate?

For the former, I think men are currently being socialized to be too outspoken (as they're outspoken about things they should really shut their loving faces about if they don't know anything), and agree with OwlFancier's opinion that women could generally stand to be more outspoken, but we should try to ease up on how much aggression we encourage in general.

For the latter, unfortunately, this is the world we live in and we live in a world where many women aren't comfortable with the idea of trying to change a space they don't like as opposed to leaving the space. It is, frankly, neither safe nor fun for them to try changing a space (as that can often lead to a strong backlash from the person they are trying to talk to). Educating people, even when they want to be educated, can often be exhausting and it's completely unfair to expect to shift that burden of emotional labor onto someone less involved (you're the owner of the organization, they're just a member/volunteer) in the space than you are.

You are not entitled to someone's time -- which means it's okay if some people choose, in the face of conflict, to resolve the situation by avoiding further conflict instead of plowing through the problem. There are some women who do prefer to plow through the problem instead of avoiding it, and those women are better suited for leadership positions and will be able to contribute more to some sort of shared organization, but I wouldn't frame that as a "responsibility" and I would definitely not expect all women to act in this way.

Ultimately, it boils down to "if you're the founder, the buck stops with you. It's your job to make the environment one that encourages people to share feedback and resolve conflicts by discussing them instead of avoiding them. Even if you successfully do that, you still won't be able to please everyone, so just try your best and don't let it get to you if that wasn't enough for some people".

Also this is a very interesting topic so thank you for bringing it up.

# ? Dec 29, 2016 00:27

Sinnlos: Sep 5, 2011; Ask me about believing in magical rainbow gold

Hexmage-SA posted:

Thank you. It's odd to me that one would expect to have a discussion for Female Feminists only on a public debate and discourse forum that is itself not explicitly dedicated to Feminism. I'd think a dedicated Feminist forum with strict moderation would be more conducive for facilitating discussion that isn't intended for outsiders.

The value of having a thread like this is manifold. One of those values is that it gives people, like me, an opportunity to listen and learn. Having an in-depth discussion between experts in a public setting allows non-experts to glean something from it.

# ? Dec 29, 2016 00:28

Ms Adequate: Oct 30, 2011; Baby even when I'm dead and gone
You will always be my only one, my only one
When the night is calling
No matter who I become
You will always be my only one, my only one, my only one
When the night is calling

botany posted:

Feminism is not a video game.

It was just the first thing that came to mind, it was not intended to be a perfect like-for-like equivalence. Thus "bad comparison".

e; and yeah to stress, I don't think it's a bad thing at all to have a more advanced discussion where people less informed can watch and, hopefully, put in with actually useful comments and questions now and again. I'd like to think my fairly sophomoric post about chores and stuff fits into that designation (and note that the supposedly unreasonable TB had no problems giving me some more info and thoughts in a friendly and helpful manner, maybe actual good faith questions don't upset people :v:

). I was just (perhaps pointlessly) suggesting a small group of people are failing to read the OP, but are otherwise asking stuff in good faith, not really as a point for anyone to act on but just musing about how threads go the way they do. Anyway we're deep in talking about talking instead of talking about feminism so I'll shut up, just wanted to be clear that if I'm saying anything stupid, assume stupidity over malice.

Ms Adequate fucked around with this message at 00:53 on Dec 29, 2016

# ? Dec 29, 2016 00:45

stone cold: Feb 15, 2014

Wendigee posted:

I've been really bored because I lost my gaming computer...

I watched all 3 seasons of Transparent on amazon which is like all about trans people and feminism and lesbians and bi and it was a decent show but good lord some of the feminists in it are not nice to trans at all.

I haven't seen the show because I don't have Amazon, but some people definitely have reactionary feelings towards transwomen. Are all of them as terrible as TERFs, no, but I think going forward we should be striving for the rights of all women, and I don't think it's productive for us as feminists to shut the gate on transwomen. What hostile reactions were there specifically? Also, were these characters on the show, or actual feminists in real life?

# ? Dec 29, 2016 00:46

Defenestration: Aug 10, 2006; "It wasn't my fault that my first unconscious thought turned out to be-"
"Jesus, kid, what?"
"That something smelled delicious!"; Grimey Drawer

Hexmage-SA posted:

Seriously, thinking we can solve sexism by telling people to self-educate is about as realistic as thinking we can solve obesity by telling people not to eat so much.

I put forth that the purpose of this thread is not to "solve sexism" nor would a thread with that stated topic be productive.

Nor is the post your transformation thread about solving obesity, and that is OK. Feminist spaces don't need to be held to impossible standards to be allowed to exist

# ? Dec 29, 2016 01:34

Angepain: Jul 13, 2012; what keeps happening to my clothes

Hexmage-SA posted:

This is what I'm personally most interested in, but I get the feeling that finding viable ways to spread Feminist influence is ironically not welcome in the Feminism thread.

Seriously, thinking we can solve sexism by telling people to self-educate is about as realistic as thinking we can solve obesity by telling people not to eat so much.

