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Afab is assigned female at birth. Basically saying that you were declared a girl by a doctor
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Dec 29, 2016 22:14
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Gloryhold It! posted:Afab is assigned female at birth. Basically saying that you were declared a girl by a doctor
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Dec 29, 2016 22:15
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FactsAreUseless posted:This is interesting, if you want to expand on it. Did you feel at the time like you had those privileges, or were giving them up? Also, what is AFAB? AFAB is assigned female at birth. E:Beaten haha 2e: you see it come up fairly commonly in a medical context stone cold fucked around with this message at 22:22 on Dec 29, 2016 |
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Dec 29, 2016 22:16
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FactsAreUseless posted:Ah, okay. I've only heard that phrasing used in discussing intersex people, do people just use it to refer to cis women? The key to the phrases is that it makes no statement about anyone's current sex or gender or identity or anything. IIRC it did start in intersex discourse (correct me if I'm talking out of my rear end please), and has been adopted/appropriated for trans discussions as well. So, an intersex woman, an intersex man (who may or may not identify as trans), a cis woman, a trans man, and a non-binary person could all be AFAB. Octatonic fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Dec 29, 2016 |
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Dec 29, 2016 22:21
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FactsAreUseless posted:If you continue that discussion here I will scream. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 29, 2016 22:22
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FactsAreUseless posted:This is interesting, if you want to expand on it. Did you feel at the time like you had those privileges, or were giving them up? Also, what is AFAB? I spoke about this a little bit earlier, but there are lots of assumptions and poo poo that I had from growing up "male" that I didn't appreciate until now. I was always listened to in school, I was encouraged to go into science and math, never feeling threatened for my gender, etc The flipside being that I had to deal with the poo poo boys get like being forced away from anything "nurturing", being told to suppress my emotions, and generally not being able to be expressive because that's weak or "fag poo poo"
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Dec 29, 2016 22:23
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FactsAreUseless posted:Ah, okay. I've only heard that phrasing used in discussing intersex people, do people just use it to refer to cis women? Nah, it applies to trans men and many non-binary people too. It's a way of describing what society viewed you as before you were able to decide for yourself without invalidating anyone's identies As a trans woman, I was assigned male at birth (AMAB) like cis men usually are.
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Dec 29, 2016 22:29
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I wasn't aware of how I was benefitting by being read as male in the past, and I don't necessarily feel like I've given something tangible up, it's just different now. I wound up in an extremely high flight physics program partially by chance because I ended up in the honors advisor's intro class, but I sat up front and raised my hand and had the nerve to ask if I could be in the honors class next semester even though the professor didn't exactly think it was a good idea at first. Would that sequence of events have been the same for a woman? I dunno, I kinda doubt it. Plus beyond that, half of getting into the program was winning over the all boy class so they'd vouch for me, so even if I had ended up in the class on a trial run I might not have toughed it out and gotten on everyone's good side. Would I have even ended up in the sciences had things been different? I don't really know the answer to the either. I was an equally proficient writer in high school (and I ended up doing a minor in feminist studies because I like the theory side a lot) but I got infinite encouragement to pursue something mathy in college. I was the generically "smart kid" who everyone said would end up being a mad scientist.
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Dec 29, 2016 22:36
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Octatonic posted:Thanks for making the thread, and for posting in it Thank you for the effort posts! Hopefully I'll have time to say something more substantial later; I just wanted to say it's appreciated and I'm sure lots of other people found them helpful like I did.
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Dec 29, 2016 22:39
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stone cold posted:Now that I think about it, it's kind of crazy that Martha Stewart saw more jail time than the architects of the CDO economic collapse of 08. not empty quoting this so goddamn hard
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Dec 29, 2016 22:41
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I need to work on my gender-neutral descriptors when addressing people. I walked away from a conversation with 2 female FedEx employees at the branch where I'm a regular with "have a good weekend, guys!" and immediately felt like a giant asshat. Mostly it stems from high school; most of my friends were girls and the word "dude" was thrown around so much that it just became ingrained in my head as a gender-neutral term of affection. Sadly I can't remake the world around my own preferences, so I need to accept that calling a woman "dude" or "bro" isn't really a good idea.
