Let's talk about the impacts of patriarchy/misogyny/male privilege on men.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Let's talk about the impacts of patriarchy/misogyny/male privilege on men.

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The Kingfish: Oct 21, 2015

Defenestration posted:

wait, what? Can you say more about this?

Causing pain to others is bad, yes...

It's more complicated than that. Those types of physical pranks can be a type bonding ritual.

# ? Jan 2, 2017 17:10

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# ? May 15, 2024 20:07

GlyphGryph: Jun 23, 2013; Down came the glitches and burned us in ditches and we slept after eating our dead.

Defenestration posted:

yo this is horrifying. I'm sorry this happened to you, and I'm sorry also that you felt responsible. You clearly had way more empathy for your bullies than I would expect.

Eh, it wasn't really so bad. It was a few individuals who generally had lovely lives and aside from that they honestly weren't horrible people so much as desperate and stupid and confused. I got lucky, I don't think I would have known how to deal with common bullying from genuinely more powerful peers that other boys experience - I only experienced that a few times, and it was mostly limited to verbal mocking, and imo that hurt way loving more than getting into a few scraps.

It's like they say, "Sticks and stones can break your bones, but words can make you think you deserve it" - the bullying from the people on the top of the social heap or who have a group of folks enabling them seems way worse and I'm glad I (largely) managed to avoid it. Give me the poo poo I had over public humiliation or backstabbing rumours any day of the week.

Defenestration posted:

Causing pain to others is bad, yes...

Inherently? Always? Why?

It can be bad, obviously, I'm not saying that, but it can also be invigorating. Pain is a powerful experience, and when you know it's superficial and it's no threat to your physical or psychological well-being, it can be quite enjoyable. Don't you love the shock of cold water when diving into a cool lake for the first time? The burn of your muscles after a long day of hard work? The heat of a spicy dish? The concept shouldn't be that unfamiliar, and when it's shared between people it can be an effective bonding experience. The give and take, the playful appearance of threat without substance, the rush of adrenaline and the very temporary nature of the consequences... Pain, especially the risk of pain, is one of the best ways to feel well and truly alive.

GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 17:56 on Jan 2, 2017

# ? Jan 2, 2017 17:16

Nerses IV: May 4, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

I was "friends" with a really loving terrifying bully, back in elementary school. This kid was like, 6 ft tall and far and away the best athlete in the school, and he was meaner than poo poo. My best friend had known him since they were in kindergarten, and he was always like "I don't know why he's so mean now, he used to be a really nice guy"

Well, later on, the kid's dad burned down his house trying to kill the whole family, but only managed to get the dog. Bullying is definitely a symptom.

# ? Jan 2, 2017 17:18

viewtyjoe: Jan 5, 2009

Tiny Brontosaurus posted:

What was your education like, guys?

In my experience, there was no towel-snapping, but then, I didn't participate in any activities that involved the group nudity and showering requisite to make towel snapping a thing.

My K-12 education (the parts I can remember, so mostly 2nd grade and onwards) was interesting. I was what could be considered an extremely disruptive student because even in advanced classes, I got most of the material extremely quickly compared to other students in my classes. I also was charismatic enough and likable enough that very few teachers wanted to actually discipline me for my poor behavior. A constant experience was "viewtyjoe, we know you know the answer, let someone else do it." I was generally just pushed through the advanced classes with acceptable, if not great, grades for the most part. Of course, when my poor behavior basically amounted to "doesn't do homework," it is pretty easy to let slide, especially when I consistently would perform on tests. This set me up poorly for further education, as I was able to get teachers to adjust the expectations on work for me on an individual basis in K-12, while college professors generally aren't so accommodating (though a number would go out of their way to try for me.)

Socially, I was liked enough. I associated mostly with the "smart" kids in elementary, and the "band/music" cliques in high school. I would provide enough academic assistance to others (letting people copy answers when I rarely did do homework, mostly) to fit in. I was a confidante for a lot more people than I think people realized, because I was considered trustworthy and genuinely seemed to enjoy listening (because I hated talking about myself or my feelings, so I would just prompt others to talk.) I wasn't bullied due to my association with peer groups that generally weren't worth targeting, as we were considered to be close to the teachers and bad targets.

