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21 Muns posted:So you're saying that white people should be shot by the police under suspicious circumstances more often? Okay, cool, sounds like a sane and reasonable thing a person I want to control our society would say Sure is easier to reduce an argument to the most absurd possible conclusion than it is to actually address it on its merits, isn't it?
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Jan 2, 2017 02:29
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:Sure is easier to reduce an argument to the most absurd possible conclusion than it is to actually address it on its merits, isn't it? It's at least somewhat more helpful than ignoring an argument completely and rounding it off to the negative impression you have of everyone who disagrees with you.
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Jan 2, 2017 02:31
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It's possible that the concept privilege is a useful tool to understand society but not, actually, a particularly useful way to persuade people that you are right.
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Jan 2, 2017 02:36
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Rakosi posted:That is at odds to Do you think that not getting shot be the police is the only privilege white people have?
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Jan 2, 2017 02:39
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Nude Bog Lurker posted:It's possible that the concept privilege is a useful tool to understand society but not, actually, a particularly useful way to persuade people that you are right. Absolutely this.
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Jan 2, 2017 02:41
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Who What Now posted:Do you think that not getting shot be the police is the only privilege white people have? Here's a suggestion why don't you ask some white male workers at walmart working the night shift if they feel privileged.
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Jan 2, 2017 02:41
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The underlying problem is that Privilege's common, non-academic definition is so negative that being labled 'privileged' in the common definition is insulting. Advantage would be a better term for academia and progressives to use, since it does not have all the negative implications and assumptions that privileged carries with it. A 'Privileged person' in the common definition is a person who can bypass all the normal functions of society because of who he is. Calling a white guy privileged brings to mind getting goodies from the police for being white, or getting a discount for being a guy. It does not bring to mind 'the justice system works as intended', nor does that feel like a 'privilege' at all to most of the populace.
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Jan 2, 2017 02:44
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Crowsbeak posted:Here's a suggestion why don't you ask some white male workers at walmart working the night shift if they feel privileged. Whether or not you feel privileged has no bearing on whether or not you are privileged. And those white guys undoubtedly have a privilege that the non-whites that Wal*Mart would never consider hiring do not.
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Jan 2, 2017 02:44
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Nude Bog Lurker posted:It's possible that the concept privilege is a useful tool to understand society but not, actually, a particularly useful way to persuade people that you are right. It's almost like critique is different from suggestion.
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Jan 2, 2017 02:45
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Tesseraction posted:It's almost like critique is different from suggestion. You are living on a different planet if you don't think "privilege" is used as both.
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Jan 2, 2017 02:46
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I think an interesting issue with the "college students are terrible" criticism is that college campuses are full of emotionally unstable teenagers experiencing their first taste of autonomy. The structures they create are designed around that, so if colleges take the concepts of privilege and safe spaces and acceptable discussion formats to places you are not intuitively comfortable with, this is primarily reflective of the fact that these structures are not intended for your use. They are tailored to a place and audience which has specific needs and is creating structures to service them. So complaining that college discussions are not helpful to you, personally, a 20-30something goon on the internet or your hypothetical salt of the earth working class stereotype, is not actually very useful criticism. Colleges are places for people to experiment with ideas and their students should create the structures which serve their needs. It works for them and they will be adapted later to the realities of the environment they then come to live in, as all our ideas are. The criticism ultimately boils down to "college students don't know what the real world is like" to which my response is "you don't say..."
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Jan 2, 2017 02:47
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Pharohman777 posted:The underlying problem is that Privilege's common, non-academic definition is so negative that being labled 'privileged' in the common definition is insulting. I have never once seen "privileged" used as an insult and I have no clue how you would even do that.
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Jan 2, 2017 02:48
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Who What Now posted:Whether or not you feel privileged has no bearing on whether or not you are privileged. And those white guys undoubtedly have a privilege that the non-whites that Wal*Mart would never consider hiring do not. Well using the word 'Privilege' implies super-special opportunity no one else can have, and saying that those employees are privileged for simply being employed at wal-mart is an insult to their living and economic situation. "Getting hired at wal-mart is a privilege". is the most insulting thing to say to a guy struggling on the wage paid by walmart
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Jan 2, 2017 02:49
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Pharohman777 posted:Well using the word 'Privilege' implies super-special opportunity no one else can have, and saying that those employees are privileged for simply being employed at wal-mart is an insult to their living and economic situation. "Getting hired at wal-mart is a privilege". is the most insulting thing to say to a guy struggling on the wage paid by walmart It is a super special opportunity if it is an opportunity which is systemically denied to other groups. The prudent response should be "Wow I guess people who don't have this must have an even shittier time than I do."
