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Tesseraction posted:I think he's just more surprised by the puppy-training strategy. Rubbing his nose in it might actually be better than a housework rota after all
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Dec 29, 2016 16:11
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So if I'm reading all this right, the real problem is that men aren't socialized as women.
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Dec 29, 2016 16:16
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Good luck with your depression. Procrastination is bad, but you're not alone in dealing with it. Don't feel guilty, just work through it, you know? You deserve to be happy.Tesseraction posted:I think he's just more surprised by the puppy-training strategy.
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Dec 29, 2016 16:17
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the trump tutelage posted:So if I'm reading all this right, the real problem is that men aren't socialized as women.
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Dec 29, 2016 16:17
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rudatron posted:Come on, get real, this poo poo happens in actual relationships, it's just never called 'withholding rewards', even when that's exactly what it is. I'm just being blunt about it, using threats is just part of the negotation that goes on.
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Dec 29, 2016 16:18
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FactsAreUseless posted:You've had some terrible relationships. Nah. Saying you won't do something for your SO because they are acting like a jerk is normal and fine.
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Dec 29, 2016 16:20
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Eimi posted:My experience tends to lean on the side of lacking perspective. When I was younger I always had to be told to clean because I literally cannot tell when certain things are dirty, wood floors in particular. Now partially I tuned it out because my father was abusive as gently caress but I've never really interalized cleaning. It's made worse by my depression. If I'm not currently choking to death via dust it clearly doesn't need doing. Sometimes I can manage to clean every week but then my depression hits back and it becomes too bothersome. I know I should clean but by then it morphs into an excuse to hate myself or that I don't deserve anything not lovely. Depression is a whole different issue and please don't feel we are judging you on the basis of your gender/transition. Even the most incredibly clean people let standards slip when they are depressed; lack of energy is part of the illness. When you feel better enough to clean, if you can't tell whether a floor is dirty or not, just get into a regular habit of doing it once a month. That sort of thing doesn't get really disgusting unless neglected for literal months.
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Dec 29, 2016 16:20
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rudatron posted:Good luck with your depression. Procrastination is bad, but you're not alone in dealing with it. Don't feel guilty, just work through it, you know? You deserve to be happy. Thanks and I am in therapy it just doesn't feel like it's doing much. Almost want to see a psychiatrist now to see if I medication can help though I was on a wide does when I was younger to not much effect.
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Dec 29, 2016 16:20
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The Kingfish posted:Nah. Saying you won't do something for your SO because they are acting like a jerk is normal and fine.
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Dec 29, 2016 16:21
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the trump tutelage posted:So if I'm reading all this right, the real problem is that men aren't socialized as women. Seems to me that the real problem is that some men aren't socialized at all.
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Dec 29, 2016 16:24
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Eimi posted:Thanks and I am in therapy it just doesn't feel like it's doing much. Almost want to see a psychiatrist now to see if I medication can help though I was on a wide does when I was younger to not much effect. If you want to get the best out of therapy, here's some advice - you have to open up, and that takes work (and time). Keep track of your self-talk, take notice of all the little things, and then spill that out.
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Dec 29, 2016 16:26
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Cleaning is perfectly manly when done in manly contexts. The same guys who "don't see dirt" when at home would polish their gear to within an inch of its life when in the army and not see a contradiction.
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Dec 29, 2016 16:27
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BarbarianElephant posted:Depression is a whole different issue and please don't feel we are judging you on the basis of your gender/transition. Even the most incredibly clean people let standards slip when they are depressed; lack of energy is part of the illness. Thanks and don't worry about me feeling judged or anything, as hey I'm the one putting it out there. I more wanted to try and comment on how much this can be ingrained. Given that I really feel put in the middle of this issue by being on both sides. Like I feel a real pressure to clean now that I didn't feel as much before I began transitioning.
