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the trump tutelage posted:At least in terms of the thread topic, treating women and women's bodies as accessories seems far more pervasive and toxic than the exchange of sex for money. In many cases they are the same thing.
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Jan 2, 2017 02:57
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the white hand posted:What I am saying is, I don't know how you could have construed what I said as disingenuous. Sure I phrased it a little sarcastically, but that's because there is a pretty obvious connection between men participating in sex trafficking and they, themselves, experiencing negative effects. That's why I am baffled that posters are treating this discussion as irrelevant to the purpose of the thread. You made up something I didn't say and then sarcastically mocked me for it while ignoring the point I'd actually made, after I had already explicitly stated that if the conversation were brought back around to focus on the impact on men that would be fine. You did this while you, yourself, were the primary actor in refocusing the existing, men-focused conversation (all two posts of it) to talk solely about the women involved and the impact on them. If you aren't being disingenious, you should stop posting, because it's clear your emotional closeness to the issue is rendering you incapable of discussing it honestly in a way that is about the impact on men, and if you want to talk about sexual exploitation and it's effects on victims you can do it somewhere else.
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Jan 2, 2017 02:58
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the white hand posted:In many cases they are the same thing. Yes, definitely.
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Jan 2, 2017 02:58
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Wasting posted:Where did I accuse any of you of being on the latter? It's a real issue. If you're saying that this Wasting posted:I, personally, believe that a lot of the ideas expressed in this thread are rooted in a more fundamental sexism masquerading as concern over the exploitation of women. That we need to protect them from themselves and their own sexuality. isn't an accusation, then we're basically playing Debate Team I'm-Not-Touching-You-Why-Are-You-Mad, here. It's this statement that you should have provided evidence for.
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Jan 2, 2017 03:00
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GlyphGryph posted:You did this while you, yourself, were the primary actor in refocusing the existing, men-focused conversation (all two posts of it) to talk solely about the women involved and the impact on them. You know sometimes, to talk about what affects men you have to talk about women for a minute. This is a tough break and I don't know how to counsel you about it other than steeling yourself.
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Jan 2, 2017 03:00
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please both of you stop oh god
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Jan 2, 2017 03:01
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Wasting posted:Sure, one thing I'd love to discuss is toxic masculinity, specifically how delegitimization of "un-masculine" emotions is used as a technique of control in male-dominated spaces. Any perceived dissent toward the most toxic male is often dismissed as crying (what's your problem, big boys don't cry, cry moar/QQ, etc), and there's two problematic elements here: first, crying is one of the most honest expressions of anguish available to a human, and defining it as a negative trait / using it to express dissatisfaction with others' male performance undermines the very idea of humanness; second, as history and everyday experience demonstrates time and time again, those least suited to power are the most likely to seek it out -- whether we're talking about something as high-level as government, as integral to society as fatherhood, or as simple as volunteer administration. So I don't have a good answer to the question, but I think your observation in the first paragraph is good.
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Jan 2, 2017 03:02
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"Hey you might be participating in an exploitative system" "gently caress off this is about things that affect ME"
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Jan 2, 2017 03:02
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It would be nice if the thread could go a few hours without being closed again.
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Jan 2, 2017 03:03
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the white hand posted:You know sometimes, to talk about what affects men you have to talk about women for a minute. This is a tough break and I don't know how to counsel you about it other than steeling yourself. Would you accept this as an excuse from a man coming into a feminism thread, specifically a feminism thread about how the patriarchy effects women, to talk about how a particular issue effects men? Could you imagine coming in, and derailing an actual conversation about the effect on women, and derailing things for many posts with all appearances of the discussion of men dominating the conversation for the next several pages and, when called on nit, responding with the white hand posted:You know sometimes, to talk about what affects women you have to talk about men for a minute. This is a tough break and I don't know how to counsel you about it other than steeling yourself. Holy poo poo no wonder this thread was locked. The only person here capable of actually talking about the topic is Angepain, as far as I can tell (I finally read back through the several pages before it was locked, and wow. Wow.) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 2, 2017 03:04
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Wasting posted:This is where the original opposition to me appeared: admitting that I've visited strip clubs. Is it possible to do that while opposing exploitation? Yes, although you probably can't do it and still be consistent with your ideals.
