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ImpAtom posted:The difference is that Johns doesn't 'base his work on' stuff, at least with GL. He takes ideas he clearly didn't understand and uses them BECAUSE they were popular. I wouldn't say that about his Flash run but it is true for his GL run, and his GL run shot him way up in popularity. Oh I could easily say it about his Flash run. It's a good run but Johns still just redoes the same tricks, even if it's a bit subtler. MonsterEnvy posted:This is why people think your opinions are bad. Now let's not be too hasty. Boring as Barry has been Bart is still the worst Flash ever. Two Tone Shoes fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Jan 2, 2017 |
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Jan 2, 2017 18:38
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taichara posted:Shockingly, some of us -- hi! -- are capable of not liking Geoff Johns' work (except for his L* material, which was leagues better than the return of Levitz that followed in its wake, sorry not sorry) and think Alan Moore is both disgusting and a hypocrite. Disgusting because of his obsession with including rape in his works, and a hypocrite for bitching about other people using or referencing his works when virtually his entire oh so blessed catalogue is based on the works of others. And this is another part of exactly what I mean. Geoff Johns gets a free pass on all the absurdly ugly things he does including excessive and over the top violence (which does include sexual violence because of course it does) and doesn't get instantly labeled as 'disgusting' while in the same breath you claim that Alan Moore is a hypocrite which only works if you ignore the actual context of his interviews in favor of thinking he's stomping his foot and saying that nobody should ever use other people's characters ever. Alan Moore isn't criticizing them for using existing characters, at least not that I've seen. He's criticizing them for not seeming to have ideas for how to comment or evolve those characters and just wanting to repeat popular things. And considering we've coming off goddamn Civil War 2 and Rebirth is centered around bringing back older versions of characters because the new ones bombed, that doesn't seem like an unfair criticism. (And I say this as someone glad for what Rebirth is doing in theory if not always in execution.) That doesn't mean there are no original ideas in comics but considering Alan Moore apparently doesn't give a poo poo about the Big Two and is only asked about stuff when it is going back to his older works, it's not surprising when he ends up going "Oh, they're doing it again." Two Tone Shoes posted:Oh I could easily say it about his Flash run. It's a good run but Johns still just redoes the same tricks, even if it's a bit subtler. You may be right about that, I haven't gone back to it in some time and am mostly going off nostalgia. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Jan 2, 2017 |
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Jan 2, 2017 19:24
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frodnonnag posted:Hal is pretty poo poo. Give me more stewart or guy gardener. How many separate loving green lantern books are there going now? 3? Guy was at his most interesting when he lead the Red Lanterns, Stewart on the other hand has always been there. With nothing interesting going on for him. Kyle as the White Lantern was an inspired choice but one that it will end soon going by the solicits. So yeah, Hal is still the best of them all.
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Jan 2, 2017 19:35
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:Guy was at his most interesting when he lead the Red Lanterns, Stewart on the other hand has always been there. With nothing interesting going on for him. Haven't you repeatedly bragged about the fact you never bothered with any older stuff? If so don't you think it follows that people are complaining about how lovely Geoff Johns is at writing the other lanterns and that you think they are boring?
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Jan 2, 2017 19:37
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:Guy was at his most interesting when he lead the Red Lanterns, Stewart on the other hand has always been there. With nothing interesting going on for him. Stewart was nice in the dcau, but is now pretty much a piece of blackground scenery. Guy has the most character to him but unfortunately that never really gets used. Hal is at his best when batman is relentlessly making GBS threads on how terrible he is.
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Jan 2, 2017 19:39
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ImpAtom posted:Haven't you repeatedly bragged about the fact you never bothered with any older stuff? If so don't you think it follows that people are complaining about how lovely Geoff Johns is at writing the other lanterns and that you think they are boring? Well I mean, in the 15 years or so that I've read comics regularly. Johns is not the only writer to handle the Lanterns. Soule for example was the one that came up with RL Guy while Tony Bedard and Justin Jordan were the ones to introduce White Lantern Kyle. On the flip side, Venditti's run with Hal has mostly been an utter shitshow that it has only became readable after rebirth. Stewart in comparison has always been uninteresting even under Johns' pen.
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Jan 2, 2017 20:23
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Too bad Geoff Johns became the parody of ultra violence and ultra sex that Alan Moore wrote about in Watchmen. At least Geoff Johns hasn't written about child sex. Oh poo poo he did. They are both the same and all their bodies of work are bad.
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Jan 2, 2017 20:49
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Awesome we're starting 2017 with a Geoff Johns hate parade instead of talking about writers with books that are actually being published right now. Justice League vs Suicide Squad has actually been good so far.