I don't have much to contribute to this thread as a male dude other than "feminism is cool and good" and that the discussions so far that haven't revolved around talking about talking about feminism have been p. interesting, so I'll just throw this out here for you and go back to reading: Like threads about leftism are not the same as the effective leftism thread which is not the same as the actual actions one would take in "The Real World" to convert people to the great and objectively correct cause of leftism, we can have a discussion about feminist issues without needing to aim towards converting as many people as possible towards feminism. If you want to discuss what the best optimal way is to convert everyone to feminism then please feel free to start another thread about this, but from a personal selfish perspective I'd quite like to read a discussion about feminist issues that doesn't expect every post made to be optimised for individuals on the sceptical -> outright hostile spectrum. So basically/also what defenestration and Sinnlos and everybody said.

# ? Dec 29, 2016 01:45

Hexmage-SA: Jun 28, 2012; DM

proletarian_pixie posted:

In the spirit of getting this thread back on the rails...

I've been thinking a lot about gender socialization lately, due to the fact that I am a trans woman who has lately had to come to terms with the reality that, despite my gender identity and expression, I am still a person who was socialized male, with ongoing consequences for my behavior. I live in an extremely messy manner. I express my political opinions on whatever topic freely and loudly. If someone does or says something that bothers me, I tell them so to their face.

Rationally, I am aware that it is unreasonable to expect people who are socialized female to behave in these same ways after society has taught them the opposite their whole life. Yet there is still a part of me that resents it when assigned-female-at-birth people don't act these ways. To give a concrete example: in my experience with organizing spaces, I've sometimes found out after the fact that something I said or did bothered a woman I was working with, and rather than telling me so, they simply disengaged from the space. This actually may have played a significant role in the collapse of a socialist organization I tried to help launch at my university. Obviously there are good reasons why AFAB people would choose this course of action--AMAB people aren't known for being good at taking criticism. We have the tendency to retaliate, emotionally and rhetorically if not physically. Yet at the same time, I still feel angry that they made a choice to simply stop working with me rather than telling me what I did wrong so we could move forward together.

I guess what I'm getting at is that--when it comes to expressing opinions, I really think we should be socializing AFAB people closer to the way we currently socialize AMAB people, rather than the reverse--i.e. everyone should say what they think all the time. Outspokenness is a good thing and shouldn't be considered a "masculine" trait--much less "toxic masculinity". Yes, men--and those, like me, who are on the MTF spectrum but are still working through the effects of our masculine socialization--will have to get better at listening and accepting criticism so that women can feel safe doing this. But shouldn't there be a reciprocal responsibility for AFAB people to speak their criticisms more often so the rest of us have a chance to learn and improve?

What do you think--do these feelings have any legitimacy, or are they just male-socialized biases I will have to unlearn? I genuinely want feedback here because I take leftist organizing seriously and want to be better at so situations like what happened at my university don't happen again.

I generally think being outspoken and assertive is a good thing and that ideally everyone would be this way, but like you said it's hard to overcome early life experiences. I'm a cis male, but was mostly raised by my great-grandmother and mother and didn't get to spend much time with my father because he was always working or doing something with the National Guard. Even when I did start spending more time with him I primarily found him intimidating, aggressive and authoritative. I think the combination of these factors led to me developing a timid personality and a distrusting nature. I'm more assertive online because I feel safe behind anonymity, but in real life I nearly always gravitate towards good-natured women to associate with. I don't talk about my own interests for fear of being made fun of, and I only ever talk to men extensively if they both seem pleasant and I see or overhear them expressing interest in something I like.

I'd love to be more confident and outspoken, but even being in close proximity to or making eye contact with men who have a history of aggressive interactions makes my heart race with anxiety. The concept of toxic masculinity therefore makes perfect sense to me, but I don't know how to go about solving it. The best solution I've found so far is to respond to someone's aggressive speech with a comment that makes it seem like I'm not taking them seriously, such as "sure, man, cool, I'll keep it in mind."

Hexmage-SA fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Dec 29, 2016

# ? Dec 29, 2016 01:57

Octatonic: Sep 7, 2010

Sharkie posted:

It can totally be frustrating whenever communication breaks down, but, and I'll be blunt, I think some of those feelings are misplaced, sorry . I get it, if I've done something that bothered or upset people, I'd want to know, too, like most people! And it's of course good to be mad at a situation where women don't feel able to speak out. But try not to take it too personally, instead, think about what you can do going forward to create a space that encourages women to do this and makes it safe for them to do so. As far as the "responsibility" on thepart of afab women, well of course you know why that's not entirely fair, as the pressure to be silent isn't, at the root of it, coming from them. And also, do you really know why they didn't feel like speaking up? There are all sorts of reasons both personal and perhaps within the organization that might have caused that aside from bog-standard socialization.

I guess channel your anger at the real problem, our patriarchal culture, and work on what the organization could have done differently to encourage more women, cis or trans, to speak out.

I think if we're talking directly about organizing/groups, one of the best ways to address these issues is legitimately a systematic one. I know people rag on Occupy, but it was where I learned about stack/progressive stack for running meetings, and it's something that I've found useful for getting to hear kids that I don't normally in my classroom. Activism is thorny enough, but one of the additional challenges of campus groups is that a lot of participants are discovering politics, and their voice for the first time.

Octatonic fucked around with this message at 03:13 on Dec 29, 2016

# ? Dec 29, 2016 03:11

BarbarianElephant: Feb 12, 2015; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

One of the reasons that I really enjoy online debate is the "permission" to talk about things as aggressively as men do. I would never talk so aggressively in real life as I do here - it would make me very unpopular. And I would simply be too scared to bluntly disagree with some huge guy who was frothing with rage about politics.