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Jan 2, 2017 03:05
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the trump tutelage posted:The last thread was derailed by second guessing people's motivations and assuming everyone was a lovely troll. Can we give people more a benefit of the doubt this time around? I love how these D&D threads about a social movement where one of mantras is 'intent doesn't matter' often devolve into amateur psychoanalyses of various posters' intentions, hopes, dreams, and desires. silence_kit fucked around with this message at 03:09 on Jan 2, 2017 |
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Jan 2, 2017 03:05
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GlyphGryph posted:Would you accept this as an excuse from a man coming into a feminism thread, specifically a feminism thread about how the patriarchy effects women, to talk about how a particular issue effects men? Haha no, of course not
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Jan 2, 2017 03:06
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GlyphGryph posted:You made up something I didn't say and then sarcastically mocked me for it while ignoring the point I'd actually made, after I had already explicitly stated that if the conversation were brought back around to focus on the impact on men that would be fine. This goes for everyone else, too. If you think someone is derailing, or cheerleading, or posting in bad faith, all those things can be reported.
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Jan 2, 2017 03:09
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GlyphGryph posted:Would you accept this as an excuse from a man coming into a feminism thread, specifically a feminism thread about how the patriarchy effects women, to talk about how a particular issue effects men? Are you saying that the way that men observe and treat women has no effect on men?
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Jan 2, 2017 03:09
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One effect of patriarchy that affects men is in nursing, you really don't find too many male nurses in Labor and Delivery. Never mind that the gynecologist may be male, but everywhere I have worked I have noticed that you just don't find them in that area. You may find them working in the nursery and maybe Post-partum, but when it comes to actually helping deliver the baby, it's a rarity. Another thing is that you will have female patients that don't want male nurses/nursing assistants changing them, but most male patients have no problem with female nurses/nursing assistants changing them.
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Jan 2, 2017 03:12
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blackguy32 posted:One effect of patriarchy that affects men is in nursing, you really don't find too many male nurses in Labor and Delivery. Never mind that the gynecologist may be male, but everywhere I have worked I have noticed that you just don't find them in that area. You may find them working in the nursery and maybe Post-partum, but when it comes to actually helping deliver the baby, it's a rarity. Are men actively discouraged from pursuing nursing careers, do you think, the same way they are from pursuing childcare careers? Or is it more a result of "any man who would be inclined to pursue a nursing career probably has the opportunity to pursue a more 'prestigious' alternative in the medical field and will likely go for that instead"? Basically, are the numbers from men being pushed out of nursing or from women being pushed in? Although the second point does bring to mind one of the absolute biggest impacts on men, and something that really is worth discussing: The Patriarchy makes people afraid of men. Harmless, kind, gentle men will often be feared. They will often not be seen as trustworthy. Especially if they are also lower income, since wealthy people get nice perceptual bonuses to "safe", or a minority, in which case they will often be seen as "potentially criminal".
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Jan 2, 2017 03:20
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Angepain posted:If you're saying that this That's fair. I can't say why any of you write the things you do, and maybe I shouldn't have written as such. But I'm always suspicious of an opinion when it aligns with a real issue. Certain posters assumed the worst in me, and I'm human as well, so I tend to assume the worst in them as well. FAU. Thank you. Your last clause is the issue that we're all struggling with. Healthy is an entirely loaded concept, especially if we're debating gender issues.
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Jan 2, 2017 03:22
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And it really loving sucks. Good luck getting a job like being a daycare provider, as a dude, especially if you don't have a women to put in front of you as the 'face' of the operation. I even got some really sketchy and incredulous responses when I went to class for teaching because why would a guy want to teach kids, what was he up to? I wasn't even aware the suspicion had extended that far, I thought male teachers were still common. Almost everyone in my classes except me were women, and the few men were going for high school teaching positions.