Looking back on class compositions, for the most part, gender divides were relatively equal at the high school level, except for one or two classes I took which were outside of the main "academically talented" path. The few advanced classes that weren't on the standard track were very male-heavy, as were the computer programming classes. I believe that females were represented better at the high academic level because the majority of the teachers who taught those sections/classes were female and tended to treat everyone relatively fairly and didn't push/discourage anyone due to gender.

Of course, this is all pretty biased because I grew up in a majority white upper-class town (Boehner literally lived in my school district) that was expanding rapidly as a haven for white upper-class families because the schools were great (through no work of the district's.)

Another thing I've noticed that stands out to me is an issue that I have in general, but comes up most often with my wife. I have an extremely powerful memory, when I want to, and I tend to act from the assumption that everyone else can recall things just as well as I do. Between that and the fact that I don't like talking about myself, I will share small things with others, then when they don't remember (typically while I can remember a host of similar small personal things of theirs) I take affront because how could they not remember this one thing I said that one time once? This likely developed because during my years in high school, my immediate social group could remember that one thing said one time, which has set an expectation that I still have difficulty with in daily life.

# ? Jan 2, 2017 17:19

Nerses IV: May 4, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

viewtyjoe posted:

In my experience, there was no towel-snapping, but then, I didn't participate in any activities that involved the group nudity and showering requisite to make towel snapping a thing.

My K-12 education (the parts I can remember, so mostly 2nd grade and onwards) was interesting. I was what could be considered an extremely disruptive student because even in advanced classes, I got most of the material extremely quickly compared to other students in my classes. I also was charismatic enough and likable enough that very few teachers wanted to actually discipline me for my poor behavior. A constant experience was "viewtyjoe, we know you know the answer, let someone else do it." I was generally just pushed through the advanced classes with acceptable, if not great, grades for the most part. Of course, when my poor behavior basically amounted to "doesn't do homework," it is pretty easy to let slide, especially when I consistently would perform on tests. This set me up poorly for further education, as I was able to get teachers to adjust the expectations on work for me on an individual basis in K-12, while college professors generally aren't so accommodating (though a number would go out of their way to try for me.)

Socially, I was liked enough. I associated mostly with the "smart" kids in elementary, and the "band/music" cliques in high school. I would provide enough academic assistance to others (letting people copy answers when I rarely did do homework, mostly) to fit in. I was a confidante for a lot more people than I think people realized, because I was considered trustworthy and genuinely seemed to enjoy listening (because I hated talking about myself or my feelings, so I would just prompt others to talk.) I wasn't bullied due to my association with peer groups that generally weren't worth targeting, as we were considered to be close to the teachers and bad targets.

Looking back on class compositions, for the most part, gender divides were relatively equal at the high school level, except for one or two classes I took which were outside of the main "academically talented" path. The few advanced classes that weren't on the standard track were very male-heavy, as were the computer programming classes. I believe that females were represented better at the high academic level because the majority of the teachers who taught those sections/classes were female and tended to treat everyone relatively fairly and didn't push/discourage anyone due to gender.

Of course, this is all pretty biased because I grew up in a majority white upper-class town (Boehner literally lived in my school district) that was expanding rapidly as a haven for white upper-class families because the schools were great (through no work of the district's.)

Another thing I've noticed that stands out to me is an issue that I have in general, but comes up most often with my wife. I have an extremely powerful memory, when I want to, and I tend to act from the assumption that everyone else can recall things just as well as I do. Between that and the fact that I don't like talking about myself, I will share small things with others, then when they don't remember (typically while I can remember a host of similar small personal things of theirs) I take affront because how could they not remember this one thing I said that one time once? This likely developed because during my years in high school, my immediate social group could remember that one thing said one time, which has set an expectation that I still have difficulty with in daily life.

Are you sure you're not me? I just always had a big heaping helping of arrogance to go along with it. I was always very certain I was the smartest kid I knew. Since then, I've come to realize that I didn't know very many kids.

# ? Jan 2, 2017 17:25

Rappaport: Oct 2, 2013

GlyphGryph posted:

Inherently? Always? Why?