However men have recently found some effective ways of using online methods to terrify and repress women online much as in real life (the hordes of GamerGate trolls and the alt-right.)

# ? Dec 29, 2016 03:27

stone cold: Feb 15, 2014

BarbarianElephant posted:

One of the reasons that I really enjoy online debate is the "permission" to talk about things as aggressively as men do. I would never talk so aggressively in real life as I do here - it would make me very unpopular. And I would simply be too scared to bluntly disagree with some huge guy who was frothing with rage about politics.

However men have recently found some effective ways of using online methods to terrify and repress women online much as in real life (the hordes of GamerGate trolls and the alt-right.)

Same, and I used to pose as a man elsewhere on the internet for this exact reason. I think it's important to have a carved out space where female voices can be heard precisely because of this marginalizing you've seen, and all of us have seen.

Also, when those alt-right dicks get doxxed and outed after they've harassed some poor woman who dares to disagree with them, it makes me very happy. Too bad there's so goddamn many of them. :sigh:

# ? Dec 29, 2016 04:41

Phyzzle: Jan 26, 2008

FactsAreUseless posted:

I wonder why this isn't happening in my "men's issues in a feminist lens" thread? Oh right, because that is a space explicitly set out for men, so men don't feel threatened by it and freak the hell out and come in to be like BUT WHAT ABOUT MY VIEWPOINTS because they see women talking, women who might even be happy to talk to each other without them around.

Guy Goodbody posted:

The men's feminism thread had a clearer focus from the beginning, as opposed to this thread, where stone cold had to repeatedly update the OP to narrow the scope of the thread.

Tiny Brontosaurus posted:

This is a textbook example of the assumed incompetence problem people were talking about earlier. You hate a woman talking, so a women talking must have done it incorrectly. If Stonecold hadn't updated her OP magically that would be proof of her incompetence. Thanks for providing the visual aid. I'm sure you'll provide many more.

But how are people making snap judgements based on Stonecold being a woman? I've seen nothing to indicate that Stonecold is not a man. The OP's of earlier feminist threads in D&D were always men.

e: Right, spoke a moment too late.^^

stone cold posted:

and I used to pose as a man elsewhere on the internet for this exact reason.

Phyzzle fucked around with this message at 05:33 on Dec 29, 2016

# ? Dec 29, 2016 05:29

stone cold: Feb 15, 2014

Phyzzle posted:

But how are people making snap judgements based on Stonecold being a woman? I've seen nothing to indicate that Stonecold is not a man. The OP's of earlier feminist threads in D&D were always men.

Hi! I am a woman, thanks~! Sorry if there was any ambiguity :3:

# ? Dec 29, 2016 05:30

Bar Ran Dun: Jan 22, 2006

Thanks for the responses several pages back.

# ? Dec 29, 2016 07:05

Tiny Brontosaurus: Aug 1, 2013; by Lowtax

Phyzzle posted:

The OP's of earlier feminist threads in D&D were always men.

Is that true because holy lol that explains so much.

# ? Dec 29, 2016 07:40

Good Canadian Boy: May 12, 2013

This thread is interesting but the amount of sexism TB throws around in her posting is really hypocritical.

Anyway, is TERF and any concepts related to it welcome in this thread seeing as people have talked about various and contradictory forms of feminism or is it some kind of out of bounds taboo topic here due to its exclusionary nature?

Given the hostile nature of this thread, I'd rather ask before beginning any discussion and being labeled a troll or something.

# ? Dec 29, 2016 08:41

stone cold: Feb 15, 2014

Good Canadian Boy posted:

This thread is interesting but the amount of sexism TB throws around in her posting is really hypocritical.

Anyway, is TERF and any concepts related to it welcome in this thread seeing as people have talked about various and contradictory forms of feminism or is it some kind of out of bounds taboo topic here due to its exclusionary nature?

Given the hostile nature of this thread, I'd rather ask before beginning any discussion and being labeled a troll or something.

I think discussion of the so-called 'gender realists' is okay, as long as you keep it a. respectful b. non-transphobic and c. bearing in mind that most, if not all of us think that transwomen are just as much women as the rest of us women lucky enough to be born the gender we feel.

# ? Dec 29, 2016 08:44

Sharkie: Feb 4, 2013; by Fluffdaddy

So what are your thoughts on the subject, Good Canadian Boy?

# ? Dec 29, 2016 08:59

the white hand: Nov 12, 2016; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Good Canadian Boy posted:

This thread is interesting but the amount of sexism TB throws around in her posting is really hypocritical.

Man it makes it tough, huh. How are you ever gonna get a job when women are talking poo poo on the internet?

# ? Dec 29, 2016 09:11

Tiny Brontosaurus: Aug 1, 2013; by Lowtax

Good Canadian Boy posted:

This thread is interesting but the amount of sexism TB throws around in her posting is really hypocritical.

Lol what the gently caress are you talking about. Amazing how threads get a "hostile nature" when they're trolled to poo poo by the same idiots who burst into flames every time they see a woman or minority talking.

# ? Dec 29, 2016 09:12

prismeclipser: May 2, 2008

proletarian_pixie posted:

In the spirit of getting this thread back on the rails...