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Jan 2, 2017 03:33
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GlyphGryph posted:Are men actively discouraged from pursuing nursing careers, do you think, the same way they are from pursuing childcare careers? Or is it more a result of "any man who would be inclined to pursue a nursing career probably has the opportunity to pursue a more 'prestigious' alternative in the medical field and will likely go for that instead"? Basically, are the numbers from men being pushed out of nursing or from women being pushed in? No, I don't think men are being pushed out from nursing at all. In fact, I think the number of men in nursing is growing. But rather specific fields of nursing tend not to have many men in them. I probably should do the research as to the why. But there is the common question you usually get: "Why not become a doctor?"
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Jan 2, 2017 03:35
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Angepain posted:I think we did get a bit off track there, though the pressure from other guys to take part in the ol' patriarchal objectivation is definitely an issue which has a lot to bite into. Sometimes you can't even avoid it, even when you are avoiding it. I was sent to work at the office of one of our contractors in South Africa for a few months this year, replacing on short notice some other staff from the UK who were sent home after they partied too hard and got in big trouble. Apparently they also had a habit of visiting a particular strip club, and from the moment I arrived there was a presumption on the part of all the male staff employed directly by the contractor that the replacement staff (including me) would be continuing to frequent the place. Initially people assumed I was making excuses because I was shy or something, but after the rumours got around that the previous staff were sent home for indiscretion everyone immediately assumed I was going and just covering my rear end with the denials.
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Jan 2, 2017 03:54
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Tesseraction posted:Are you saying that the way that men observe and treat women has no effect on men? I wish I could troll half as well as you do
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Jan 2, 2017 04:01
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Wasting posted:It's impossible for me -- or you, for that matter -- to ensure that any person, whatever business they are engaged in, isn't being exploited in that business relationship. Admittedly, this is an industry where it is more common. Indeed, my friend, which is why there's no such thing as ethical consumption under capitalism. The thing is, though, that while we may be aware that there might be a certain amount of exploitation inherent to any business relationship, for some businesses, it's not only known, but proven. Is it applicable to absolutely every person engaged in that business? No, absolutely not, but it's commonplace enough to give you good reason to be weary and probably treat such institutions more critically than others.
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Jan 2, 2017 04:10
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Rush Limbo posted:Indeed, my friend, which is why there's no such thing as ethical consumption under capitalism. Thank you for this, but it leads back to the same question: do we ban exotic dance (as euphemistic as it is) and prostitution, or do we adopt models from abroad that protect the agency of those involved? The answer is clear, if you're paying attention at all. There is no evidence that the majority of strippers are victimized in their choice of profession. No doubt, it does happen, but that is, and I'm entirely guessing here (and I'd love to see some kind of concrete figures) the vast minority in North America. It's fine to be critical, but it's part of our society, and instead of demonizing the men who patronize these establishments and the women who staff them, it's better to advocate for protections under law. Edit: And seriously, most of you suck. With respect to this issue. Wasting fucked around with this message at 04:23 on Jan 2, 2017 |
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Jan 2, 2017 04:19
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Wasting posted:Thank you for this, but it leads back to the same question: do we ban exotic dance (as euphemistic as it is) and prostitution, or do we adopt models from abroad that protect the agency of those involved? The answer is clear, if you're paying attention at all. There is no evidence that the majority of strippers are victimized in their choice of profession. No doubt, it does happen, but that is, and I'm entirely guessing here (and I'd love to see some kind of concrete figures) the vast minority in North America. It's fine to be critical, but it's part of our society, and instead of demonizing the men who patronize these establishments and the women who staff them, it's better to advocate for protections under law. Perhaps we can suggest that men should not patronize industries complicit with the exploitation of women while simultaneously attempting to provide the women working in those industries with support to avoid exploitation?
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Jan 2, 2017 04:25
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Wasting posted:It's fine to be critical, but it's part of our society, and instead of demonizing the men who patronize these establishments and the women who staff them, it's better to advocate for protections under law. Could you helpfully quote some of the people who are demonizing the men who patronize strip clubs and especially the women who staff them? You've mentioned it so often it should be pretty trivial to show me some concrete examples, right?