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Dec 29, 2016 22:46
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Becoming Ugly This was a great read. I pulled a few choice quotes, and as a man this one is pretty enlightening for me on the world I just don't see quote:In 2001, when I was about 14 years old, my male friends invented a game that went like this: one of them—and it was always the same one—would sneak behind me, slap me—and it was always me—on the rear end and run away as I sputtered, angry and humiliated... And so I turned and punched Tom directly in the groin... he collapsed to the ground, gripping himself, hissing, “You are a loving bitch. You are a loving bitch,” over and over again.
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Dec 29, 2016 22:47
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Kelp Me! posted:I need to work on my gender-neutral descriptors when addressing people. I walked away from a conversation with 2 female FedEx employees at the branch where I'm a regular with "have a good weekend, guys!" and immediately felt like a giant asshat. Y'all is my favorite gender neutral address.
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Dec 29, 2016 22:58
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"Youse" is also pretty good but it's usually followed by guys, but it works on its own.
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Dec 29, 2016 23:01
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Philip Rivers posted:Y'all is my favorite gender neutral address. I'm a big fan of "folks" but that worked better when I was in the service industry, it doesn't seem like a word I would use in everyday conversation. I should just use "friends" but always say it with a creepy grin. "Have a good weekend, friends!  "
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Dec 29, 2016 23:03
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I say friends and folks as well, but I'll refer to my friends as dude because hey it's California what can I say 
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Dec 29, 2016 23:05
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Chummers.
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Dec 29, 2016 23:08
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Kelp Me! posted:I need to work on my gender-neutral descriptors when addressing people. I walked away from a conversation with 2 female FedEx employees at the branch where I'm a regular with "have a good weekend, guys!" and immediately felt like a giant asshat. I use "you guys" because I've heard no objections even in specifically women's and transgender spaces, and not everything has to be perfectly unproblematic.
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Dec 29, 2016 23:17
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Kelp Me! posted:I need to work on my gender-neutral descriptors when addressing people. I walked away from a conversation with 2 female FedEx employees at the branch where I'm a regular with "have a good weekend, guys!" and immediately felt like a giant asshat. It's telling that I'm drawing a blank over any sort of alternative. I can't imagine saying the same thing but appending "ladies" at the end without it sounding slightly condescending or creepy. Though I guess a good alternative is to just not use them at all. If the party you're addressing knows they're being addressed I don't see any room for confusion.
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Dec 29, 2016 23:41
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Kelp Me! posted:I'm a big fan of "folks" but that worked better when I was in the service industry, it doesn't seem like a word I would use in everyday conversation. I feel like "guys" has become gender neutral in a lot of people's minds, but "folks" was my go-to in my park ranger days. One of my co-workers also adopted it after an older fellow admonished her that "My wife is not a 'guy'."
