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Cythereal posted:I think maybe the UK's plan was that under normal circumstances any conceivable situation where the UK is in a shooting war with Russia, then the US will be on the UK's side. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that's a solid plan anymore... I know a lady who was involved in the MOD's planning for how to fight a conventional war with Russia. Apparently the conclusion was to avoid fighting a conventional war with Russia.
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Dec 31, 2016 01:53
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feedmegin posted:I direct your attention to Russia. I've played Red Alert, they're a sub-heavy navy for sure
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Dec 31, 2016 02:00
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Re: American public education - like others said, because of America's weird dedication to giving states too much autonomy, it really comes down to how much money the state allocates to your district, what the minimum state standards are, and finally what the local school board sets the curriculum at. My personal experience is with an upstate NY district that was mainly blue collar/working and lower middle class. Not exactly generously funded, but they got by and the local school board was actually really dedicated and drew up a sane curriculum. Right when it would have really started mattering, however (around when I was 11-12) we moved down to Florida. Lee County, to be specific, and as you might guess from the name it was... different. Because of all the rich retirees living on the coast it was actually decently funded, but the board was controlled by a voting bloc of a militant and evangelical creationist, a guy who still referred to the Civil War as the War of Yankee Aggression, and a man who was actively proud of dropping out of high school at the age of 16 and apparently decided his purpose in life was "encouraging" the kids to not go to college because hey who needs that I sure as hell didn't. Thank god I ended up in the International Baccalaureate program instead of staying in their clutches. E: Got lost in the rant and forgot this is about Holocaust teaching. I got extremely lucky in that regard. In my school you did the Holocaust unit in 8th grade (age 13-14), and my history teacher that year had some close, direct family member (an aunt, I think?) disappear into Ravensbrück. We spent what was honestly probably a bit too much class time on it, but we learned all about the pre-war buildup of antisemitism all the way to the bitter conclusion, and she very thoroughly covered that it wasn't just Jews that were targeted. This is in no way indicative of the general experience, though. Crazycryodude fucked around with this message at 02:24 on Dec 31, 2016 |
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Dec 31, 2016 02:12
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bewbies posted:edit - I'll try and do a writeup on the Homare; it kind of sucks that nearly all of the primary/technical stuff on Japanese gadgets remains in Japanese but I'll do my best ;/ I'm pretty sure I've got a few books that talk about it, I'll see what I can dig up.
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Dec 31, 2016 02:35
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Jobbo_Fett posted:I'm pretty sure I've got a few books that talk about it, I'll see what I can dig up. OMG you guys We're crowdsourcing a post! PS> Thanks for the recommendations Mr. Bewbies
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Dec 31, 2016 03:33
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It amazes me still that this is still perhaps probably the best thread on SA. Like, the Airpower thread in the guns forum is pretty good for more modern stuff, but still has some slap fights; I wonder how much of this is cultural to our subforums and how much is because history while inherently political, benefits towards sober discussion with the advantage of time to provide more objectivity and for a solid body of scholarship to be published? The discussion to argument ratio is very good is what I'm saying.
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Dec 31, 2016 03:57
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Raenir Salazar posted:It amazes me still that this is still perhaps probably the best thread on SA. I think you hit the nail on the head, most people here see gay black hitler coming a mile away and have dealt with wehraboos of all stripes for long enough to know all their entry and escape routes so that poo poo gets cut off before it even starts and it gets really easy to see who's interested in discussion and who's keldoclock.
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Dec 31, 2016 04:00
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Raenir Salazar posted:It amazes me still that this is still perhaps probably the best thread on SA. quote:The discussion to argument ratio is very good is what I'm saying.  edit: the exception to the "benefit of time" thing is a nation's founding myths or essential view of itself. things almost got heated between me and poster my dad when i told him that in my opinion, the 17th century ottomans were no worse than any other 17th century state and better than some, whereas he's got strong words about american interventionism abroad HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 04:42 on Dec 31, 2016 |
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Dec 31, 2016 04:37
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I have strong opinions about tanks, guns, and planes and anyone who disagrees with me is put on my list of people who should be iced.