I've been thinking a lot about gender socialization lately, due to the fact that I am a trans woman who has lately had to come to terms with the reality that, despite my gender identity and expression, I am still a person who was socialized male, with ongoing consequences for my behavior. I live in an extremely messy manner. I express my political opinions on whatever topic freely and loudly. If someone does or says something that bothers me, I tell them so to their face.

Rationally, I am aware that it is unreasonable to expect people who are socialized female to behave in these same ways after society has taught them the opposite their whole life. Yet there is still a part of me that resents it when assigned-female-at-birth people don't act these ways. To give a concrete example: in my experience with organizing spaces, I've sometimes found out after the fact that something I said or did bothered a woman I was working with, and rather than telling me so, they simply disengaged from the space. This actually may have played a significant role in the collapse of a socialist organization I tried to help launch at my university. Obviously there are good reasons why AFAB people would choose this course of action--AMAB people aren't known for being good at taking criticism. We have the tendency to retaliate, emotionally and rhetorically if not physically. Yet at the same time, I still feel angry that they made a choice to simply stop working with me rather than telling me what I did wrong so we could move forward together.

I guess what I'm getting at is that--when it comes to expressing opinions, I really think we should be socializing AFAB people closer to the way we currently socialize AMAB people, rather than the reverse--i.e. everyone should say what they think all the time. Outspokenness is a good thing and shouldn't be considered a "masculine" trait--much less "toxic masculinity". Yes, men--and those, like me, who are on the MTF spectrum but are still working through the effects of our masculine socialization--will have to get better at listening and accepting criticism so that women can feel safe doing this. But shouldn't there be a reciprocal responsibility for AFAB people to speak their criticisms more often so the rest of us have a chance to learn and improve?

What do you think--do these feelings have any legitimacy, or are they just male-socialized biases I will have to unlearn? I genuinely want feedback here because I take leftist organizing seriously and want to be better at so situations like what happened at my university don't happen again.

Okay, so I'll talk about this a tiny bit. I'm a woman who has in the past tried to engage men in conversation. Sometimes I get told not to talk back but what the usual response is this. The man I'm talking to will start talking louder, get in my personal space, and if that doesn't get me to back off, will threaten me. poo poo like "I will make you mind your own business. How about you shut up before you get punched? I can easily get you fired because I'm a man and my word means more then you." After awhile, you just disengage from anything heated because it isn't worth the personal cost to me to try and stand my own ground. Also, it's very easy to tell when someone is angry and angry people don't act rationally. You only need to get punched in the face once before you realize that yeah, that man may be all words, but he could punch you in the face. Do you want to get punched in the face or do you want to be quiet and be safe?

# ? Dec 29, 2016 11:48

botany: Apr 27, 2013; by Lowtax

Good Canadian Boy posted:

This thread is interesting but the amount of sexism TB throws around in her posting is really hypocritical.

lmao ~*~reverse sexism~*~

# ? Dec 29, 2016 12:45

Philip Rivers: Mar 15, 2010

Anything can be discussed via feminist analysis, including trans exclusion. Here's a hot take on trans exclusion: I think some of the older crowd is bitter (e.g. Cherrie Moraga is not really down with trans men and wants her machas to stay machas) and it's kind of understandable because they might have transitioned in a different life, and it's easier to be a guy than a butch girl.

# ? Dec 29, 2016 13:14

BarbarianElephant: Feb 12, 2015; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

There must BE some elderly feminists who are transphobic relics, but the younger, relevant crowd are all completely trans-positive. So I always feel it is not a well-intentioned argument when anti-feminists try to bring on the "But don't you feminists hate trans-people? Huh? OWNED! You aren't as tolerant as you think you are, you transphobic horrible people!" just as all the feminists under 50 are saying "That's not right, we completely welcome trans-women as women in our movement."

# ? Dec 29, 2016 15:23

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

BarbarianElephant posted:

There must BE some elderly feminists who are transphobic relics, but the younger, relevant crowd are all completely trans-positive. So I always feel it is not a well-intentioned argument when anti-feminists try to bring on the "But don't you feminists hate trans-people? Huh? OWNED! You aren't as tolerant as you think you are, you transphobic horrible people!" just as all the feminists under 50 are saying "That's not right, we completely welcome trans-women as women in our movement."

I disagree with this because even younger feminists have their racism issues, it is also likely that they could have anti transsexual issues.

# ? Dec 29, 2016 15:58

Defenestration: Aug 10, 2006; "It wasn't my fault that my first unconscious thought turned out to be-"
"Jesus, kid, what?"
"That something smelled delicious!"; Grimey Drawer

BarbarianElephant posted:

One of the reasons that I really enjoy online debate is the "permission" to talk about things as aggressively as men do. I would never talk so aggressively in real life as I do here - it would make me very unpopular. And I would simply be too scared to bluntly disagree with some huge guy who was frothing with rage about politics.

However men have recently found some effective ways of using online methods to terrify and repress women online much as in real life (the hordes of GamerGate trolls and the alt-right.)

I am constantly afraid that just the wrong person will see something I've written on twitter and let loose the hordes. I have specifically censored myself and not said something or replied to something because I was afraid of doxxing and death threats and people calling my employer

I don't know how female columnists do it. I'm glad they do but I see the horror stories about for example gamergate victims who had to explain what twitter was to the police. Only to be told "oh they're sending death threats? then don't go online." There is no protection.