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Dec 29, 2016 23:47
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Nevvy Z posted:Becoming Ugly Another choice quote from this article “I get that you’re mad and don’t like it when Tom grabs you like that,†he said and I exhaled a sigh of gratitude. “But what you did...†I sucked my breath in again, “...You just don’t do that to a guy. Ever." Casual violation of a woman's personal space is all laughs, but returning the favor is a something you just don't do. Won't you think of his body and how that makes him feel? e: phoneposting which might be loving up my quotation marks coronatae fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Dec 29, 2016 |
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Dec 29, 2016 23:48
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I live in California and use, depending on how formal I'm being/my audience, any one of: "dude", "peeps", "y'all", "guys"Uncle Jam posted:I have a massive problem keeping any women in my department for any length of time. Right now we have about 20 people and its all male. But really, I want to talk about this because if you're talking tech industry (and a casual browse of your post history implies that you might be), I have a lot of experience in it and if you really want to be able to retain women in your department, I can give you a pretty decent step-by-step guide for beginners (but it's a lot of work so you might just feel the urge to lie down and give up -- don't give up!!!). Also Kelp Me! is entirely right that you probably have a thoroughly toxic department already and it's driving away not only women, but also anyone who doesn't like the way your lovely team talks about women. The job market for tech is still going pretty decently, which means feminist men will also leave if they're thoroughly sick of their coworkers' poo poo. This isn't hyperbole. I have friends who've literally done exactly that because the work was fine but listening to their goddamn lovely coworkers during work hours was sapping the joy from their lives. 1. If you don't have an HR department or person, hire an HR person. Then, give your HR person/department the authority to act. If your HR director is the CEO's brother's best friend, then he (also try to hire women into your higher positions) isn't going to tell the CEO to shut his loving face and stop calling people "sweetie". If your HR director isn't part of the C-suite, they're not gonna feel comfortable telling the CTO that if he doesn't stop talking about boobs, he's gonna get thrown out on his rear end. 2. Hire more women in leadership roles. If all the managers and C-suite are men, then the next step is gonna be harder. But what you need to do is deliberately seed your company with potential allies who have the authority to shut down bad behavior. This isn't easy because sexist companies, for obvious reasons, hate giving women power. Too bad. You need buy-in at the very top. A strong HR department who is also committed to diversity will help with this. 3. Correct everyone in your department who says lovely sexist stuff. You. You, personally, have to do this. YOU have to be the wet blanket. What if no women are around to hear it? What if you though that rape joke was funny? What if you're not sure the female new-hire who's been on the job for 3 months is going to be offended? Doesn't matter. The new hire probably won't want to rock the boat, so you have to do it. You have the social capital to start making demands. If new-hire Jane keeps telling people to stop talking about her legs, she's gonna get passed up when promotion season rolls around, and she knows this. Practice saying the following: "That's not funny. I don't want to hear that poo poo in the office again." and then be prepared to follow up with actual consequences, up to and including letting people go. You have the authority to tell your department what is and isn't appropriate in the workplace. If your environment is already toxic, it's better to cut everything bad (no sexist jokes, no fatshaming, no objectification of women, etc) than to gamble on whether or not a specific joke can be made without hurting the culture of the team. It's too late for that!!! Your team's culture is already toxic!! Don't waste your energy splitting hairs, purge all of it. You're better off with a soulless, professional environment than a toxic unprofessional one. And don't treat it like a joke, like, "oh, now we have to be politically correct for the women, haha". Treat it seriously -- "you fuckers are loving up our ability to get talent, and I'm done putting up with it". If your team knows you don't really care about changing your lovely toxic culture, they're not even gonna try because they'll know there's no consequences for ignoring you. This step, specifically, will put a lot of work on you because you have to be the good ally. You have to read the articles and do the research and do the advocacy. You have to convince people that a change is necessary and not optional. You have to convince the female new hires that you've got their back, which means you can't dismiss their concerns or expect them to always stick up for themselves (because it has real, tangible career consequences if they do). And then you have to actually have their back and do something about it if the CEO tells them to get him a coffee or the CTO makes a gross comment about their skirt or their manager asks them on a date. 4. Listen to exit interviews (conduct exit interviews if you haven't already). Make it super loving clear] that the contents of an exit interview are not going to impact a later referral from you, and that you are willing and happy to listen and consider all complaints, even complaints of "uh, well one time my coworker came to my desk at work and asked me out and I didn't like it" or "people keep going out for drinks after work but I can never go because I have a kid" or whatever. Take notes and listen to all complaints. They may be indicative of the underlying problem you already know you have. More information is always better. When taking these notes, I shouldn't have to say this, but don't downplay anything reported to you. Don't open your dumb mouth and say "yeah, Josh always goes on power trips to people so it's not sexist". Just don't. It doesn't matter -- what matters is "Josh behaves poorly and it contributes to driving away employees I want to keep". Also, if Josh is behaving poorly and driving away employees, you should probably talk to him about it, even if he's brilliant when you let him do whatever he wants, because companies are a team effort and he's not a team player. 