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Dec 31, 2016 04:49
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*shudders* oh yeah, and i have strong pike opinions, but unless lindybeige tries to post here i am peaceful
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Dec 31, 2016 04:50
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Have you ever met a pike you didn't like? Turnpikes don't count.
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Dec 31, 2016 05:05
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All Pikes Are Beautiful
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Dec 31, 2016 05:06
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Char B, part 1 Queue: TK-3, Medium Tank Mk.II, Medium Tank Mk.III, KH-50 et al, PzIV, PzIII Ausf. A, PzIII Ausf. B through D, SR tanks Available for request:  T2E1 Light Tank M3A1 Combat Car M1 Howitzer Motor Carriage T-18  A1E1 Independent Infantry Tank Mk.I  LTP T-37 with ShKAS ZIK-20 T-12 and T-24 HTZ-16 Wartime modifications of the T-37 and T-38 SG-122 76 mm gun mod of the Matilda Tank destroyers on the T-30 and T-40 chassis 45 mm M-42 gun Soviet tractor tanks 02SS Aerosan NEW  L-10 and L-30 Strv m/40 Strv m/42 Landsverk prototypes 1943-1951  Trials of the TKS and C2P in the USSR 37 mm anti-tank gun  SR tanks  Renault NC Renault D1 Renault R35 Renault D2 Renault R40 Char B1 bis  PzI Ausf. B PzI Ausf. C PzII Ausf. a though b PzII Ausf. c through C Pak 97/38 Pz.Sfl.IVb  LT vz 35 ČKD TNH and LTP (Tanque 39) NEW Ensign Expendable fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Dec 31, 2016 |
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Dec 31, 2016 05:20
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HEY GAL posted:All Pikes Are Beautiful #musketeerlivesmatter
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Dec 31, 2016 05:24
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Cyrano4747 posted:#musketeerlivesmatter about two gulden/month less.
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Dec 31, 2016 05:32
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HEY GAL posted:*shudders* Who exactly is lindybeige? I know he's an idiot but I can't remember the specifics of why he's an idiot.
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Dec 31, 2016 05:47
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Hey guys, going to be running a trpg game set after a collapse of civilization due to WWI lasting until 1919 and a more virulent Spanish Flu. What we're both sides plans for 1919 if the Germans hadn't collapsed and what sort of weapon systems would have seen service had the war continued?
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Dec 31, 2016 05:58
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Mycroft Holmes posted:Hey guys, going to be running a trpg game set after a collapse of civilization due to WWI lasting until 1919 and a more virulent Spanish Flu. What we're both sides plans for 1919 if the Germans hadn't collapsed and what sort of weapon systems would have seen service had the war continued? Depends, how black is your Wilhelm?
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Dec 31, 2016 06:01
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FrozenVent posted:Depends, how black is your Wilhelm? I'm using the Weird War I savage worlds supplement. I plan to add the supernatural stuff after a while. What I need from you guys is just what both sides plans were.
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Dec 31, 2016 07:06
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Whatever you do include the Pedersen device, I love that stupid thing.
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Dec 31, 2016 08:58
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HEY GAL posted:edit: the exception to the "benefit of time" thing is a nation's founding myths or essential view of itself. things almost got heated between me and poster my dad when i told him that in my opinion, the 17th century ottomans were no worse than any other 17th century state and better than some, whereas he's got strong words about american interventionism abroad I know this is just you being clumsy at phrasing things, but to reply in the same tone: I had issues with an American Southerner effectively telling me that literal slavery, forced resettlement, and targeted massacres of subjugated populations aren't all that big of a deal since there were other people in the Empire to whom they weren't happening.  My reply was less "Americans  " and more trying to prod you into thinking about what exactly you were saying.e: for the record, this was years ago, when Hey Gal was random goon #458390 for all I knew, and I didn't know about her problems with phrasing things right (she phrased it really, really, really bad back then and I thought she actually meant it - I tend to avoid resorting to A is just like B comparisons since they tend to be wrong at best and intentionally misleading at worst, but at the time I thought I was dealing with a bona fide "only the ruling people of empires matter, who cares about the rest?" kind of person) my dad fucked around with this message at 10:04 on Dec 31, 2016 |
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Dec 31, 2016 09:32
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my dad posted:e: for the record, this was a years ago, when Hey Gal was random goon #458390 for all I knew, and I didn't know about her problems with phrasing things right (she phrased it really, really, really bad back then and I thought she actually meant it - I tend to avoid resorting to A is just like B comparisons since they tend to be wrong at best and intentionally misleading at worst, but at the time I thought I was dealing with a bona fide "only the ruling people of empires matter, who cares about the rest?" kind of person)
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Dec 31, 2016 09:49
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Mycroft Holmes posted:I'm using the Weird War I savage worlds supplement. I plan to add the supernatural stuff after a while. What I need from you guys is just what both sides plans were. Not sure on the plans, but they would have fought the war with the same weapons as were used in 1918. The only real possible difference is that there might be more tanks on the field.
