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Wasting posted:I guess the amount of attention? I'm not used to it. I enjoyed your responses, though. Ok, now why did you say we were demonizing strippers? Nude Bog Lurker posted:Hey look, mine came true too! No one gives a poo poo that you hate TB.
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Jan 2, 2017 05:39
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As I replied before, it's nearly impossible to do so, but it's a very common part of our society. If I'm reprehensible for having visited a strip club, most of the men you know are as well. And I'm sorry you feel that way.
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Jan 2, 2017 05:40
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rudatron posted:As long as exploitation is a fact of life, asking people to 'not patronize exploitative industries' is just bullshit though. Guess where the minerals from your smart phone came from? All right, fair enough. So is prohibiting underage sex work similarly bullshit, and no more worth avoiding than adult sex work, until all exploitation perishes from the earth?
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Jan 2, 2017 05:40
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Who What Now posted:
Keep it up and maybe sempai will finally notice you.
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Jan 2, 2017 05:40
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Who What Now posted:Ok, now why did you say we were demonizing strippers? The sheer aggression at me having visited strippers. I'm not sure why someone would be so mad at me for having made use of their services unless they disagreed with the business at its root.
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Jan 2, 2017 05:41
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Wasting posted:As I replied before, it's nearly impossible to do so, but it's a very common part of our society. If I'm reprehensible for having visited a strip club, most of the men you know are as well. And I'm sorry you feel that way. Shut the hell up with this "reprehensible" nonsense. Edit: Wasting posted:The sheer aggression at me having visited strippers. I'm not sure why someone would be so mad at me for having made use of their services unless they disagreed with the business at its root. Absolutely nobody was aggressive with you, except right now where I'm being aggressive with you for being a willfully ignorant dipshit.
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Jan 2, 2017 05:41
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Who What Now posted:Shut the hell up with this "reprehensible" nonsense. Okay, so if I'm cool in your books, what is the problem
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Jan 2, 2017 05:42
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Wasting posted:As I replied before, it's nearly impossible to do so, but it's a very common part of our society. If I'm reprehensible for having visited a strip club, most of the men you know are as well. And I'm sorry you feel that way. Do you see any sort of... issue with the idea that you cannot suitably determine whether an action is morally objectionable, but that action is common, and if it was bad then many people would have done bad things, and it's a shame that someone might think that? Because, well, it kind of seems like appealing to inertia as a moral compass.
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Jan 2, 2017 05:42
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OwlFancier posted:Do you see any sort of... issue with the idea that you cannot suitably determine whether an action is morally objectionable, but that action is common, and if it was bad then many people would have done bad things, and it's a shame that someone might think that? Absolutely. And we've been over it. It's a problematic industry and I'm imperfect.
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Jan 2, 2017 05:43
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Wasting posted:The sheer aggression at me having visited strippers. I'm not sure why someone would be so mad at me for having made use of their services unless they disagreed with the business at its root. Not really, it's in line with the Nordic model (prosecute johns, provide services to women doing sex work). In this case it's perfectly sensible to see strippers as women with agency who can take pride in their work, and their customers as greasy perverts.
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Jan 2, 2017 05:43
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Wasting posted:The sheer aggression at me having visited strippers. I'm not sure why someone would be so mad at me for having made use of their services unless they disagreed with the business at its root. Quote this "aggression"
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Jan 2, 2017 05:43
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Wasting posted:As I replied before, it's nearly impossible to do so, but it's a very common part of our society. If I'm reprehensible for having visited a strip club, most of the men you know are as well. And I'm sorry you feel that way. Why do you think I am judging you when I am not? I said nothing about your character. In fact, this is my first post related to strip clubs.
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Jan 2, 2017 05:44
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the white hand posted:Not really, it's in line with the Nordic model (prosecute johns, provide services to women doing sex work). In this case it's perfectly sensible to see strippers as women with agency who can take pride in their work, and their customers as greasy perverts. See, I agree with this. If a woman wants to do this, why not?
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Jan 2, 2017 05:44
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Wasting posted:Absolutely. And we've been over it. It's a problematic industry and I'm imperfect. But... you just said that. If you think there's a problem with it then why would you say it?
