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A Buttery Pastry posted:Grow up dude. It is in fact possible that both standards are perfectly reasonable, unless we are to assume that there is just one true Standard of Cleanliness? (That all women apparently agree on.)
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Dec 29, 2016 21:36
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At the point where we're turning gender norms and statistics into caricature s of maliciously toxic people and then generalizing that into "what men are like" that's no longer a cultural criticism, or some sort of sociological statistical analysis. It's just bad faith bigoted bullshit for the purpose of scoring points by punching up. It would be instantly called out as such in any other instance.FactsAreUseless posted:That's exactly what is being asked of men. That's exactly what has been being proposed and then twisted into being some sort horrible sexist idea by TB.
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Dec 29, 2016 21:40
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OwlFancier posted:The best thing for humans as a whole would be to drop that idea, and the best way to drop that idea, I think, would be to stop socializing it into people, particularly men, who then demand it of women in order for women to stop being trampled on. I take it you privilege equality of outcome over equality of opportunity.
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Dec 29, 2016 21:42
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FactsAreUseless posted:Then what are the two positions between which you would compromise to reduce total work?
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Dec 29, 2016 21:43
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the trump tutelage posted:How do you account for (say) the effects of increased testosterone in men versus women? Could it just as easily be channelled in to "feminine" expression as "masculine"? You will have to expand as I don't know what you are asking.
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Dec 29, 2016 21:43
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Jarmak posted:At the point where we're turning gender norms and statistics into caricature s of maliciously toxic people and then generalizing that into "what men are like" that's no longer a cultural criticism, or some sort of sociological statistical analysis. It's just bad faith bigoted bullshit for the purpose of scoring points by punching up. It would be instantly called out as such in any other instance. What are you even talking about?
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Dec 29, 2016 21:46
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OwlFancier posted:You will have to expand as I don't know what you are asking.
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Dec 29, 2016 21:48
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There are plenty of positive traits that if you wanted to stereotype as masculine you could. Boldness as mentioned before, bravery and a willingness to risk bodily harm for others safety would be another. However females can and do embody these traits so I think trying to say we should socialize people towards any gender stereotype is shortsighted.
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Dec 29, 2016 21:48
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Jarmak posted:That's exactly what has been being proposed and then twisted into being some sort horrible sexist idea by TB. I think the confusion here is the context of the article about this couple for whom the proposed system absolutely did not work (because the man was doofus) being the framework from which TB is approaching the topic, where other posters were trying to step outside of that framework to come up with a solution which was then attacked for failing in the framework of the article. This wasn't necessarily obvious, partly because of the way TB attacks things, so it just came across as TB ripping every proposed solution without seeming to offer one other than "read the OP". The thing I suggested doing that was totally fine sounded a lot like thing other people were suggesting doing that was misogynist as gently caress and I think it's just a confusion of context. It is good for men and women to work together and distribute chores equitably, but men should be very wary of pitfalls in their perceptions of what is equitable.
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Dec 29, 2016 21:49
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MageMage posted:What other opportunities? Name one. This comes from my experience living in former communist countries: "Czech women counter that we’re the ones who are clueless. Employed full-time under legal obligation and responsible for a family, this was their grandmothers’ and mothers’ task under socialism while feminism was a lark for bored, middle-class American housewives. Marianne A. Ferber, professor of women’s studies at the University of Illinois writes in her essay “Women in the Czech Republic: Feminism Czech Style” that today’s Czech woman has inherited a “striking mixture of strong family values with a firm attachment to the labor market, a sense of personal efficiency, and considerable independence.” She’s homemaker, breadwinner, and proud of it."
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Dec 29, 2016 21:49
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the trump tutelage posted:Testosterone correlates with aggression and competitiveness. In a society that does not socialize for "masculine" traits, do you foresee men successfully channelling their inclination to aggression and competitiveness into feminine traits, or are men simply at a disadvantage? You could always treat excessive testosterone as a medical condition and treat it the same way you would breast cancer, as a condition which disproportionately affects a particular sex. I mean I have no idea what my own testosterone levels are but I think my socialization quite effectively killed my competitiveness and aggression at least well enough that I am a much better person than I'd be if someone was dumb enough to encourage them. SpaceCadetBob posted:There are plenty of positive traits that if you wanted to stereotype as masculine you could. Boldness as mentioned before, bravery and a willingness to risk bodily harm for others safety would be another. However females can and do embody these traits so I think trying to say we should socialize people towards any gender stereotype is shortsighted. "Boldness" as a willingness to take risks is only virtuous as long as it is your self you are risking, when it's other people it is simply arrogance. This can be better served by teaching people that the self has little innate value, and they should be willing to spend it for the benefit of others. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Dec 29, 2016 |
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Dec 29, 2016 21:50
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Dead Cosmonaut posted:This comes from my experience living in former communist countries: What do the men in these countries do? Lounge around producing sperm?