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Dec 31, 2016 11:41
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The last couple pages made me decide that 2017 is going to be the year of doing some Serious Recreational Reading about the Ottomans.Mr Enderby posted:I know a lady who was involved in the MOD's planning for how to fight a conventional war with Russia. Apparently the conclusion was to avoid fighting a conventional war with Russia. Why is the R(oyal)N so much smaller than the R(ussian)N? Russia seems to be spending 65bn to the UK's 55bn. I'd expect the UK to be able to sort of keep an edge over the Russians given that the Navy should be a bigger priority for spending for the UK than the Russians. I've read Russian internet patriots claim that the Russians can somehow get more bang for their defense spending bucks for various economic reasons, is there something to that?
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Dec 31, 2016 12:32
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Shipbuilding is a very labor intensive business, so building ships in a country with a high cost of labor is ridiculously expensive. I've never priced out warships, but building a cargo ship in China versus North America is about a fifth to a tenth of the cost. That's one reason; I'm sure there are other more complex ones.
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Dec 31, 2016 12:36
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Cyrano4747 posted:They're closely related. Inasmuch as I am somewhat knowledgeable about Stalinism in Poland, I'm not 100% sure on how the Holocaust was presented during the period, but I don't think that the "victims of fascism" narrative was really present in the way it was in the GDR. You definitely saw the Polish victims of German atrocities given way more space than they get in Western discourse, which was to an extent done at a cost of speaking less of the Jewish victims. The gays and Roma were virtually absent from the discourse (to this day they are heavily sidelined). As for the communists, things get somewhat messy, since Stalin had disbanded the Communist Party of Poland in 1938 and exterminated its leadership and Moscow cadres, so from the Soviet point of view there were no communists in Poland until 1944. I am speculating here, but it appears that the "victims of fascism" narrative was neither really possible to spin in Poland (since most people experienced some part of the Holocaust* first-hand; they may have seen the persecution, heard of the atrocities, witnessed the murders, or even taken part in either the crimes or the system that perpetuated them), nor was it really necessary (there were more than enough Polish victims to use the experience as a means to unify the nation, there was plenty of hatred towards the Germans - both West and East - anyway, there was no need for denazification of any sort). Meanwhile, the government was busy fighting against armed resistance, while society experienced constant outbursts of antisemitic violence, which further hindered any sort of real discussion of the Holocaust. *Holocaust understood here as the totality of German persecution of Jews.