# ? Dec 29, 2016 16:00

BarbarianElephant: Feb 12, 2015; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

blackguy32 posted:

I disagree with this because even younger feminists have their racism issues, it is also likely that they could have anti transsexual issues.

Individuals can always have racism issues. Feminism as a whole is very much linked to the whole movement that conservatives deride as "social justice warriors" in which people care deeply about any number of linked social justice issues that don't necessarily affect them personally (women's rights, gay rights, trans rights, anti-racism, disabled rights.) Including women of colour in feminism is a priority for most feminists right now. That doesn't mean there aren't some feminists who are massive racists. It's a big movement. .

# ? Dec 29, 2016 16:05

Gloryhold It!: Sep 22, 2008; Fucking
Adorable

blackguy32 posted:

I disagree with this because even younger feminists have their racism issues, it is also likely that they could have anti transsexual issues.

There are absolutely young "feminists" who are transphobic as gently caress. I use the scare quotes because I don't believe that you can honestly be a feminist while denying that some women are actually goddamn women.

# ? Dec 29, 2016 16:05

BarbarianElephant: Feb 12, 2015; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

Gloryhold It! posted:

There are absolutely young "feminists" who are transphobic as gently caress. I use the scare quotes because I don't believe that you can honestly be a feminist while denying that some women are actually goddamn women.

The main thing I've seen about trans issues in feminism is their unique and valuable insight into how men treat men and women differently. It's very eye-opening how transmen often feel that their voices are suddenly listened to with more attention in contexts like the boardroom after their transition, and transwomen sometimes feel like they get taken less seriously after transition.

# ? Dec 29, 2016 16:09

Snow Cone Capone: Jul 31, 2003

Tiny Brontosaurus posted:

Cool, barely into page 2 and already the most pressing feminist issue is male feelings. Since icantfindname, who is on my ignore list for being a huge bigot, incidentally, has had his answer maybe he can go off and chew on it by himself and not make this thread about him any longer? Men on the internet have a habit of seeing feminism threads as female attention dispensers, and it would be cool if people didn't let that happen here.

I am an activist in real life and one of the things I talk a lot about with people out there is concrete, achievable goals. With something as huge as patriarchy that can be hard, since it permeates everything and its causes and effects can be very hard to follow out. There's a kind of butterfly effect with societal biases - something as big as "why don't more women succeed in male-dominated fields?" is a river fed by tributaries so tiny people refuse to believe it could possibly matter, and get angry at the suggestion it does. Which is why I'd like to talk about the battlefront of my grandmother's generation of feminists, which has largely been forgotten by my own: Housework.

Ask any man who lives with a wife or girlfriend how much housework he does, and he'll usually say "about half," but taking stocks of all the domestic tasks that get done, that's almost never the case. Frequently a man is barely contributing to the work of keeping the home running at all, yet may feel his share of the chores is incredibly burdensome and he's selfless for putting up with it. Feminist men can be some of the worst offenders of this, because they know men should pull their weight, but the hidden sexism of their upbringing and their subconscious keeps them from really seeing how much work is actually done and who does it. If you ask a man about a household chore he doesn't do, he invariably says it doesn't "need" to be done - his wife or girlfriend only does it because she's so "picky," the silly woman.

Men tend to came the infrequent, showy tasks as their chores - cleaning the gutters might only need to be done once a year, and most importantly it's a concrete task with a satisfying finality when it's done. Not like laundry, dishes, wiping the countertops, vacuuming - a ceaseless grinding cycle of tasks that are never finished in the "don't have to do that again!" sense.

I have two articles I hope any cohabitating man will read. There's going to be some inevitable defensiveness, hysteria at being criticized, challenged, asked to think something new. Please don't post that here, it's not unique or informative, it's just growing pains you have to power through before a new idea can take roots in your brain.

Please also don't post to brag that you do, in fact, you'll have us know, contribute equally to the housework. Perhaps you even do more than the little lady! You're the one who needs to read this stuff most, because you're the one who doesn't even know all the work that needs to be done or who does it.

Here's a classic feminist piece, the best response I've ever seen to the reflexive "but you're just better at it, sweetie!" response men have about the chores they don't feel like doing. The Politics of Housework

Here's a blog post by a man who figured out the ingrained sexism he'd had regarding housework on his own. I haven't read the rest of his site, so if there's something impolitic in there I don't care. I like this post because he voices what I think is a pretty typical thought process men have about women "nagging" them about chores. The underlying assumption that poisons relationships and makes it impossible for men to see they're being sexist about chores is that women are always wrong and the things they want are stupid. You'll find this one lurking under a lot of sexism, really. It is nearly impossible to root out, because it's self-reinforcing. Men aren't being sexist when they assume women's thoughts are stupid and silly, they're just being level-headed and unbiased! Look how emotional this chick is getting when I tell her so, see, she was stupid and silly after all.