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Dec 29, 2016 21:51
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SpaceCadetBob posted:There are plenty of positive traits that if you wanted to stereotype as masculine you could. Boldness as mentioned before, bravery and a willingness to risk bodily harm for others safety would be another. However females can and do embody these traits so I think trying to say we should socialize people towards any gender stereotype is shortsighted. unlimited shrimp fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Dec 29, 2016 |
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Dec 29, 2016 21:53
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Nevvy Z posted:I think the confusion here is the context of the article about this couple for whom the proposed system absolutely did not work (because the man was doofus) being the framework from which TB is approaching the topic, where other posters were trying to step outside of that framework to come up with a solution which was then attacked for failing in the framework of the article. This wasn't necessarily obvious, partly because of the way TB attacks things, so it just came across as TB ripping every proposed solution without seeming to offer one other than "read the OP".
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Dec 29, 2016 21:55
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TIL choir wheels are the shield of the patriarchy, also:Wasting posted:This is the worst thread in D&D
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Dec 29, 2016 21:56
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A Buttery Pastry posted:You want me to make
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Dec 29, 2016 21:57
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the trump tutelage posted:I think what they're saying is that of all the traits that are socially constructed as masculine and feminine, the "feminine" ones are more conducive to creating a healthy and happy society. Gender stereotypes just muddy the waters. Correct, I am disagreeing with the idea that the goal should be to introduce socialization which is currently considered masculine into feminine socializing and instead suggesting that eliminating most masculine socialized traits is far preferable. Obviously masculine and feminine would cease to make sense if you actually achieved a universal socialization, I use the terms because they describe currently existing things, not because they represent my ideals.
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Dec 29, 2016 21:57
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FactsAreUseless posted:I'm saying your position relies on cleanliness being optional, and the assumption that a reasonable standard for cleaning is found by averaging out his standards and hers. Which assumes that her standard is unnecessarily high. Which is exactly what people have been saying about men dismissing their partners' concerns as not being real. That's literally the opposite though. If her concerns aren't real then we don't average hers and mine, I just ignore her unreal concerns. Compromise implicitly accepts that validity of her concerns.
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Dec 29, 2016 21:59
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Nevvy Z posted:That's literally the opposite though. If her concerns aren't real then we don't average hers and mine, I just ignore her unreal concerns. Compromise implicitly accepts that validity of her concerns. This shouldn't require pages and pages of debate. The only point that was made is "sometimes men don't realize they aren't doing enough around the house." The response to that shouldn't be to split hairs for 400 pages until you feel better about yourself or whatever dumb nonsense. That's not even the sole topic of the thread, it was just one point that was made among several that I quoted as a jumping-off point for discussions, and yet somehow it needs to be a matter for mind-numbing examination.
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Dec 29, 2016 22:03
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stone cold posted:What are you even talking about? I didn't get to reply earlier because, ironically enough, I've been busy doing housework all day. But back where I last posted the suggestion that open communication should help it was countered by painting the hypothetical chore conflict as more and more outright manipulative and toxic on the man's part. I said that the hypothetical had gone all the way into "immature toxic rear end in a top hat, sever" and TB responded by telling me this was horribly sexist because you see that's what men are like. That's the exact context I was responding to, I felt like the thread had circled the same drain close enough that my response was still relevant outside of original context but gently caress it there it is just for clarity sake.
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Dec 29, 2016 22:04
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Several hundred posts squalling about doing the housework. It's like I'm already married. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 29, 2016 22:05
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FactsAreUseless posted:I'm saying your position relies on cleanliness being optional, and the assumption that a reasonable standard for cleaning is found by averaging out his standards and hers. Which assumes that her standard is unnecessarily high. Which is exactly what people have been saying about men dismissing their partners' concerns as not being real. Not at all, you seem to have some hosed up idea that there's one true and pure cleanliness standard instead of there being a wide range of valid preferences.
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Dec 29, 2016 22:06
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Jarmak posted:Not at all, you seem to have some hosed up idea that there's one true and pure cleanliness standard instead of the being a wide range of valid preferences.