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Jan 2, 2017 02:52
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Pharohman777 posted:Well using the word 'Privilege' implies super-special opportunity no one else can have, What? No, seriously, where the hell has this definition ever been used by any mentally sound person? When my parents said playing video games were a privilege I never for a single second thought that it meant I was the only person on the entire planet that was allowed to play a video game. This definition is insane.
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Jan 2, 2017 02:54
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OwlFancier posted:It is a super special opportunity if it is an opportunity which is systemically denied to other groups. Tell that to the white people employed at wal-mart, and see how they react. I bet you are going to get a bunch more Alt-right people if you do that.
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Jan 2, 2017 02:58
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Rakosi posted:You are living on a different planet if you don't think "privilege" is used as both. Interesting that you've somehow hallucinated that I said they're never both. However my point is that something not being a valid term of discourse does not invalidate its use in analysis. I can spell this out even more simply if you require.
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Jan 2, 2017 02:58
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Pharohman777 posted:Tell that to the white people employed at wal-mart, and see how they react. Spout some private jargon of the right wing at them (for instance, call them "takers" for getting food stamps) and you might have some new Socialists on your hands.
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Jan 2, 2017 03:02
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Pharohman777 posted:Tell that to the white people employed at wal-mart, and see how they react. So your complaint is "the truth is unfair and you shouldn't say it because it will make people angry"
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Jan 2, 2017 03:02
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Pharohman777 posted:Tell that to the white people employed at wal-mart, and see how they react. And how would you change their minds, pray tell? By ignoring that there's a problem that ever needs to be addressed? If not, how are you going to address it without insulting them?
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Jan 2, 2017 03:03
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Pharohman777 posted:Tell that to the white people employed at wal-mart, and see how they react. So, once again, we should ignore the use of actual proper terms and proven, actual concepts because it would hurt people's feelings. Jesus Christ, for a bunch of people supposedly who want to bring debate and challenge concepts certain people sure are sensitive when that standard is applied to them. The white wal-mart employee is certainly privileged compared to black person who wants to be a wal-mart employee but can't. This is really, really not a difficult concept to grasp. Even if the situation the white employee in is lovely, which I have no doubt it is, it's even more lovely to not actually be able to get a lovely position because that opportunity is denied to you.
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Jan 2, 2017 03:04
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Pharohman777 posted:Tell that to the white people employed at wal-mart, and see how they react. If you introduce the concept of white privilege to someone, and they "become alt-right", nothing has changed. They were alt-right to begin with, you just hadn't asked them the question.
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Jan 2, 2017 03:15
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:If you introduce the concept of white privilege to someone, and they "become alt-right", nothing has changed. They were alt-right to begin with, you just hadn't asked them the question. Bullshit. I demand to know what question or phrase I need to ask someone in order to make them a Communist.
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Jan 2, 2017 03:19
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Rush Limbo posted:So, once again, we should ignore the use of actual proper terms and proven, actual concepts because it would hurt people's feelings. How do you explain black people who have more than Wal-mart white people, in terms of your theory?
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Jan 2, 2017 03:23
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Rakosi posted:How do you explain black people who have more than Wal-mart white people, in terms of your theory? Greater achievement compared to a white person in the same postion or random luck, same as anybody with more than someone else.
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Jan 2, 2017 03:24
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Privilege is a loaded term in a similar fashion as conservatives saying entitlements. It's meant to shame and silence those who are perceived as privileged. For example...Who What Now posted:Whether or not you feel privileged has no bearing on whether or not you are privileged. And those white guys undoubtedly have a privilege that the non-whites that Wal*Mart would never consider hiring do not. Can you seriously not comprehend how divisive this line of thought is? People struggling to eek out an existence should feel ashamed because they have the privilege to be exploited and abused by a multinational corporation? Call Me Charlie fucked around with this message at 03:29 on Jan 2, 2017 |
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Jan 2, 2017 03:25
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Tesseraction posted:Bullshit. I demand to know what question or phrase I need to ask someone in order to make them a Communist. He said that they didn't become alt-right, they were alt-right to begin with.
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Jan 2, 2017 03:27
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OwlFancier posted:Greater achievement compared to a white person in the same postion or random luck, same as anybody with more than someone else. So the white guy still has more privilege? Who has the most privilege, poor hick white dude struggling to feed his family or Bill Cosby?