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Dec 29, 2016 16:28
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This all smacks of "it's not the responsibility of the oppressed to educate the oppressor", although more eye-rolly because we're talking about a situation where the Oppressor might not even recognize that there is a problem, and besides, according to some in this thread, women are typically not equipped with the tools to self-advocate and so shouldn't be expected to confront the man with the situation. What's even being argued about right now? I don't think anyone disagrees that men ought to do their fair share of housework. Some in this thread seem to be ascribing conscious malice in their failure to do so, and others seem to expect men to spontaneously achieve enlightenment on the matter because sitting down and hashing out the problem is variously robotic/mothering/exploitative/doomed. We have a concrete goal: teach men to value housework appropriately and to do their fair share. Never mind subjective standards of cleanliness, the issue is ultimately about the division of labor. Okay - what is an actually practicable way to achieve this?
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Dec 29, 2016 16:29
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Eimi posted:Thanks and don't worry about me feeling judged or anything, as hey I'm the one putting it out there. I more wanted to try and comment on how much this can be ingrained. Given that I really feel put in the middle of this issue by being on both sides. Like I feel a real pressure to clean now that I didn't feel as much before I began transitioning. It's perfectly possible to be a slob and 100% feminine  I've tried to use as much non-gendered language as I can because sometimes in a relationship it's the woman who is the slob and the man who is the one who picks up after her. My messy ex definitely got his slobbishness from his mother. His parents were separated and her house was filthy where his dad's was as clean as a new pin. I don't know if this was an issue for them (I didn't pry) but I could imagine so.
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Dec 29, 2016 16:32
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the trump tutelage posted:We have a concrete goal: teach men to value housework appropriately and to do their fair share. Never mind subjective standards of cleanliness, the issue is ultimately about the division of labor. Okay - what is an actually practicable way to achieve this?
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Dec 29, 2016 16:34
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Honestly not a bad idea, you get enough people to do that and you'll make your point.
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Dec 29, 2016 16:38
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FactsAreUseless posted:The last sentence definitely isn't true. The problem with this is similar to the issues you get with women negotiating wages: women often don't have the skills or social position to negotiate things up front like that. It also just isn't how moving in with someone works.
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Dec 29, 2016 16:45
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BarbarianElephant posted:Cleaning is perfectly manly when done in manly contexts. The same guys who "don't see dirt" when at home would polish their gear to within an inch of its life when in the army and not see a contradiction. I was going to say men can see dirt just fine when there's going to be a room inspection in the morning. I used to be bad about what you're talking about, my relationship has gone through phases. At first my wife was unemployed and I was working 12 hour days or worse, so it was very 1950s labor division I'd say something like "I'm too tired" and the response was usually something like "sit down I'll make you a drink". Then she got a job on base and daily upkeep stuff became part of my share of chores instead of big ticket weekend stuff and then "I'm too tired" became a fight. Basically that lasted a short time before we had a long talk about it and I realized I had to adjust my attitude and realize I wasn't the only one who was tired. Finally I got out and went to college and she has a high-powered career so it's totally flipped and I'm the one who's responsible for the house and she's the one that "helps". The naggee has become the nagger. Communication and mutual respect is the key. Frankly if you don't have that then you're hosed no matter the politics of the situation. Edit: thanks for learning new words so fast autocorrect Jarmak fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Dec 29, 2016 |
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Dec 29, 2016 16:51
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the trump tutelage posted:We have a concrete goal: teach men to value housework appropriately and to do their fair share. Never mind subjective standards of cleanliness, the issue is ultimately about the division of labor. Okay - what is an actually practicable way to achieve this?
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Dec 29, 2016 16:52
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rudatron posted:Honestly not a bad idea, you get enough people to do that and you'll make your point. No, it's useless, because they can go on doing just the housework that it suits them to do, while leaving their mess all over your own stuff.