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Dec 29, 2016 22:07
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But also this argument has been going on for 10 pages and obviously nobody's going to drop it - and I'm happy to include myself there - so uh... guess there aren't more meaningful discussions to be had on this topic. So I'm closing this.
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Dec 29, 2016 22:08
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This thread's been closed a couple days, so I think it's reasonable to open it back up now. Let's all try not to accuse each other of being secret [noun/adjective] and just try to have a discussion. If you have a problem with a post or poster, PM a mod. That goes for the admins as well. Also, let's try to talk about something other than housework.
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Jan 1, 2017 22:20
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Strip clubs make me really sad. I'm too woke to enjoy them.
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Jan 2, 2017 00:19
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FactsAreUseless posted:Also, let's try to talk about something other than housework. Sure, one thing I'd love to discuss is toxic masculinity, specifically how delegitimization of "un-masculine" emotions is used as a technique of control in male-dominated spaces. Any perceived dissent toward the most toxic male is often dismissed as crying (what's your problem, big boys don't cry, cry moar/QQ, etc), and there's two problematic elements here: first, crying is one of the most honest expressions of anguish available to a human, and defining it as a negative trait / using it to express dissatisfaction with others' male performance undermines the very idea of humanness; second, as history and everyday experience demonstrates time and time again, those least suited to power are the most likely to seek it out -- whether we're talking about something as high-level as government, as integral to society as fatherhood, or as simple as volunteer administration. We often end up with toxic men masquerading as leaders or, perhaps more insidiously, as teachers, and perpetuating the cycle. What do you think we can do about this?
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Jan 2, 2017 00:50
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Wasting posted:Sure, one thing I'd love to discuss is toxic masculinity, specifically how delegitimization of "un-masculine" emotions is used as a technique of control in male-dominated spaces. Any perceived dissent toward the most toxic male is often dismissed as crying (what's your problem, big boys don't cry, cry moar/QQ, etc), and there's two problematic elements here: first, crying is one of the most honest expressions of anguish available to a human, and defining it as a negative trait / using it to express dissatisfaction with others' male performance undermines the very idea of humanness; second, as history and everyday experience demonstrates time and time again, those least suited to power are the most likely to seek it out -- whether we're talking about something as high-level as government, as integral to society as fatherhood, or as simple as volunteer administration. Shoot them all obviously  I think probably the best option is likely to change what we teach people. I can't think of any particularly good method of unseating the already established people but making sure your kids don't grow up thinking their ideas are good is probably a good way to cut it down next generation. Changing attitudes may help currently but short of violent overthrow it's pretty difficult to get entrenched power out of power. Making sure the next generation has greater popular opposition to that thinking and waiting for them to die can achieve a lot in the long run.
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Jan 2, 2017 00:56
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Nevvy Z posted:Strip clubs make me really sad. I'm too woke to enjoy them. You have to go with people who are there to look at or touch (location depending) titties who have the option of not paying to do so. It's only as sad as you and the people you're with. Some places actually have decent performances, as well, like acrobatics involving kerosene and fire.
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Jan 2, 2017 00:58
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It seriously makes me cry when I see people get extremely angry over their boys, often toddler age, wanting to try on mommys dress or shoes or makeup. Also my wife wont let mine wear robes because she doesnt want him to look like a girl, and is also sporadically concerned that his toys be properly gendered.
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Jan 2, 2017 01:16
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GlyphGryph posted:It seriously makes me cry when I see people get extremely angry over their boys, often toddler age, wanting to try on mommys dress or shoes or makeup. Makeup and women's fashion, at least popularly, exists to please men. I see no less need in discouraging toxic masculine behavior than discouraging female performance, regardless of the sex in question.
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Jan 2, 2017 01:23
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Wasting posted:Makeup and women's fashion, at least popularly, exists to please men. That is only partly true and even that part is a huge oversimplification. Women have agency even in a society that objectifies them.
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Jan 2, 2017 01:31
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Wasting posted:Makeup and women's fashion, at least popularly, exists to please men. There are definitely a whole load of problematic things with how women are expected to appear for men's sake but this statement seems very strong to me. I mean, I myself am a gormless nerd who has been wearing the same boring clothes for years out of fear of more than two minutes of clothes shopping at a time, but from what I hear there do exist some normal human people who just take some enjoyment out of the way they look for reasons other than sexual attraction? This is just what I've been told.