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Jan 2, 2017 04:27
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OwlFancier posted:Perhaps we can suggest that men should not patronize industries complicit with the exploitation of women while simultaneously attempting to provide the women working in those industries with support to avoid exploitation? You're demonizing sexuality, sex workers, and exotic dancers on the assumption that there are better, more puritan careers for them to engage in. It's ridiculous. If that's what they're good at and interested in, what's the problem?
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Jan 2, 2017 04:28
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Yo here's my contribution for the evening. [I accidentally posted it in the regular feminism thread first oops] So here is like, #masculinitysofragile ground zero. How does patriarchy hurt men? by policing their actions so hard they can't even put their hands over their face without it being disgusting and feminine. Under patriarchy a woman is the worst thing you can be. Ergo, the worst way you can insult a man is by saying he is like a woman. Gentlemen, regardless of your sexual orientation, it must be exhausting to have to live every day navigating a constant minefield of whether your actions are "masculine" enough to avoid ridicule and ostracizing. Like, not even being able to wear certain colors because they're too "gay." Or moving your hips too much when you dance. Witch Hammer up there is in a social situation that must cause him constant anxiety, that even the smallest mistake can mean he is no longer masculine and acceptable. That's no way to have a healthy society.
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Jan 2, 2017 04:28
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Who What Now posted:Could you helpfully quote some of the people who are demonizing the men who patronize strip clubs and especially the women who staff them? You've mentioned it so often it should be pretty trivial to show me some concrete examples, right? You got me. It's been a really subjective slog. The issues with men, particularly me, visiting strip clubs have been about tertiary ideas. If you want a notch on your belt: here it is. But appreciate that I am one man.
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Jan 2, 2017 04:29
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Wasting posted:You're demonizing sexuality, sex workers, and exotic dancers on the assumption that there are better, more puritan careers for them to engage in. It's ridiculous. If that's what they're good at and interested in, what's the problem? Where did he mention anything about puritanism? If you keep projecting so hard you're going to blow a hole clean through the forums. Edit: Wasting posted:You got me. It's been a really subjective slog. The issues with men, particularly me, visiting strip clubs have been about tertiary ideas. If you want a notch on your belt: here it is. But appreciate that I am one man. I just want you to stop making poo poo up about anyone here "demonizing" people when that's clearly not something that's happening.
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Jan 2, 2017 04:29
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Who What Now posted:Where did he mention anything about puritanism? If you keep projecting so hard you're going to blow a hole clean through the forums. Okay. Edit: Maybe I'm not smart enough to engage on the issue here, but can you see it?
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Jan 2, 2017 04:31
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As long as exploitation is a fact of life, asking people to 'not patronize exploitative industries' is just bullshit though. Guess where the minerals from your smart phone came from? Here, let me spell it out for you: there is no ethical consumption under capitalism. You do your best, but there's no 'right' choice, not really.
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Jan 2, 2017 04:32
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Defenestration posted:Witch Hammer up there is in a social situation that must cause him constant anxiety, that even the smallest mistake can mean he is no longer masculine and acceptable. That's no way to have a healthy society. Having anxiety about this is, in and of itself, unmasculine. Maybe this is why many hypermasculine people will respond to violence if you put them in a situation where they can't help but be anxious about making a mistake, or anxious they could be seen to have already made a mistake. They gotta quickly try to drown out both their own anxiety and distract any potential witnesses!