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Dec 29, 2016 16:53
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Lt. Danger posted:I'd like to think this whole topic is a case of people talking past one another. Better communication isn't a magic bullet, but incidents of bad or dishonest communication are no reason to just shrug and blame some formless spectre of toxic masculinity. Giving "gutter-cleaning" and "weekly vacuuming" equal weighting is stupid in its own right; "Let's split housework equally" "Yeah sounds good" is a non-conversation that resolves nothing - of course the arrangement went sour, it didn't exist in the first place! You are assuming that if a problem exist it must be the woman's fault for not solving the problem well enough. If a man isn't doing his fair share it's the woman's fault for not communicating well. Why is it not the man's fault for not asking what chores need to be done and checking that he's doing a fair amount of them? Lt. Danger posted:The shirking partner is the one not communicating honestly - agreeing to a division of chores and then not doing it. If this partner is not able to commit to a basic arrangement that's been explicitly spelled out for them in writing, then maybe they are not capable of an equal relationship? Regardless, it has nothing to do with the efficacy of honest communication. So it's the woman's fault for choosing a bad partner. Lovely. Do you have any self-awareness at all? Do you think you might get any at any point? Because this thread was created to help men realize the exact problem with their thinking that you are exhibiting, but it doesn't seem like you picked up on that at all. BarbarianElephant posted:Cleaning is perfectly manly when done in manly contexts. The same guys who "don't see dirt" when at home would polish their gear to within an inch of its life when in the army and not see a contradiction.
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Dec 29, 2016 16:57
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Oh dear me posted:No, it's useless, because they can go on doing just the housework that it suits them to do, while leaving their mess all over your own stuff. A Buttery Pastry posted:I don't think you can completely ignore standards of cleanliness. If people's standards are very divergent, the additional work the slobbier party has to put in can go beyond what they'd have to do if they didn't have someone to "share the burden with". At which point they might be feeling like they were getting taken advantaged of despite the burden ostensibly being shared, since the other party just loaded a bunch of poo poo into the shared burden that benefits them alone/far more.
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Dec 29, 2016 16:58
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rudatron posted:Ahh, but you're thinking too small scale! Suppose you have a community, and suppose every single housewife in that community goes on strike. That is mass action my friend, and that sends a very different message. You're such a loving creep. Can you go back to the racism? That was honestly much better to deal with. rudatron posted:Well okay, but that means you need to have a negotiation about what the best standard of cleanliness is, for the both of you. Give and take, right? Tiny Brontosaurus fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Dec 29, 2016 |
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Dec 29, 2016 16:59
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Truly the only women who are burdened by an unfair share of the chores are "housewives" because this is 1955. Unfortunately, that means pulling a Lysistrata will be ineffective, because marital rape isn't illegal yet.
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Dec 29, 2016 17:00
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I don't think you can completely ignore standards of cleanliness. If people's standards are very divergent, the additional work the slobbier party has to put in can go beyond what they'd have to do if they didn't have someone to "share the burden with". At which point they might be feeling like they were getting taken advantaged of despite the burden ostensibly being shared, since the other party just loaded a bunch of poo poo into the shared burden that benefits them alone/far more. OK honestly how much extra poo poo is there to do, we have to be talking about a couple hours a week tops unless you have kids
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Dec 29, 2016 17:02
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A Buttery Pastry posted:If people's standards are very divergent, the additional work the slobbier party has to put in can go beyond what they'd have to do if they didn't have someone to "share the burden with". It can and should be more than they'd do on their own. I speak as a terrible slob who does almost no housework when I am living on my own. When I am sharing a living space, though, I do far more, because then my mess affects others. Putting my dishes by the sink might be convenient for me, but it can only be an inconvenience for everyone else in the household. I acquire a duty to clear my mess up, just because there are others around. And I can hardly expect to have someone help clean my mess up if I don't clear theirs up too. So slobs should absolutely expect to do more housework in a shared house.