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Dec 31, 2016 12:55
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Grand Prize Winner posted:Never. (Please someone who knows more, prove me wrong) Battle of Tarutino. After Napoleon took Moscow, Kutuzov withdrew to the hamlet of Tarutino, where he founded his new headquarters in a massive walled camp. He was pursued by French avant-garde under Murat, which was, however, way too weak (numbering around 25 thousand men and 170 guns) to engage and could only observe the enemy. This was compounded by the rapidly deteriorating supply situation. However, the French expected the Russians to make peace soon, and the Russians did a lot to reinforce that belief (Murat himself met with Bennigsen in No Man's Land), but it was all a ruse. Kutuzov did not want a pitched battle - he was convinced, and with good reason, that the Russians were still to weak to survive it. But Bennigsen decided to force his superior's hand and moved his six corps (75 thousand men, 620 cannon) to attack Murat's forces, envelop them, and destroy them. Murat's troops were largely non-French. The core of his force was Poniatowski's V Corps (Polish), he also had Sébastiani's II Reserve Cavalry Corps (French), III Reserve Cavalry Corps (not sure of the commander or the troop nationality, but in 1813 it was half-French half Italian?), Latour-Maubourg's IV Reserve Cavalry Corps (half-Polish half-German), one infantry division and 1700 men of the Polish Vistula Legion. On October 18, the Russians moved against Murat. They had plenty of lucky breaks - V Corps reconnaissance somehow did not spot them coming, and the force had received a long-awaited supply of food and - especially - vodka the day before. This meant that when the main Russian attack hit Sébastiani's corps on the French left wing, almost all of the French cavalrymen were completely unfit for combat. They spent the whole night drinking and now - if they could stand - they just ran away in panic, most of them not even clothed. Moreover, Sébastiani positioned his artillery at the very front of his line, meaning it was instantly lost as his entire corps just collapsed. The Russians were slightly slowed down by the plunder and drinking, but quickly moved on... ...only to find out, to their surprise, that the Poles were sober. The battle was a prolonged and confused affair, but V Corps managed not only to retreat in good order, but also cover the withdrawal of Murat's other formations. Poniatowski maintained good discipline in his units, he would get the cavalrymen up at 4 a.m. every day and order them to mount up and sit in the saddle, without talking loudly or smoking, until dawn, then dismount, but stay with the horses, and he and his staff always took part in that to provide good example. This was doubly surprising, since just a couple years before he was a decadent socialite and - even though he had plenty of prior military experience - few people expected he could turn out to be not just possibly a brave soldier, but an expert commander and great organizer.
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Dec 31, 2016 13:25
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That was an interesting little read tevery thanks for sharing that
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Dec 31, 2016 13:38
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FrozenVent posted:Shipbuilding is a very labor intensive business, so building ships in a country with a high cost of labor is ridiculously expensive. I've never priced out warships, but building a cargo ship in China versus North America is about a fifth to a tenth of the cost. New Zealand could invest in some new shipyards and then use them to build specialized civilian ships as long as military demand is low. This way, they would have the capacity to construct their own ships instead of having to buy leftovers like this. Of course, to go from a real example of this happening, our German shipyards still have problems, so building high-quality ships instead of cheap poo poo is not a perfect solution. It's just a solution, since it neatly prevents your workforce from being outcompeted by China and North America: If your customers want cheaper ships, they'd never think about buying your crap, anyway. Different target groups, so to speak. That said, New Zealand probably needs to borrow a lot of money for the necessary investments first. Don't know if that tiny country could do this on their own, maybe the rest of the Commonwealth could help out?
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Dec 31, 2016 13:40
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Tevery Best posted:the Poles were sober. No True Polishmen
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Dec 31, 2016 13:43
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VanSandman posted:Who exactly is lindybeige? I know he's an idiot but I can't remember the specifics of why he's an idiot. He's an eccentric youtube history guy. He kind of has the problem of he will read something, then make 3 logical leaps about it and then not check the things he just thought of, and present the resultant stream of consciousness as fact.
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Dec 31, 2016 13:44
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Tevery Best posted:Inasmuch as I am somewhat knowledgeable about Stalinism in Poland, I'm not 100% sure on how the Holocaust was presented during the period, but I don't think that the "victims of fascism" narrative was really present in the way it was in the GDR. Off-topic: This just came up in conversation last week at an expat bar, but it seems like none of the Poles had ever heard of the 1968 Jews in school. Was that also your experience?
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Dec 31, 2016 14:08
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HEY GAL posted:objectively, they matter less. Don't confuse incentive pay with mattering.
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Dec 31, 2016 14:35
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Mycroft Holmes posted:Hey guys, going to be running a trpg game set after a collapse of civilization due to WWI lasting until 1919 and a more virulent Spanish Flu. What we're both sides plans for 1919 if the Germans hadn't collapsed and what sort of weapon systems would have seen service had the war continued? I think the general plan was to wait until the AEF was battle-ready and then attack all along the line with a lot more tanks to force a breakthrough somewhere. I don't think there were any new wunderwaffen in the cards. But if you're playing a game, feel free to load up all the crazy poo poo that never worked; ball tanks, guns the size of football fields, hypertech zeppelins, new and exciting poison gases.