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Jan 2, 2017 03:27
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Call Me Charlie posted:Privilege is a loaded term in a similar fashion as conservatives saying entitlements. It's meant to shame and silence those who are perceived as privileged. For example... Once again the belief that the term is intended to incite shame is something you believe, not something inherent to the term. Your shame is of absolutely no use to me. Rakosi posted:So the white guy still has more privilege? Who has the most privilege, poor hick white dude struggling to feed his family or Bill Cosby? Wealth is also privilege, it is neither easy not useful to try to quantify it. You don't get points for being the most or least privileged, the term exists to identify and describe factors which influence people's lives.
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Jan 2, 2017 03:28
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Call Me Charlie posted:Can you seriously not comprehend how divisive this line of thought is? People struggling to eek out an existence should feel ashamed because they have the privilege to be exploited and abused by a multinational corporation. Where did I say they should feel ashamed? That'd be news to me, considering I've explicitly said the opposite more than once.
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Jan 2, 2017 03:28
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OwlFancier posted:Wealth is also privilege, it is neither easy not useful to try to quantify it. You don't get points for being the most or least privileged, the term exists to identify and describe factors which influence people's lives. Answer my question. In my scenario is the white guy or the black guy more privileged? If this is such an accurate academic term it should be easy to answer this.
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Jan 2, 2017 03:30
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Rakosi posted:Answer my question. In my scenario is the white guy or the black guy more privileged? If this is such an accurate academic term it should be easy to answer this. You're asking me to quantify something using qualitative terms. It makes as much sense as asking whether red or blue is more colourful.
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Jan 2, 2017 03:33
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Rakosi posted:Answer my question. In my scenario is the white guy or the black guy more privileged? If this is such an accurate academic term it should be easy to answer this. Wh]ch weighs more, infinite bricks or infinite feathers? If kilograms are such an accurate academic term it should be easy to answer this.
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Jan 2, 2017 03:38
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OwlFancier posted:You're asking me to quantify something using qualitative terms. No, I am attacking your perception of privilege as a white man thing by asking you to think about dichotomies that challenge that association. Who is more privileged, the black Kanye West or the white Alana Thompson, whose self and family has been exploited by cable networks? The concept of privilege seems great at a macrosocial level but seems to utterly break down when invoked in respect to comparisons between individuals, and it is the deliberate sidelining of individual experience that makes the alt-right target this so much. Like, can you not see how it's a broadside open to attack?
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Jan 2, 2017 03:40
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Call Me Charlie posted:Can you seriously not comprehend how divisive this line of thought is? People struggling to eek out an existence should feel ashamed because they have the privilege to be exploited and abused by a multinational corporation? Again, you're assigning a concept of shame where none exists. Being privileged is not a mark of a shame. It's not a scarlet letter branded on your forehead. What it means is that, relative to other people in your position, you have an innate advantage that others do not have, thanks to circumstances beyond yours and their control. If you happen to feel feelings of shame and discomfort if, when you say something and someone points out that your circumstances are different (which is what privilege points out), then that is entirely on you. Most well-adjusted people wouldn't take it as a personal insult that maybe, just maybe they have a different life experience to someone else.
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Jan 2, 2017 03:42
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Rakosi posted:No, I am attacking your perception of privilege as a white man thing by asking you to think about dichotomies that challenge that association. Quote one person who said only white men have privilege.
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Jan 2, 2017 03:42
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Rakosi posted:No, I am attacking your perception of privilege as a white man thing by asking you to think about dichotomies that challenge that association. What are you on about? I just told you wealth is a form of privilege, possibly the most powerful form of privilege, that does not invalidate the concept of privilege.
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Jan 2, 2017 03:43
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Rakosi posted:So the white guy still has more privilege? Who has the most privilege, poor hick white dude struggling to feed his family or Bill Cosby? Bill Cosby wasn't born rich; he's a self made man. Privilege is about things about you that you can't change easily, like ethnicity, gender, sexuality. It's not about who is most "privileged" in the sense of current status.
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Jan 2, 2017 03:44
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You guys might want to communicate to the alt-right that being white doesn't necessarily make you privileged anymore. Because that is actually news for probably quite a lot of them. Edit after BarbarianElephant: Scrap that, maybe it does after all! You wacky liberals.
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Jan 2, 2017 03:44
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Rakosi posted:You guys might want to communicate to the alt-right that being white doesn't necessarily make you privileged anymore. Because that is actually news for probably quite a lot of them. For fucks sake you dense motherfucker yes it does. Privilege is not an absolute quantitative term, it is qualitative.
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Jan 2, 2017 03:47
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