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Jan 2, 2017 01:33
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:That is only partly true and even that part is a huge oversimplification. Women have agency even in a society that objectifies them. I don't disagree at all, thus my admittedly weak "at least popularly" qualification, specifically with regard to fashion and not makeup. Perhaps you'd like to speak to the post I quoted, instead of me. Is it not possible for someone's son to engage in problematic female performance through mimicry of the mother? Where would you take issue (if at all)? edit: inversion Wasting fucked around with this message at 01:46 on Jan 2, 2017 |
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Jan 2, 2017 01:38
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Wasting posted:Sure, one thing I'd love to discuss is toxic masculinity, specifically how delegitimization of "un-masculine" emotions is used as a technique of control in male-dominated spaces. Any perceived dissent toward the most toxic male is often dismissed as crying (what's your problem, big boys don't cry, cry moar/QQ, etc), and there's two problematic elements here: first, crying is one of the most honest expressions of anguish available to a human, and defining it as a negative trait / using it to express dissatisfaction with others' male performance undermines the very idea of humanness; second, as history and everyday experience demonstrates time and time again, those least suited to power are the most likely to seek it out -- whether we're talking about something as high-level as government, as integral to society as fatherhood, or as simple as volunteer administration. The biggest thing is that we all react relatively predictably to this type of dominating behavior, and preferably people should be conditioned to spot, acknowledge and dismiss this behavior when it presents itself. The problem is that much of this innate response to dominating behavior is part of how we bring up children and the subconscious imprinting that we do on the kids coupled with biological fundamentals. For example, how we more easily see leadership potential in tall persons, or that crying can be a sign of lesser social rank. So unsurprisingly I believe that a bottom up approach would be needed to solve these problems long term. However, of how to adjust parent/child interactions to facilitate this I have no idea.
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Jan 2, 2017 01:46
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Wasting posted:I don't disagree at all, thus my admittedly weak "at least popularly" qualification, specifically with regard to makeup and not fashion. Perhaps you'd like to speak to the post I quoted, instead of me. Is it not possible for someone's son to engage in problematic female performance through mimicry of the mother? Where would you take issue (if at all)? I... guess? Children's brains aren't grown in all the way yet, so they can often behave imperfectly. If a kid's doing some kind of Elks Club misogyny drag revue then maybe ask where he picked that up, sure, but somehow I don't think the parents freaking out about Junior sliding around in his mom's heels are upset because they think he's being regressive about gender roles.
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Jan 2, 2017 01:46
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Wasting posted:You have to go with people who are there to look at or touch (location depending) titties who have the option of not paying to do so. It's only as sad as you and the people you're with. Some places actually have decent performances, as well, like acrobatics involving kerosene and fire. It's fully sad and a barely disguised front for human trafficking.
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Jan 2, 2017 01:50
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:I... guess? Children's brains aren't grown in all the way yet, so they can often behave imperfectly. If a kid's doing some kind of Elks Club misogyny drag revue then maybe ask where he picked that up, sure, but somehow I don't think the parents freaking out about Junior sliding around in his mom's heels are upset because they think he's being regressive about gender roles. The poster in question seemed fairly in tune with ideas about gender and society, so I don't think it's a stretch to think that the discussion of gender roles is something that has come up in their household, but I appreciate that children are typically formless in most areas of development. I think that's why we all intuitively understand how important it is that they are exposed to a positive environment.
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Jan 2, 2017 01:51
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the white hand posted:It's fully sad and a barely disguised front for human trafficking. It definitely can be, dependent on area, but that's kind of a generalization.
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Jan 2, 2017 01:52
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Wasting posted:I don't disagree at all, thus my admittedly weak "at least popularly" qualification, specifically with regard to fashion and not makeup. Perhaps you'd like to speak to the post I quoted, instead of me. Is it not possible for someone's son to engage in problematic female performance through mimicry of the mother? Where would you take issue (if at all)? I took GlyphGryph's post as being about anger generated merely because the kid does things that appear feminine - could I ask where you would draw a line as to where imitating women in this kid's life would become an issue? I was thinking it was just the kid experimenting with different clothes and different looks, which doesn't really seem to be an issue in itself. I'm uh, far from an expert on the social implications of fashion, mind you. e: i think TB's basically already made my point at this point, though, and we're all basically in agreement as to everything other than specifically what GlyphGryph's friend's child is doing with their time so feel free to move on to something more exciting if you want Angepain fucked around with this message at 01:55 on Jan 2, 2017 |
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Jan 2, 2017 01:52
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