Anyway. She Divorced Me Because I Left Dishes By the Sink

I post these partly because men reading this thread in good faith might still have the impulse to whine "but what can I do?" You see us criticizing the structures of power, and you see yourself as powerless, and it's true. Odds are you're not a CEO cackling on the golf course about how no woman is ever going to make VP in your company, gat-dammit. But are you a man living with a woman who works just as hard as you, trying to succeed in a job just like you, who always has to put your dishes in the dishwasher for you because "who cares"? That's a drop of energy she has to burn and you don't, and those add up.

I wanted to quote this since it was posted pretty early and therefore may have been glossed over in the initial influx of "justify feminism to me!" posters, and it's a Really Good Post that also hit really close to home for me. While I managed to shape my rear end up and fix things, my SO actually moved out for a period of time a few years back because of tiny-seeming things like in that blog post, and what brought her back to me (and also improved the relationship 1000x in almost every way) was the same realization the guy came to - shame he couldn't fix things up, since it sounds like he actually learned something.

It's pretty crazy how even in an ingrained relationship where both people have a pretty solid understanding of each other, gender equality issues can still creep in and grow to the point of wrecking relationships beyond repair. So thank you TB for this post.

I hope this doesn't fall under "do my homework for me," but is there a good direction to go in if I'm interested in the next level of this idea? That is, if I'm trying to apply the idea of "little tiny-seeming things are directly connected to gender-biased roots that crop up and cause major problems" to the world around me and not just between my wife and I?
For example, I've noticed that one of the companies I work with a lot has a tendency to dump certain minor tasks on women in the group, even if they're equally positioned. Like, the last few times I've been over there for meetings, the lone woman on the project team (who has the same position as 2 men on the team) is always the one getting coffee for everyone, making sure everyone has a pen if needed, etc. How do I combat that in my own company, and what can I do when it's not my company/team? I don't know if it's my place to try to explain to a different employees about their ingrained gender biases. Lead by example I guess? I dunno. It's really pretty mind-boggling how even an uninformed dumbguy like me can see subtle misogynistic poo poo like that everywhere I look when I actually pay attention to it.

# ? Dec 29, 2016 16:19

BarbarianElephant: Feb 12, 2015; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

Kelp Me! posted:

Like, the last few times I've been over there for meetings, the lone woman on the project team (who has the same position as 2 men on the team) is always the one getting coffee for everyone, making sure everyone has a pen if needed, etc. How do I combat that in my own company, and what can I do when it's not my company/team? I don't know if it's my place to try to explain to a different employees about their ingrained gender biases. Lead by example I guess? I dunno. It's really pretty mind-boggling how even an uninformed dumbguy like me can see subtle misogynistic poo poo like that everywhere I look when I actually pay attention to it.

I'm a female coder and was one of the higher paid employees at the business that I used to work at. Once my boss was feeling kinda sexist and ordered me to make tea for the room. I did it with a grudging attitude because I was working on a coding problem. The secretary at our office rolled her eyes and told him "You know, that was the most expensive cup of tea you ever had!" And he didn't do it again.

Not sure if there's any good advice there but I still find it funny.

# ? Dec 29, 2016 16:24

Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

BarbarianElephant posted:

The main thing I've seen about trans issues in feminism is their unique and valuable insight into how men treat men and women differently. It's very eye-opening how transmen often feel that their voices are suddenly listened to with more attention in contexts like the boardroom after their transition, and transwomen sometimes feel like they get taken less seriously after transition.

Statements and books like this is part of what firmly solidified my developing feminism, for what its worth. There's a very fascinating insight available there.

e: Also those two "politics of housework" articles linked by TB are good reads.

# ? Dec 29, 2016 16:25

Gloryhold It!: Sep 22, 2008; Fucking
Adorable

BarbarianElephant posted:

I'm a female coder and was one of the higher paid employees at the business that I used to work at. Once my boss was feeling kinda sexist and ordered me to make tea for the room. I did it with a grudging attitude because I was working on a coding problem. The secretary at our office rolled her eyes and told him "You know, that was the most expensive cup of tea you ever had!" And he didn't do it again.

Not sure if there's any good advice there but I still find it funny.

That was definitely a good burn by your secretary. Also, I find it kind of funny how you phrased it that your boss was "feeling sexist". Like it was some kind of emotion. "Hey Bob, how are you today?" "Kind of sexist today Jim" "That sucks" "Yeah, I'm going to tell Jane to go back into the kitchen".

# ? Dec 29, 2016 16:35

Tiny Brontosaurus: Aug 1, 2013; by Lowtax

Kelp Me! posted:

I hope this doesn't fall under "do my homework for me," but is there a good direction to go in if I'm interested in the next level of this idea? That is, if I'm trying to apply the idea of "little tiny-seeming things are directly connected to gender-biased roots that crop up and cause major problems" to the world around me and not just between my wife and I?
For example, I've noticed that one of the companies I work with a lot has a tendency to dump certain minor tasks on women in the group, even if they're equally positioned. Like, the last few times I've been over there for meetings, the lone woman on the project team (who has the same position as 2 men on the team) is always the one getting coffee for everyone, making sure everyone has a pen if needed, etc. How do I combat that in my own company, and what can I do when it's not my company/team? I don't know if it's my place to try to explain to a different employees about their ingrained gender biases. Lead by example I guess? I dunno. It's really pretty mind-boggling how even an uninformed dumbguy like me can see subtle misogynistic poo poo like that everywhere I look when I actually pay attention to it.

Great question! For your office example, the simplest thing you could do is be the one to get the coffee and pens yourself. This may make the other men you work with subconsciously think of you as subordinate, and I don't know how to fix that, sorry, but it would give the women a break from filling that role.

I think you'd be a great candidate for employing amplification, which became well-known as the strategy Obama's female staffers used to make their voices heard in meetings. Obama's another good guy who would never be overtly sexist, but who let subconscious sexism permeate the way he ran meetings, so it seemed natural that men should talk over women and steal their ideas. The women in the room started combatting this by repeating a point their female coworker just made and most importantly, naming and thanking her. "I think Karen makes a great point there..." "Just to build off of what Jennifer said..."

It works so well. A teacher reading the black feminism thread tried it and saw her female students open up and get more engaged in class almost overnight. You're not in ideal circumstances for this strategy since you say you tend to only have one woman on the team. This may lead men to think you're speaking up for her because you're attracted to her ("white knighting," as will I'm sure be posted in this thread a thousand times), so you might spread the field a bit by referring to conversations you had with women who aren't in the meeting, or amplifying any other coworkers you notice get talked over or ignored (minorities are a good bet).

And I don't know what your corporate culture is like, but be mindful for office trends designed popularized by Silicon Valley dorks, because they often have no awareness that what they think is cool might be more burdensome on women. A stand-up meeting goes from casual and relaxed to physically painful if you're expected to wear heels to work, for example.

Edit: Writing that up just made me remember a time I was doing the women's work of meeting prep, sorting and stapling a huge pile of documents, and a man wandered in and asked me if he could help with anything. I was under a big time crunch so I said "Great! Help me staple these" and explained the sorting system, and he visibly blanched and backed out of the room mumbling about how "you're better at that than me." Poor little man hands can't operate a stapler :qq:

Tiny Brontosaurus fucked around with this message at 16:45 on Dec 29, 2016

# ? Dec 29, 2016 16:43

BarbarianElephant: Feb 12, 2015; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

If you are the woman prepping the documents, you can make sure your ideas are set off to best advantage.

Item 1: Jane's idea.
Item 2: Expansion on Jane's idea.
Item 3: Coffee and cake.
Item 4: Joe's idea (oops, left it in the copier room, shall I go get it?)

# ? Dec 29, 2016 16:57

Tiny Brontosaurus: Aug 1, 2013; by Lowtax

BarbarianElephant posted:

If you are the woman prepping the documents, you can make sure your ideas are set off to best advantage.

Item 1: Jane's idea.
Item 2: Expansion on Jane's idea.
Item 3: Coffee and cake.
Item 4: Joe's idea (oops, left it in the copier room, shall I go get it?)

Ha I've never worked anywhere where a woman's idea was valued enough to make it into the document in the first place.

:smith:

# ? Dec 29, 2016 16:58

Snow Cone Capone: Jul 31, 2003

BarbarianElephant posted:

I'm a female coder and was one of the higher paid employees at the business that I used to work at. Once my boss was feeling kinda sexist and ordered me to make tea for the room. I did it with a grudging attitude because I was working on a coding problem. The secretary at our office rolled her eyes and told him "You know, that was the most expensive cup of tea you ever had!" And he didn't do it again.

Not sure if there's any good advice there but I still find it funny.

Earlier this month one of the owners of my wife's company asked her to take him and his family's Christmas photos. Not my wife's male and underworking assistant, not the company's actual photographer (also male), but my wife, because he saw her taking photos at one of their trade shows once. She works 9-6 M-F and additionally needs to spend a good 1-3 hours every night cleaning up everyone else's fuckups on her laptop at home. No mention of compensation was made, and he asked her to take a half-day to do it.

Thankfully I think one of the other owners realized how hosed up and lovely that was and gave him an earful, but I was still like :gonk:

That actually leads me to another question: She's got tons of lovely stories like that from work, but one of my most recent realizations is how often I have a tendency to mansplain to her what she should do in such situations. It's super-frustrating to me sometimes, but I think just listening and commiserating is probably more helpful than "well you should have stood up for yourself, tell him you're busy as poo poo and don't have time to be his personal photographer" and the like. But is that really the best thing for me to do? I don't want to fall into the "I'm hearing but not really listening" trap; but it pains me to hear about that poo poo and have to choose between "yeah that sucks babe, gently caress that guy" and "let me tell you how you should respond" - they both seem kind of shallow/unhelpful.

Tiny Brontosaurus posted:

Great question! For your office example, the simplest thing you could do is be the one to get the coffee and pens yourself. This may make the other men you work with subconsciously think of you as subordinate, and I don't know how to fix that, sorry, but it would give the women a break from filling that role.

I think you'd be a great candidate for employing amplification, which became well-known as the strategy Obama's female staffers used to make their voices heard in meetings. Obama's another good guy who would never be overtly sexist, but who let subconscious sexism permeate the way he ran meetings, so it seemed natural that men should talk over women and steal their ideas. The women in the room started combatting this by repeating a point their female coworker just made and most importantly, naming and thanking her. "I think Karen makes a great point there..." "Just to build off of what Jennifer said..."