It can be bad, obviously, I'm not saying that, but it can also be invigorating. Pain is a powerful experience, and when you know it's superficial and it's no threat to your physical or psychological well-being, it can be quite enjoyable. Don't you love the shock of cold water when diving into a cool lake for the first time? The burn of your muscles after a long day of hard work? The heat of a spicy dish? The concept shouldn't be that unfamiliar, and when it's shared between people it can be an effective bonding experience. The give and take, the playful appearance of threat without substance, the rush of adrenaline and the very temporary nature of the consequences... Pain is one of the best ways to feel well and truly alive.

This reminded me of

Primo Levi posted:

I bite deeply into my lips; we know well that to gain a small, extraneous pain serves as a stimulant to mobilize our last reserves of energy. The Kapos also know it: some of them beat us from pure bestiality and violence, but others beat us when we are under a load almost lovingly, accompanying the blows with exhortations, as cart-drivers do with willing horses.

# ? Jan 2, 2017 17:26

Tiny Brontosaurus: Aug 1, 2013; by Lowtax

GlyphGryph posted:

Inherently? Always? Why?

It can be bad, obviously, I'm not saying that, but it can also be invigorating. Pain is a powerful experience, and when you know it's superficial and it's no threat to your physical or psychological well-being, it can be quite enjoyable. Don't you love the shock of cold water when diving into a cool lake for the first time? The burn of your muscles after a long day of hard work? The heat of a spicy dish? The concept shouldn't be that unfamiliar, and when it's shared between people it can be an effective bonding experience. The give and take, the playful appearance of threat without substance, the rush of adrenaline and the very temporary nature of the consequences... Pain, especially the risk of pain, is one of the best ways to feel well and truly alive.

The part you're not seeing is consent. Pain can be good, if you consent to it. Like sex. Don't hurt people without their consent.

# ? Jan 2, 2017 17:57

The Kingfish: Oct 21, 2015

What would it mean to consent to a prank in this context?

# ? Jan 2, 2017 18:07

GlyphGryph: Jun 23, 2013; Down came the glitches and burned us in ditches and we slept after eating our dead.

Tiny Brontosaurus posted:

The part you're not seeing is consent. Pain can be good, if you consent to it. Like sex. Don't hurt people without their consent.

Perhaps instead of trying to explain to me what I'm "not seeing", you could try asking or listening or otherwise trying to understand what I'm really saying and where I'm coming from?

If you want to talk about consent, we can do that. I'm not blind to it. But it's not really relevant to the point I was making - that girls (and increasingly more boys) are being socialized to see pain as something inherently bad and always to be avoided (except maybe outside a sexual context) and that, personally speaking, this is a bad thing for the many boys (and girls!) who would benefit from situations to which it is well suited.

I'm trying to share my concerns here, I don't think I need to be corrected on mistaken beliefs you haven't even bothered to verify are actually true.

GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Jan 2, 2017

# ? Jan 2, 2017 18:09

viewtyjoe: Jan 5, 2009

Nerses IV posted:

Are you sure you're not me? I just always had a big heaping helping of arrogance to go along with it. I was always very certain I was the smartest kid I knew. Since then, I've come to realize that I didn't know very many kids.

Probably? I was the smartest kid I knew for sure that stuck around for any length of time, and ached for company. One of the first memories of romantic feelings I had while growing up was because there was a girl in one of my classes who was at least on my level, if not above it, and just having someone you could relate to who could keep up was a godsend. Shame she moved after the year was over.

Long-term, I learned to relate and adapt and stopped being so insufferable. Failing out of college may have had something to do with that, though. My mother maintains that someone earlier on should have gotten over the fact that they'd feel bad failing a bright kid like me and done it, because failure then wouldn't have been as painful as it was at the point I finally encountered it.

# ? Jan 2, 2017 18:10

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

GlyphGryph posted:

Perhaps instead of trying to explain to me what I'm "not seeing", you could try asking or listening or otherwise trying to understand what I'm really saying?

If you want to talk about consent, we can do that. I'm not blind to it. But it's not really relevant to the point I was making - that girls (and increasingly more boys) are being socialized to see pain as something inherently bad and always to be avoided (except maybe outside a sexual context) and that, personally speaking, this is a bad thing for the many boys (and girls!) who would benefit from situations to which it is well suited.

I can't say I really understand it myself... You don't need to rely on pain to be friends with someone...

Like unless you're a masochist there is nothing positive about pain.

# ? Jan 2, 2017 18:11

The Kingfish: Oct 21, 2015

Primo Levi posted:

quote: