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Foreman Domai posted:I'd be very interested in hearing a bit more about this. Was it any way similar to the Anti-Fascist Myth in the GDR or am I totally off base? Watch Come and See
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Dec 30, 2016 19:09
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Canadian public schools are iffy too sometimes. I had two history teachers and both of them liked history but either dumbed down the content (the Canadian history one) whenever it involved the rest of the world context, or in the case of world history, kinda went balls deep on "The Germans had PANTHERS AND TIGERS!" I'm actually rather shocked that way back when I knew 80% of the Germans losses were in the eastern front, this was glossed over in class. Of course I was a bit of a smart rear end know it all though, our Quebec and Canadian history teacher said something like "The maritime powers of the 1500's to 1600's were England, the Netherlands, Spain, France, and Italy" and *I* of course being all into Italian history at the time and Garibaldi was like "Um no, actually Italy didn't exist yet as a unified nation until1870 and was divided into a bunch of city-stat-"Shush they don't know that.""
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Dec 30, 2016 19:15
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Raenir Salazar posted:"The maritime powers of the 1500's to 1600's were England, the Netherlands, Spain, France, and Italy" and *I* of course being all into Italian history at the time and Garibaldi was like "Um no, actually Italy didn't exist yet as a unified nation until1870 and was divided into a bunch of city-stat-"Shush they don't know that."" tfw no ottomans
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Dec 30, 2016 19:30
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HEY GAL posted:tfw no ottomans I've only heard of them as a result of them taking Constantinople and why America was discovered in class; reading this random soft cover history book did I learn they almost took Vienna and were like, the hordes of Mordor as far as Europe was concerned. The rest of what I ever learned was a result of reading Paul Kennedy's Rise and Fall of the Great Powers, then Europa Universalis and then Extra History.
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Dec 30, 2016 19:37
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Korea deserves a special mention for The Admiral, from the Roaring Currents
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Dec 30, 2016 19:37
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Raenir Salazar posted:I've only heard of them as a result of them taking Constantinople and why America was discovered in class; reading this random soft cover history book did I learn they almost took Vienna and were like, the hordes of Mordor as far as Europe was concerned. Decline and Fall of the Ottoman Empire is a good book I read this year
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Dec 30, 2016 19:38
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Raenir Salazar posted:I've only heard of them as a result of them taking Constantinople and why America was discovered in class; reading this random soft cover history book did I learn they almost took Vienna and were like, the hordes of Mordor as far as Europe was concerned. seems legit 
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Dec 30, 2016 19:39
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SlothfulCobra posted:What's the Japanese take on the atrocities of the war? They don't have the same sort of pop culture reinforcement of the horrors of their crimes that the nazis do. There are members of government that consistently engage in denialism and revisionism. But the LDP (Shinzo Abe's party) is so loving enormous that it's wrong to characterise the entire party the same way. It's getting pretty fuckin' close nowadays though. For most of the country, WWII doesn't come up much besides during high school. Since Japanese education leans heavily into rote memorization, the average Japanese person probably knows that Nanjing was a Japanese atrocity, but doesn't have a very detailed knowledge of why. But this potentially applies to everything else they learn in school, and isn't a quality unique to Japanese either. There is a textbook with a 0.5% market share that tries to downplay Nanjing, which gets brought up on the internet a lot. Well, the other 99% teach about Nanjing as a Japanese atrocities, to varying degrees of historical detail.
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Dec 30, 2016 19:40
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Plutonis posted:Decline and Fall of the Ottoman Empire is a good book I read this year
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Dec 30, 2016 19:45
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Suleiman does so well and yet fucks it up by killing his only son that was worth a drat at taking over.
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Dec 30, 2016 19:48
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HEY GAL posted:read gunpowder and galleys, if you can get the cheaper first edition and not the expensive second edition, and guns for the sultan There was a good rear end biography of Hayreddin Barbarossa I have too need to look at the name and author later
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Dec 30, 2016 19:54
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MikeCrotch posted:C'mon man, you can't talk about the Nimrod AWACs and not post a picture Looks like a 747 mating with a very small zeppelin.
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Dec 30, 2016 20:02
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It looks like if a plane tried cupping
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Dec 30, 2016 20:17
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OwlFancier posted:Looks like a 747 mating with a very small zeppelin. The other great thing about these aircraft is that in the 2010 budget austerity moves, you got rid of all of them Just after a bunch of money had been spent upgrading them And so now Great Britain has no Anti-Submarine aircraft And ever since then you've been borrowing ASW aircraft from France and Canada Every time one of your ballistic missile submarines leaves port, you have to call up the French to run as anti-submarine patrol
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Dec 30, 2016 20:34
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That's going to be fun when we leave the EU then.
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Dec 30, 2016 20:37
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School history is unlike mathematics or such subjects. It has always been and always will be a bit of lore to provide some common cultural, political and social ground to stand on and one of the many purposes is to form a national identity of which people can be proud. At its best it can dispel urban myths and provide firm background for those who desire to go deeper. What it can't do is give all parts of human history an equal share, nor should it. Eg. you could be unaware of 99% of the contents of this thread and still know enough of history to not be considered an ignoramus.
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Dec 30, 2016 20:40
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tbh i don't even remember what i was taught about any camps, except that some camps were mentioned
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Dec 30, 2016 20:49
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Went to school in the early 2000s in a Chicago suburb and I remember hearing about all of them, I even remember a piece of paper covering what all the colors/icons meant on their uniforms. Really probably comes down to teacher/district/state, as mentioned.
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Dec 30, 2016 21:01
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I think it's unfair to blame school history programs for not putting too much effort into world history, when thd number one priority is providing the history of your own country and their most important environs. For example, the most important part of Japanese history for Lithuanians is Ruso-Japanese war since Russian Empire losing led to weakening positions of the Russian government and eventually us running the gently caress away from them.
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Dec 30, 2016 21:25
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Grand Prize Winner posted:Back on procurement: how do other countries handle it, compared to the US? From an outside perspective, it seems like the UK throws money at us and prays we deliver while the eu countries rely on their own mechanisms, Russia and China do their own thing (??? What is it???) and everyone else relies on gear from the four sources I listed while Japan and Israel build stuff internally when they can. New Zealand: we're very little and don't have the capability to manufacture anything we need domestically (although some of our defence contractors make and sell fairly important widgets). This means that we not only buy everything from overseas, but we can basically only buy it when somebody else is already buying enough to make a production run worthwhile. This means a lot of zero-sum decisions - we bought two ANZAC frigates in the nineties and could not now have a third although that was an option at the time - and a lot of buying stuff at the same time as somebody else. This is actually a bit of a problem at the moment because we need to replace our aging C-130s and e.g. we can't have a C-17 because somebody else bought one of the spares first.
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Dec 30, 2016 21:34
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Raenir Salazar posted:I've only heard of them as a result of them taking Constantinople and why America was discovered in class; reading this random soft cover history book did I learn they almost took Vienna and were like, the hordes of Mordor as far as Europe was concerned. The Ottomans were actually Portugal's most dangerous rival for control of trade in the Indian Ocean for parts of this period, and even went as far as importing Venetians to attack their Indian holdings. Even when they weren't fighting directly, the Ottomans funded and armed a lot of the indigenous opponents of Western colonial powers in places like Malaysia and Indonesia
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Dec 30, 2016 21:57
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Squalid posted:The Ottomans were actually Portugal's most dangerous rival for control of trade in the Indian Ocean for parts of this period, and even went as far as importing Venetians to attack their Indian holdings. Even when they weren't fighting directly, the Ottomans funded and armed a lot of the indigenous opponents of Western colonial powers in places like Malaysia and Indonesia that sounds really interesting, could you post more about it
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Dec 30, 2016 22:00
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OwlFancier posted:That's going to be fun when we leave the EU then. It's fine, we'll put lash Farage and Gove to the edge of something in the channel (Sealand?) and their unpleasantness will drive anything living off. Then we'll leave them in there. Forever.
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Dec 30, 2016 22:03
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Nude Bog Lurker posted:This is actually a bit of a problem at the moment because we need to replace our aging C-130s and e.g. we can't have a C-17 because somebody else bought one of the spares first. Yeah, the production line ended - this year? Now you gotta buy one of those new E390s, that Japanese design, or loose all hope and buy the Airbus A400
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Dec 30, 2016 22:16
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OwlFancier posted:Looks like a 747 mating with a very small zeppelin. this would have been a better idea probably the wrong thread but why did daddy warbucks hold out on e-3s? or was this a stiff upper lip type of procurement
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Dec 30, 2016 22:21
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Nude Bog Lurker posted:New Zealand: we're very little and don't have the capability to manufacture anything we need domestically (although some of our defence contractors make and sell fairly important widgets). This means that we not only buy everything from overseas, but we can basically only buy it when somebody else is already buying enough to make a production run worthwhile. This means a lot of zero-sum decisions - we bought two ANZAC frigates in the nineties and could not now have a third although that was an option at the time - and a lot of buying stuff at the same time as somebody else. This is actually a bit of a problem at the moment because we need to replace our aging C-130s and e.g. we can't have a C-17 because somebody else bought one of the spares first. Jeezy petes the Commonwealth seems hosed. Hogge Wild posted:tbh i don't even remember what i was taught about any camps, except that some camps were mentioned I was educated in a lower-middle-class part of LA (avg income somewhere around $70k) and we focused a lot more on Manzanar and Japanese internment than on the Holocaust. Not shocking really; it was a lot closer to home and the way Californians treated our erstwhile neighbors was atrocious (lotta Japanese farms got bought out for pennies, same with their houses).
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Dec 30, 2016 22:34
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HEY GAL posted:tfw no ottomans Also no Portugal?
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Dec 30, 2016 22:34
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Nebakenezzer posted:The other great thing about these aircraft is that in the 2010 budget austerity moves, you got rid of all of them Don't forget the Harriers! And Britain's only aircraft carriers, while we're at it. bitcoin bastard posted:this would have been a better idea Well, the RAF desperately needed a replacement for their Avro Shackletons, a derivative of the WWII Lancaster bomber powered by four Spitfire engines. These aircraft had entered service in 1949, and were somewhat hacked into the AEW&C role by the addition of WWII radar sets from retired Fairey Gannets operated by the Royal Navy. These things lumbered on and on while the Brits wasted over a billion pounds in 1980s money on the 747 mating with a Zeppelin pictured earlier. Due to the problems with the computers being too slow to be able to handle the two radars simultaneously, as well as a heat dissipation system that only worked if the plane had at least half a fuel load, or else the radars and computers would have to be powered off, as well as the "we're spending a billion bloody pounds on something that is never going to work" issue, the Nimrod AEW3 program was cancelled. The Shackleton was finally retired in 1991, with the American Boeing E-3 Sentry coming on stream to replace it. Quinntan fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Dec 30, 2016 |
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Dec 30, 2016 23:06
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Hogge Wild posted:that sounds really interesting, could you post more about it There was already a long history of trade across the Indian ocean in the 15th century, and as part of their general expansion in the 15th and 16th centuries the Ottomans muscled in on the routes previously controlled by Arabs and Persians. When the Portuguese appear they threatened what had been the virtual monopoly the Ottomans held on the spice trade to Europe, and also the Venetians role as an intermediary in the trade. The result was a major trade war with each side fighting over access to Indian port cities with lots of intrigue between the two and local princely states. Many of the coastal forts built by the Portuguese in this period were primarily there to defend against Ottoman attacks, like the one in Goa and Muscat Oman. These were not small skirmishes either, naval battles could involve hundreds of ships and thousands of men, and could occur anywhere from Somalia to Singapore. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Diu The Ottomans were always hampered by conflicting priorities, often invasion fleets would be diverted to stamp out fires in other parts of the empire. They never seemed able to match the quality of western European navies, a lot of the battles involved Ottoman galleys getting wrecked by Portuguese carracks. As they were gradually muscled out by European traders they turned sought to work more closely with local maritime powers like the Acehnese also threatened by the arrival of European powers. The Ottoman Sultan's position as Caliph and premier Muslim power served as an additional bridge between these states, and the relationship proved enduring and profitable, lasting right up to the 19th century.
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Dec 30, 2016 23:09
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Squalid posted:They never seemed able to match the quality of western European navies
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Dec 30, 2016 23:17
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SeanBeansShako posted:It's fine, we'll put lash Farage and Gove to the edge of something in the channel (Sealand?) and their unpleasantness will drive anything living off. Put Gove in the channel and Farage somewhere in the middle of the north sea and you'd have an effective sonar fence. Just listen for the faint interminable drone of whingeing about foreigners coming in with the tide and you know there's russians out there. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Dec 30, 2016 |
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Dec 30, 2016 23:19
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Grand Prize Winner posted:Jeezy petes the Commonwealth seems hosed. Even minnows can still make horrible decisions! We bought 105 LAV-IIIs for, um, some reason, and have failed since the early 90s to buy a logistic ship that actually works - HMNZS Charles Upham did a stint shipping oranges around the Med because it was so useless and the replacement is also bad, and we bought NH-90s because they were "cheap" even though we don't actually know what they are for or how to use them.
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Dec 30, 2016 23:27
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OwlFancier posted:That's going to be fun when we leave the EU then. Wouldn't NATO still supply weapons cause that wouldn't be such a big deal. And it's not like the UK is gonna enter a war with a sub-heavy country like the perfideous Platineans and Krauts any time soon...?