5. Accept that some employees aren't going to want to change. You will have to force them to change or let them go. Period. You can't keep someone with power/seniority/authority who opposes this culture change because he'll be introducing more toxicity and fighting against you every step of the way, which will make it harder for you to change. You can't keep John if he can't keep his fat mouth shut about how attractive he finds the women in Sales, or whatever. 6. You can also do the showy, flashy things -- deliberately hiring more women, starting a diversity committee (and empowering them to actually do things -- so they need things like a small budget, the authority to throw events/make presentations, the authority to enforce rules (or someone else's authority backing them up), etc), hiring (NOT for free -- don't act like you think their presentation/work isn't worth money, "I want a woman to come teach my lovely company but I don't think it deserves to be paid for" is the literal opposite direction you want to go) someone to talk/give a presentation about diversity to your company. These are all small things that are nice, but on their own, they are not enough. On their own, it's just lip service and gonna get ignored, so never think you can just "oh I'll hire someone to talk to the team and that'll magically fix it" your way out of your lovely situation. ... So yeah, it's not gonna be easy. You might be able to get advice from the women in different departments, if you go to them and are open about the problem ("my department appears to be garbage and I'm super loving sick of it, do you have any advice?"), but you have to be the one to do the work. You're the one with the bad department and it's not their job to clean up after you, so if they do go out of their way to give you advice and ideas, it's important to a) be grateful and appreciative that they're willing to help at all, and b) actually put some of your own effort into the situation. Realistically, my experience has been that the companies with this problem will complain that it's too much effort because the toxic employees are too valuable to lose, they don't actually want to hire women into high-ranking positions (C-suite), they don't actually want to hire a strong HR team (but we can't fire the CEO's friend!), they don't want to spend money, they were only interested in an easy fix, or some combination of the above.
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Dec 30, 2016 00:40
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Philip Rivers posted:I say friends and folks as well, but I'll refer to my friends as dude because hey it's California what can I say Can confirm, my wife, my pants, anything I'm holding, things that were in my hands but have fallen to the floor, is dude.
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Dec 30, 2016 00:41
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Kelp Me! posted:I need to work on my gender-neutral descriptors when addressing people. I walked away from a conversation with 2 female FedEx employees at the branch where I'm a regular with "have a good weekend, guys!" and immediately felt like a giant asshat. Might be different in the US but hasn't "dude" been gender-neutral since before Cobain died?
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Dec 30, 2016 00:42
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Crane Fist posted:Might be different in the US but hasn't "dude" been gender-neutral since before Cobain died? It has (to an extent), same with "guys". Problem is they used to be male terms that became gender-neutral, while there has never been a female term that has done so. Neo_Crimson fucked around with this message at 01:03 on Dec 30, 2016 |
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Dec 30, 2016 00:54
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Philip Rivers posted:I say friends and folks as well, but I'll refer to my friends as dude because hey it's California what can I say Haha gently caress yeah, I'm glad you pointed that out because I was like "what the gently caress is going on, dude is a genderless noun" but I guess it's just California-speak.
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Dec 30, 2016 00:56
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Crane Fist posted:Might be different in the US but hasn't "dude" been gender-neutral since before Cobain died? No. Neither is guys. It is annoying when people try to use them as if they are.
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Dec 30, 2016 00:57
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Neo_Crimson posted:It has (to an extent), same with "guys". Problem is they used to be male terms that became gender-neutral, while there has never been a female term that has done so. Well yeah, because male is default so male things are FOR everyone, while female things are only for the ladies. See: pink, and dolls, and "chick flicks" etc. I'm sure you're quite aware, I'm just annoyed with myself because my first thought about your post was "well, what female term COULD be gender neutral? They're all so...feminine..." gently caress.
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Dec 30, 2016 01:10
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Did y'all know buddy and sissy are opposites? That one makes me laugh.