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Jan 2, 2017 04:33
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Wasting posted:You're demonizing sexuality, sex workers, and exotic dancers on the assumption that there are better, more puritan careers for them to engage in. It's ridiculous. If that's what they're good at and interested in, what's the problem? No, I'm entirely happy for people to undertake sex work on a voluntary basis. I am as happy about people undertaking it under economic coercion as I am with people undertaking similarly demanding work under economic coercion, which is to say not very, but that's primarily a socialist issue rather than a feminist one. I am not at all OK with the systematic, and often grossly disproportionate and violent exploitation of women which is thoroughly bound up in sex work as an industry. The sex work industry as stands is not ethical, you should not support it. If you want to work out sex work arrangements with individual women that is up to you but it is incumbent upon you as the person with the economic power in that activity to ensure that that is not exploitative. rudatron posted:As long as exploitation is a fact of life, asking people to 'not patronize exploitative industries' is just bullshit though. Guess where the minerals from your smart phone came from? You don't have to go to strip clubs or hire sex workers, you can quite easily do without those things. You probably need a phone in order to get and keep a job, the two are not commensurable. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 04:37 on Jan 2, 2017 |
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Jan 2, 2017 04:35
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It's a thorny issue, and I personally think even the best solutions we can come up with are merely a band aid while the larger problem doesn't seem to be getting tackled, namely, why is sex considered a need, or rather why is the propagation of your future, potential self deemed to be on the same level of need as the existence of your current self? If I don't have food and drink, I will die. That's a pretty demonstrable thing. As such, I believe food and drink should be a pretty fundamental, unalienable right. I don't necessarily believe the same thing about sex, or even propagation of the species, which sex is pretty much for (on a basic level). I mean, I don't eat food and drink purely to survive, there is undeniable a pleasure aspect that comes with it, same with sex. The commodification of sex definitely seems to have given people the impression that it is a fundamental need like food and drink, though, when it is not. It's a nice perk, but I think the pressure placed upon people, particularly by society, to be seen as a normal sexhaver is doing immeasurable harm. The message being that if you're not having sex, or don't have the desire to have sex, you're a fundamentally broken person of little to no worth because everyone else is having sex all the time (citation needed) Or to put it another way: gently caress advertising forever.
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Jan 2, 2017 04:35
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This is a massive topic in itself, and is probably, more than any other reason, the number 1 cause of MRAs existing - men who do not 'fit' within masculine roles overcompensating. But to challenge something here: it's not just that the 'worst thing you can be is a woman'. Effeminate men, are actually seen as worse than women, because you don't have any 'value' attached to you.
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Jan 2, 2017 04:35
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Wasting posted:Okay. Can I see what? Strippers being demonized? No, I really can't. I really don't understand how you can read "strippers should be able to work in the safest, least-exploitive conditions reasonably possible" and somehow see that as "strippers are hussies that need to get more dignified jobs, like school marm or nun". I simply don't know how your brain is making the leap from one to the other.
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Jan 2, 2017 04:35
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I'm not going away unless FAU probates/bans me again, and I'm not unreasonable. There's no reason we can't talk to one another in a non-adversarial manner. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 2, 2017 04:36
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Who What Now posted:Can I see what? Strippers being demonized? No, I really can't. I really don't understand how you can read "strippers should be able to work in the safest, least-exploitive conditions reasonably possible" and somehow see that as "strippers are hussies that need to get more dignified jobs, like school marm or nun". I simply don't know how your brain is making the leap from one to the other. I agree with your first quotation 100%. Reread what I've posted.
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Jan 2, 2017 04:37
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GlyphGryph posted:Having anxiety about this is, in and of itself, unmasculine. oh poo poo, good point! mental healthcare is for weak unmasculine people doing the Extremely Pissed Off Right Wingers reviews in the political forward thread, I certainly notice a theme of gun nuttery paired with toxic masculinity resulting in claims like "if you so much as set foot within a thousand yards of me on my property I will straight murder you because that's what men do"  Military worship is a very basic EPORW thing but what I want to point out here is why is it a good thing to be bad at negotiation? Why is a gun the first and only tool a soldier (or a man) should have? rudatron posted:This is a massive topic in itself, and is probably, more than any other reason, the number 1 cause of MRAs existing - men who do not 'fit' within masculine roles overcompensating. do not get me started on MRAs. that shithole is so wide and deep. MRA, PUA, incel, men going their own way, all of them unhealthy coping mechanisms built up around perceived failures to Man well enough. (see: Elliot Rodger)
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Jan 2, 2017 04:43
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