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Dec 30, 2016 23:30
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Nude Bog Lurker posted:Even minnows can still make horrible decisions! We bought 105 LAV-IIIs for, um, some reason, and have failed since the early 90s to buy a logistic ship that actually works - HMNZS Charles Upham did a stint shipping oranges around the Med because it was so useless and the replacement is also bad, and we bought NH-90s because they were "cheap" even though we don't actually know what they are for or how to use them. Well that tears it. Anyone wanna invade New Zealand soon? I can come up with a handle of tequila and a crowbar. Probably need like two more guys and a sock full of quarters to really guarantee success.
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Dec 30, 2016 23:33
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Plutonis posted:And it's not like the UK is gonna enter a war with a sub-heavy country like the perfideous Platineans and Krauts any time soon...? I direct your attention to Russia.
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Dec 31, 2016 00:00
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feedmegin posted:I direct your attention to Russia. I think maybe the UK's plan was that under normal circumstances any conceivable situation where the UK is in a shooting war with Russia, then the US will be on the UK's side. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that's a solid plan anymore...
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Dec 31, 2016 00:20
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Grand Prize Winner posted:Well that tears it. Anyone wanna invade New Zealand soon? I can come up with a handle of tequila and a crowbar. Probably need like two more guys and a sock full of quarters to really guarantee success. NZ is having the same problem that commonwealth [and other nations] have, in that they are trying to figure out what capabilities they need. This is complected as in any real war with equal or greater powers it would have Allies, so a nation can assume it doesn't need X, because our allies have X. So the military is trying to balance two different requirements: one is "what as a nation do we need in order to do the stuff we want to do on our own" and "what do we need to be a useful ally?" These issues are complected by politics, naturally (New Zealand in the 1990s at least was all about budget austerity) which leads to dumb decisions to "save money." In addition, (and this might be an NZ advantage, frankly) you also have to think about how much you want to spend on industrial Capacity dedicated to war - what you are going to produce natively, and what you are going to buy elsewhere. In Canada, we've started a new naval shipbuilding program to regenerate our lost Navy shipbuilding capacity. We'd have to use designs from elsewhere, but history at least says that having some self reliance in the Navy for Canada is a smart way to spend money. In contrast, despite a large aerospace industry, our percentage of military projects is very small, because, well, everybody else spends so much drat money on military aerospace, why wouldn't we buy from them? I'm not sure if the 30 years war crowd can sympathize at all. While I know Industrial capacity is still a thing in the 1600s, I feel like it was a lot less technically specific back in the day.
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Dec 31, 2016 01:10
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feedmegin posted:I direct your attention to Russia. nah
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Dec 31, 2016 01:19
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Plutonis posted:Wouldn't NATO still supply weapons cause that wouldn't be such a big deal. And it's not like the UK is gonna enter a war with a sub-heavy country like the perfideous Platineans and Krauts any time soon...? Yes the EU isn't really a military alliance as the military powers are also in NATO, but it's going to be funny to think of Theresa May ringing up France and asking if they can please help out and also gently caress orf we're full.
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Dec 31, 2016 01:43
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Mazz posted:Went to school in the early 2000s in a Chicago suburb and I remember hearing about all of them, I even remember a piece of paper covering what all the colors/icons meant on their uniforms. Also went to school in Chicagoland but a bit later and like your experience it was covered pretty extensively. Illinois is one of the few (only? I think that may have been the case when I was in high school) states to mandate genocide and holocaust education. My high school even added a semester class about it my senior year but that may have been because the teacher, who was Jewish in a Catholic school, had some sway in the history department since he taught AP Euro and world and the rest of the history teachers were mostly coaches. And no matter the class he would bring in a Jewish WWII vet to speak--I saw him four times myself--about his experiences at Omaha, the Ardennes, but mostly Buchenwald. Found out the speaker died recently but the man had a full and interesting life even outside of the war; he was the first Jewish mayor of a pretty WASPy suburb and encountered a discouraging amount of anti-semitism during his campaigning. Interestingly, the historiography of the high school holocaust class in a Catholic school touched on Catholic (polish) priest persecution and the Vatican sheltering Jews a lot more than normal. I always assumed it's how he sold it to the administration. Sorry this rambled but he was a great history teacher and we can hopefully all appreciate that in this thread, right?  e: OwlFancier posted:Yes the EU isn't really a military alliance as the military powers are also in NATO, but it's going to be funny to think of Theresa May ringing up France and asking if they can please help out and also gently caress orf we're full. Funny right up until she's ringing Le Pen. Pontius Pilate fucked around with this message at 01:46 on Dec 31, 2016 |
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Dec 31, 2016 01:43
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