It works so well. A teacher reading the black feminism thread tried it and saw her female students open up and get more engaged in class almost overnight. You're not in ideal circumstances for this strategy since you say you tend to only have one woman on the team. This may lead men to think you're speaking up for her because you're attracted to her ("white knighting," as will I'm sure be posted in this thread a thousand times), so you might spread the field a bit by referring to conversations you had with women who aren't in the meeting, or amplifying any other coworkers you notice get talked over or ignored (minorities are a good bet).

And I don't know what your corporate culture is like, but be mindful for office trends designed popularized by Silicon Valley dorks, because they often have no awareness that what they think is cool might be more burdensome on women. A stand-up meeting goes from casual and relaxed to physically painful if you're expected to wear heels to work, for example.

Edit: Writing that up just made me remember a time I was doing the women's work of meeting prep, sorting and stapling a huge pile of documents, and a man wandered in and asked me if he could help with anything. I was under a big time crunch so I said "Great! Help me staple these" and explained the sorting system, and he visibly blanched and backed out of the room mumbling about how "you're better at that than me." Poor little man hands can't operate a stapler

Thanks for the advice! I think I already had a few brushes with amplification, though not with a gender-based goal - one of the programmers at another company we deal with is so timid at meetings that despite him being leagues smarter than the rest of his team, his contributions get minimized in the same way, so I've actually had to re-center the focus on him a few times in almost the same way! I'll be sure to keep that strategy in mind when appropriate.

Sadly, I'm in a weird position where I don't interact with female employees that much - my company is literally me and 2 other guys, and we deal heavily with HVAC manufacturers and distributors, which are some of the most stereotypically backwards-rear end boys club environments you can imagine. It's super-rare to see a non-secretarial/low-end administrative woman in any of these companies, which is a bummer. The woman in the previous example I mentioned is a rarity, and God bless her thick skin because one of her teammates will make a sexist crack about Eagles cheerleaders and you can almost hear the poor woman's teeth grinding as she laughs along :smith:

Snow Cone Capone fucked around with this message at 17:05 on Dec 29, 2016

# ? Dec 29, 2016 17:01

Amused to Death: Aug 10, 2009; google "The Night Witches", and prepare for

Gloryhold It! posted:

There are absolutely young "feminists" who are transphobic as gently caress. I use the scare quotes because I don't believe that you can honestly be a feminist while denying that some women are actually goddamn women.

I mean even on tumblr which is usually very trans positive there is a reasonably sized demographic of mostly young radfems. They may now be on the fringe ends of mai stream feminism vs in the 70s and 80s, but they do still exist.

Anyways though, on the subject of speech and personal space, as a trans person getting to experience the difference first hand in how much men interrupt you or talk over you or come into your space is the most "lolll"(for lack of better words) thing. Its so bad. I mean i never set out consciously looking for this, its just so conspicuous when it begins to happen after 20 something years of it never happening that you can't help but notice and be grated by it. And I know there's a man reading this right now thinking "well a man has interrupted me before or got all in my space." Of course they have, literally almost every person has done that to another person at some point in their life. But the level of frequency and intensity are worlds apart(and it sometimes comes with a nice icing of condescension)

# ? Dec 29, 2016 17:14

Tiny Brontosaurus: Aug 1, 2013; by Lowtax

Kelp Me! posted:

That actually leads me to another question: She's got tons of lovely stories like that from work, but one of my most recent realizations is how often I have a tendency to mansplain to her what she should do in such situations. It's super-frustrating to me sometimes, but I think just listening and commiserating is probably more helpful than "well you should have stood up for yourself, tell him you're busy as poo poo and don't have time to be his personal photographer" and the like. But is that really the best thing for me to do? I don't want to fall into the "I'm hearing but not really listening" trap; but it pains me to hear about that poo poo and have to choose between "yeah that sucks babe, gently caress that guy" and "let me tell you how you should respond" - they both seem kind of shallow/unhelpful.

The male gender issues thread is going around around with this mental block right now. I think there are two roots - our culture's sense of morality is very just-world, so if someone has a problem it's because they let it happen. Then people in privileged positions, like men, simply don't run into intractable, structural problems so much. They have a lot more freedom of choice - if your job is bad just get another job, etc. It makes it hard to see that venting about a problem is dealing with it, if you've reasonably determined that problem is not actually in your power to solve. In women's lives more often than men's lives sometimes things just suck and all you can do is manage your unhappiness about the sucking.

Also frustrating is men tend to really not get that a man and the woman doing the same action will get different results. A man is "assertive" when a woman is "bitchy." "Just tell them what's wrong" doesn't work if you know you get interrupted every time you open your mouth at work. Standing up for yourself when you're anything other than a straight white male is a very risky gamble. We all do it sometimes, we have to, but it's something you have to weigh the consequences of very carefully.

# ? Dec 29, 2016 17:17

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# ? May 28, 2024 03:40

BarbarianElephant: Feb 12, 2015; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

Amused to Death posted:

But the level of frequency and intensity are worlds apart(and it sometimes comes with a nice icing of condescension)

I find this insight very valuable. This often comes up when women complain about something in the context of internet abuse. Something like "Everyone gets flamed on the internet! Grow a thicker skin or take a break from the internet!" Without realizing that one nasty message a day is *very* different than 500 vile, threatening messages every day.

# ? Dec 29, 2016 17:18

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Like so many waves eroding the cliffs of the patriarchy (FEMINISM THREAD)

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