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Dec 30, 2016 01:13
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Colin Mockery posted:How to fix your lovely office culture. This is a loving awesome post. Everyone go reread it. This is how you do the work. It's not easy, and always personally rewarding, but it's the right loving thing to do. I want to especially emphasize point number three. As a member of an ingroup, you have a lot more influence and social capital to spend on these things than a member of an outgtoup. Octatonic fucked around with this message at 01:48 on Dec 30, 2016 |
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Dec 30, 2016 01:44
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Neo_Crimson posted:It has (to an extent), same with "guys". Problem is they used to be male terms that became gender-neutral, while there has never been a female term that has done so. There should be a series where people call a mixed group "gals" and see what happens.
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Dec 30, 2016 01:48
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Neo_Crimson posted:It has (to an extent), same with "guys". Problem is they used to be male terms that became gender-neutral, while there has never been a female term that has done so. Because anything that refers to women is offensive, automatically. Note that bro is fine, "sissy" is an insult. Sir is fine, "madam" runs a whorehouse. Guys are fine, "gals" is a bit condescending. Then on the other hand 'guy', a nasty insult, became acceptable by being used to refer to men for a while. The same thing has sort of happened in some places with 'dog' and even 'oval office'.
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Dec 30, 2016 01:48
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Colin Mockery posted:I live in California and use, depending on how formal I'm being/my audience, any one of: "dude", "peeps", "y'all", "guys" This is an extremely good post.
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Dec 30, 2016 02:31
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Reference to my favorite comic, Dog Logic Ok, I feel like i'm missing something really hilarious here, can someone spell this out for me and how it relates to the discussion?
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Dec 30, 2016 02:47
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-Blackadder- posted:Ok, I feel like i'm missing something really hilarious here, can someone spell this out for me and how it relates to the discussion? Pls throw?? NO TAKE!! ONLY THROW
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Dec 30, 2016 02:49
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-Blackadder- posted:Ok, I feel like i'm missing something really hilarious here, can someone spell this out for me and how it relates to the discussion? The dog purports to desire a thing, then acts in a deleterious manner towards achieving that goal. This is a metaphor for dumb male behaviour. Please leave.
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Dec 30, 2016 02:51
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-Blackadder- posted:Ok, I feel like i'm missing something really hilarious here, can someone spell this out for me and how it relates to the discussion? Well the main thing is it's adorable. And I'm reading through the boy feminism thread that got closed so I don't know fully what that looked like at the end but: Dog is like "hey throw the frisbee I LOVE CATCH" human tries to take the frisbee so he can, you know, throw it and dog is like "NO IT'S MINE I WILL NOT ALLOW THIS INSULT" but then is also "loving throw the frisbee human" so human is left going "ok I guess you can't be happy dog." The unillustrated fourth panel probably has the dog going off to make a post on the internet about how unfair humans are with their loving insisting on taking frisbees away from poor defenseless dogs that didn't do anything wrong.
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Dec 30, 2016 02:52
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Goons famously have no understanding of fairly simple comics. It was bad enough with people not understanding the Perry Bible Fellowship stuff, now it's a literal three panel six word comic about a dog 
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Dec 30, 2016 02:56
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Rappaport posted:The dog purports to desire a thing, then acts in a deleterious manner towards achieving that goal. This is a metaphor for dumb male behaviour. Please leave. seems a more apt metaphor for dumb person behavior imo
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Dec 30, 2016 03:06
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Hawkgirl posted:Well the main thing is it's adorable. And I'm reading through the boy feminism thread that got closed so I don't know fully what that looked like at the end but: Yeah, I thought this too, which is why I asked about it. I understood the comic itself, I actually have a dog who loves to do this and it is adorable. I was just looking for clarification on how it connects to this and the other thread. Anyway, thanks for explaining it without including any insults in your reply. -Blackadder- fucked around with this message at 03:18 on Dec 30, 2016 |
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Dec 30, 2016 03:16
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