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Dec 29, 2016 17:04
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rscott posted:OK honestly how much extra poo poo is there to do, we have to be talking about a couple hours a week tops unless you have kids Look at this poo poo. Again, you assume if there's a problem it must the the women who are wrong. Silly women's vaginas clog up their brains and make them hallucinate chores that don't exist. Or maybe they're just lying about chores to drag men down into their evil femi-lairs.
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Dec 29, 2016 17:04
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Look at this poo poo. Again, you assume if there's a problem it must the the women who are wrong. Silly women's vaginas clog up their brains and make them hallucinate chores that don't exist. Or maybe they're just lying about chores to drag men down into their evil femi-lairs.
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Dec 29, 2016 17:06
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Even if a task only takes 30 seconds, why should it always be her 30 seconds and not his? If it's really such a trivial task why is he throwing a fit instead of just doing it?
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Dec 29, 2016 17:07
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Yikes brae. How about you go shitblast on some other thread?
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Dec 29, 2016 17:07
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The Kingfish posted:Yikes brae. How about you go shitblast on some other thread? An actual klan member, everybody.
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Dec 29, 2016 17:08
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What if the husband is the cleaner one and the wife is the slob? Also same sex couples. This whole conversation is very focused on one specific scenario that may be more common but is far from exclusive.
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Dec 29, 2016 17:08
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The Kingfish posted:Yikes brae. How about you go shitblast on some other thread?
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Dec 29, 2016 17:08
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Nevvy Z posted:What if the husband is the cleaner one and the woman is the slob? Then they don't have this problem. I don't currently have cancer, should we stop trying to cure it?
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Dec 29, 2016 17:09
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Nevvy Z posted:What if the husband is the cleaner one and the wife is the slob?
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Dec 29, 2016 17:09
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TB, I am not racist. I am not sexist. I don't like those things. They're bad. How bad? Really bad! Super hurtful. No one deserves to suffer that stuff. Everyone deserves fairness. I was not trying to imply, that only housewives deal with this. I was trying to give an example, to demonstrate my point. I have no doubt, that there are women doing more than is fair, and that this is a widespread problem, and I haven't questioned that. What I did question, is the best way to solve it, and the source of the problem. Now, we can have a discussion about that, and maybe that would be helpful. But, I'm trying to talk in good faith, and I need you to do the same thing. I don't have anything against you, I just don't like being attacked. Okay?
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Dec 29, 2016 17:09
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FactsAreUseless posted:Then great? Nobody is saying that this is some universal constant, it's just a trend that ties into gender norms and men's behavior, which is the kind of thing a thread about feminism and men exists to discuss. What point are you making with this post? "Sometimes things are different?" Yeah, no poo poo. Honestly I was just trying to distract from this constant "i can't read her mind"/"you are a monster" yelling past each other.
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Dec 29, 2016 17:10
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the trump tutelage posted:We have a concrete goal: teach men to value housework appropriately and to do their fair share. Never mind subjective standards of cleanliness, the issue is ultimately about the division of labor. Okay - what is an actually practicable way to achieve this? I think Rudatron got it early on. People should start by assuming the problem like a communication issue (which is fixable) rather than an apathy or malice issue (which is unfixable) From there you, the exercise is just about how you set expectations, and on how you'd show someone that they're consistently failing to meet their agreed standard. If someone has agreed to do things, fails, is aware that they're failing, and doesn't change, then you've no longer got a communication problem, but a motivation on. At that point, several. The remaining discussion seems to be about specific conversational tactics. That and how we should apportion moral fault. The former is kind of specific to the situation and people. The latter seems irrelevant (I'm unhappy, but morally blameless. Yay?)
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Dec 29, 2016 17:10
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rscott posted:OK honestly how much extra poo poo is there to do, we have to be talking about a couple hours a week tops unless you have kids Lol I do a couple hours of house work a day just to tread water I mean that covers like dinner and dinner cleanup.
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Dec 29, 2016 17:11
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