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Dec 31, 2016 14:55
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Libluini posted:New Zealand could invest in some new shipyards and then use them to build specialized civilian ships as long as military demand is low. This way, they would have the capacity to construct their own ships instead of having to buy leftovers like this. Australia spends a lot for their small navy, for example starting up or maintaining small new corporations for military use. But New Zealand don't seem interested in investment/spending. They need to pay to play, but of course seem very secure on not spending the money and getting away with their isolation. IE. There's not enough money in Australia and NZ are the poor, more isolated cousins. At least they have anzus, "5 eyes" etc support Fo3 fucked around with this message at 16:13 on Dec 31, 2016 |
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Dec 31, 2016 16:09
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aphid_licker posted:The last couple pages made me decide that 2017 is going to be the year of doing some Serious Recreational Reading about the Ottomans. I don't think the Russians have any special economic advantage. As far as their Navy goes, they've been trying to climb of out the crater the end of the Soviet Union left them in. They managed to develop a new class of SSBN to replace the very old Soviet-era Delta class subs they've been sailing on that mission, as well as keep up some of their nuclear submarine building skills - impressive considering the catasterfuck of the Russian economy in the 90s. In Surface ships, the Russian Navy is trying to re-learn the basics, building modern Corvettes and Frigates. They have a few Soviet era ships kicking around still - they will have two Kirov class battlecrusiers operational (one right now is being refurbished and upgraded), and that one terrible carrier that to the endless amusement of the Cold War thread belches black smoke like it runs on burning tires. TBH the last time the Royal Navy was discussed in the cold war thread, it was observed that the fleet had declined by 1/3rd since 2000, with declining strength in everything save ballistic missile submarines. The first two of those new class destroyers the RN built are now only being used for training, as the RN doesn't have the crews to man them properly.(This is partially budget austerity, and partially other western navies hiring British RN engineers away.) And yet, British military spending overall is still very high compared to other nations. Honestly, it's hard to look at the raw numbers and come to the conclusion the British spend more money and get worse results than many other nations in the industrialized world.
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Dec 31, 2016 16:10
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FastestGunAlive posted:That was an interesting little read tevery thanks for sharing that The Polish forces fighting under Napoleon were bad rear end, loyal and looked incredibly nice especially their elites. It always amuses me the best lancers were either the Polish or the Dutch now for the French too. Then I remember the Russian Invasion is sort of the reason why the French never did get around to establishing an independent French lancers because of all the dead soldiers and horses. Speaking of weird national historical focus the 1812 campaign weirdly gets underwritten a lot in western media until recently, despite being the sort of turning point for the conflict.
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Dec 31, 2016 16:19
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Fo3 posted:Isn't going to happen. Major civilian vessels for the west pacific seem to be all made in Korea these days. While there is a very very small commercial boat industry in Australia, it is very boom and bust. Yeah, there's probably a lot of problems I didn't think of. And additionally, if someone like Dr. Nasser ar-Raschid wants a new Mega-Yacht, he'll probably go back to Blohm & Voss first, not to some brandnew boondoggle in New Zealand. But still, maybe science vessels or something? In small-scale? It's not like New Zealand needs more then some patrol boats, I guess. The shipyards can be small. Also after looking at Blohm & Voss' website, apparently shipyards also gain money from repairs and refits, that's something New Zealand could do. And if every 5-10 years the government of New Zealand suddenly decides they need a new ship, welp, building a good one right there would be cheaper then buying whatever poo poo is leftover from some larger Commonwealth-order.
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Dec 31, 2016 16:29
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quote:only to find out, to their surprise, that the Poles were sober. New thread title.
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Dec 31, 2016 16:39
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You know who's not? Suck it mil hist nerds  Seems there's no active new zealanders, pacific islanders, Japanese or eastern aussies with a social life to beat me. Happy new year nerds. I learnt something today. Never had a clue about the Ottomans in SE asia, but makes sense when the independent nations became Islamic. Fo3 fucked around with this message at 17:01 on Dec 31, 2016 |
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Dec 31, 2016 16:59
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