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Jan 2, 2017 05:44
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the white hand posted:Not really, it's in line with the Nordic model (prosecute johns, provide services to women doing sex work). In this case it's perfectly sensible to see strippers as women with agency who can take pride in their work, and their customers as greasy perverts. I want to point out that, as I recently had my eyes opened in the feminism thread, the Nordic model has some glaring blind spots regarding protecting sex workers. They aren't allowed to collaborate or unionize. It's a step in the right direction but sex workers still deserve a lot better
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Jan 2, 2017 05:45
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blackguy32 posted:Why do you think I am judging you when I am not? I said nothing about your character. In fact, this is my first post related to strip clubs. If you aren't and I responded to you as such, I apologize. I'm just trying to talk about these issues, but most of the replies seem to be for me.
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Jan 2, 2017 05:45
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Wasting posted:See, I agree with this. If a woman wants to do this, why not? The issue is, that you have just said you can't tell at all whether that is the case. So that cannot be a justification.
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Jan 2, 2017 05:45
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OwlFancier posted:But... you just said that. I think there is a potential problem, but perhaps its overstated. There's ways to adapt this industry.
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Jan 2, 2017 05:46
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OwlFancier posted:The issue is, that you have just said you can't tell at all whether that is the case. Maybe I have too much going on IRL or I'm an idiot but I have no idea what you're getting at. Keep in mind basically everyone else in the thread has a beef with me. It's not that I find yours unimportant and I'd like to respond to it
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Jan 2, 2017 05:47
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Wasting posted:I think there is a potential problem, but perhaps its overstated. There's ways to adapt this industry. There is a potential problem, but it is nearly impossible to tell whether someone is being trafficked or exploited, but perhaps it is overstated? It would sort of seem that you're saying "I have no idea how bad this is but I think it's probably not that bad." You seem to be making this decision basically entirely on gut feeling.
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Jan 2, 2017 05:48
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Imagine for a moment that every time you went to a strip club, an unknowable percentage of the time, there was a risk that you yourself would be enslaved and raped. Would you still go? Would the fact that it's impossible to determine the percentage put your mind at ease when you went?
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Jan 2, 2017 05:49
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OwlFancier posted:There is a potential problem, but it is nearly impossible to tell whether someone is being trafficked or exploited, but perhaps it is overstated? Could you give me your assessment on the industry as opposed to constantly criticizing mine? I've been very open and agreeable. What is your conception?
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Jan 2, 2017 05:49
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:I want to point out that, as I recently had my eyes opened in the feminism thread, the Nordic model has some glaring blind spots regarding protecting sex workers. They aren't allowed to collaborate or unionize. It's a step in the right direction but sex workers still deserve a lot better Oh I completely agree! I was just at a presentation by a researcher who had visited Norway on a Fulbright scholarship. From what she said about Norway it sounds largely positive, but I've read about cases in Sweden where police use the new laws to get women evicted from their apartments by threatening to charge landlords with third-party solicitation. But she also talked about some of the totally legal and above-board brothels in Germany, and how trafficking and STDs are rampant there as well, despite (I believe) unions being legal. It's an incredibly tangled issue and there are people I have worked with and respect with many different opinions.
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Jan 2, 2017 05:50
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Imagine for a moment that every time you went to a strip club, an unknowable percentage of the time, there was a risk that you yourself would be enslaved and raped. Would you still go? Would the fact that it's impossible to determine the percentage put your mind at ease when you went? I wouldn't, you're right. But maybe I'm not like you. I have a hard time with moral black and white. It's really demoralizing how much you want to fight me on my posts as opposed to discuss.
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Jan 2, 2017 05:51
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the white hand posted:Oh I completely agree! I was just at a presentation by a researcher who had visited Norway on a Fulbright scholarship. From what she said about Norway it sounds largely positive, but I've read about cases in Sweden where police use the new laws to get women evicted from their apartments by threatening to charge landlords with third-party solicitation. But she also talked about some of the totally legal and above-board brothels in Germany, and how trafficking and STDs are rampant there as well, despite (I believe) unions being legal. Yeah, I dunno if you read my big post about it in the other thread but this is such an insanely complicated issue and even though I care about it a lot and have researched it a lot and talked to sex workers a lot, I still have NO idea what the perfect solution looks like.
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Jan 2, 2017 05:52
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Wasting posted:I wouldn't, you're right. But maybe I'm not like you. I have a hard time with moral black and white. It's really demoralizing how much you want to fight me on my posts as opposed to discuss. Oh is that me, is it. Are we back to the strawmanning stop again? Did this train start moving backwards when I went to the dining car? poo poo, I should have just flown.
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Jan 2, 2017 05:52
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Oh is that me, is it. Are we back to the strawmanning stop again? Did this train start moving backwards when I went to the dining car? poo poo, I should have just flown. What do you want?
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Jan 2, 2017 05:53
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Wasting posted:Could you give me your assessment on the industry as opposed to constantly criticizing mine? I've been very open and agreeable. What is your conception? That, as in your case, I have no idea about the life situation of someone working in the sex industry, but contrarily, that I am not comfortable assuming it's fine given the industry's propensity for disproportionately exploiting and abusing women. Like I just can't really come up with a justification that says "well, I'm really horny, and that's worth like a 2% chance of facilitating sexually abusing someone."
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Jan 2, 2017 05:54
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Oh and if anybody feels like we are straying from the topic again, AS A MAN let me say that this is essential education for men. You've got to understand the nature of coercive relationships before you can even aspire to be a human being.
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Jan 2, 2017 05:54
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the white hand posted:Oh and if anybody feels like we are straying from the topic again, AS A MAN let me say that this is essential education for men. You've got to understand the nature of coercive relationships before you can even aspire to be a human being. If you are a man who has visited a strip club, look on these works and despair.
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Jan 2, 2017 05:55
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OwlFancier posted:That, as in your case, I have no idea about the life situation of someone working in the sex industry, but contrarily, that I am not comfortable assuming it's fine given the industry's propensity for disproportionately exploiting and abusing women. But what are you basing that on? Again, Factsareuseless, if you ever feel like moderating this thread, I would love to see it.
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Jan 2, 2017 05:55
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Wasting posted:But what are you basing that on? Basing what on?
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Jan 2, 2017 05:56
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OwlFancier posted:Basing what on? The disproportionate exploitation and abuse of women
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Jan 2, 2017 05:57
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Wasting posted:What do you want? I want you to read what I said about patriarchy socializing you to be unable to learn things and think about that, and whether that's the person you want to be.
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Jan 2, 2017 05:57
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:I want you to read what I said about patriarchy socializing you to be unable to learn things and think about that, and whether that's the person you want to be. I'm really, truly, trying to read everything. But imagine yourself where I am for a second, with 8 or 9 people dogpiling (deserved or not). Please PM me.
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Jan 2, 2017 05:59
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Wasting posted:I'm really, truly, trying to read everything. But imagine yourself where I am for a second, with 8 or 9 people dogpiling (deserved or not). Please PM me. Yeah no experience with dogpiling over here. Come crying to me when you've got multiple qcs threads  -ing your posting crimes, a couple dozen forums stalkers, and an honest-to-god murder conspiracy theory about you.
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Jan 2, 2017 06:01
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Yeah no experience with dogpiling over here. Come crying to me when you've got multiple qcs threads I seriously know nothing about that. I can't believe I was even roped into talking to goons about this poo poo. My offer stands.
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Jan 2, 2017 06:02
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Wasting posted:I seriously know nothing about that. I can't believe I was even roped into talking to goons about this poo poo. My offer stands. If you want to have a pm conversation you pm me. What's the matter, stripper glitter clogging up your keyboard? Do your own work.
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Jan 2, 2017 06:05
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:If you want to have a pm conversation you pm me. What's the matter, stripper glitter clogging up your keyboard? Do your own work. Christmas card glitter is in fact in my keyboard, but strippers usually don't use glitter. Cocoa butter, but not glitter.
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Jan 2, 2017 06:07
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To try to move beyond this slap fight, are there any practices that men could be encouraged to take in order to limit exploitation? I don't believe a blanket condemnation of men who solicit sex workers will lead to outcomes beneficial to anyone. Maybe people should be educated as to how to spot likely signs of human trafficking. Like someone goes to a brothel or strip club in the US and all the women are Russian or South East Asian that should be a clear sign of trafficking. Some types of sex work are more likely to lead to trafficking than others. Is there a way we could protect and encourage those kinds of work?OwlFancier posted:You don't have to go to strip clubs or hire sex workers, you can quite easily do without those things. You probably need a phone in order to get and keep a job, the two are not commensurable. What technological items are considered necessary enough to justify supporting slave labor? What food items? What entertainment products? What services? Let us English fucked around with this message at 06:22 on Jan 2, 2017 |
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Jan 2, 2017 06:07
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