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Jan 2, 2017 21:04
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Bleeding Cool so take a with a grain of saltquote:Last year, DC Comics launched their Rebirth initiative, which saw their superhero line double down to core titles – and double the number of issues published of each. Shorter stories would be fantastic so I hope Rich is right with this one.
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Jan 2, 2017 22:06
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Open Marriage Night posted:Awesome we're starting 2017 with a Geoff Johns hate parade instead of talking about writers with books that are actually being published right now. i wish we had zeroed in on the real problem which is comic books are bad
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Jan 2, 2017 22:08
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Open Marriage Night posted:Justice League vs Suicide Squad has actually been good so far. But I think it's bad. You can't have an opinion that isn't mine.
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Jan 2, 2017 22:46
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ImpAtom posted:Alan Moore isn't criticizing them for using existing characters, at least not that I've seen. He's criticizing them for not seeming to have ideas for how to comment or evolve those characters and just wanting to repeat popular things. And considering we've coming off goddamn Civil War 2 and Rebirth is centered around bringing back older versions of characters because the new ones bombed, that doesn't seem like an unfair criticism. (And I say this as someone glad for what Rebirth is doing in theory if not always in execution.) Thank you. This is also why Dark Knight Returns was so good and DKR 3 is, for the most part, not.
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Jan 3, 2017 00:27
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Rhyno posted:Please clarify this for me. Hey Rhyno sorry for the late clarification, I'm referring to the whole thing in the first place that even if Moore is a ginourmous rear end in a top hat Watchmen is still his thing, I guess I have a disconnect between him being a bearded dick since he hasn't done anything related to DC in forever. Whereas Johns is all about DC stuff, whether it's him making Luthor of Earth-3 a Bond villain, and Superboy Prime a psycho arm tearing murderer, or making Watchmen DC regular canon by having Dr. Manhattan and or Ozymandius being murderous villains. It's just really dumb to me in a non interesting way. I doubt I clarified anything hahaha.
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Jan 3, 2017 01:00
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:Well I mean, in the 15 years or so that I've read comics regularly. Johns is not the only writer to handle the Lanterns. Soule for example was the one that came up with RL Guy Wrong. Jiro posted:Hey Rhyno sorry for the late clarification, I'm referring to the whole thing in the first place that even if Moore is a ginourmous rear end in a top hat Watchmen is still his thing, I guess I have a disconnect between him being a bearded dick since he hasn't done anything related to DC in forever. Whereas Johns is all about DC stuff, whether it's him making Luthor of Earth-3 a Bond villain, and Superboy Prime a psycho arm tearing murderer, or making Watchmen DC regular canon by having Dr. Manhattan and or Ozymandius being murderous villains. It's just really dumb to me in a non interesting way. I doubt I clarified anything hahaha. Okay I get what you meant.
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Jan 3, 2017 01:09
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maybe I'd care more about poor ol' alan moore if he didn't release a comic that was sixteen pages of a woman being raped by a fish monster but he did so gently caress him, and ImpAtom trying to come in here and actively shame people for not caring about him is eye rolling
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Jan 3, 2017 02:24
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Rhyno posted:Wrong. Cool! And I pretty much agree with what everyone else was saying about Johns.
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Jan 3, 2017 02:52
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Blockhouse posted:maybe I'd care more about poor ol' alan moore if he didn't release a comic that was sixteen pages of a woman being raped by a fish monster if I have have to choose between Watchmen and Neonomicon and Sinestro Corps War and Blackest Night and also I have the option of just not reading Neonomicon I think I know what I would pick and don't act like y'all hating wouldn't be all over DC Comics Presents Alan Moore's Justice League vs Watchmen
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Jan 3, 2017 03:15
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Not reading it doesn't make a comic not exist and it doesn't make Moore's obsession with sexual assault any less disgusting also? Yeah I'd probably read Sinestro Corps War over Watchmen. I think that book's fun! I read Watchmen once, appreciated what it was doing, and decided I didn't need to read Watchmen again.
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Jan 3, 2017 03:17
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I like the Alan Moore stuff I've read. He's pretty clearly got a talent for writing comics, but I don't feel particularly compelled to agree with him on everything, and I find it absurd that disagreeing with or not liking him immediately gets you labelled as a company stooge for DC.
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Jan 3, 2017 03:29
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Roth posted:I like the Alan Moore stuff I've read. He's pretty clearly got a talent for writing comics, but I don't feel particularly compelled to agree with him on everything, and I find it absurd that disagreeing with or not liking him immediately gets you labelled as a company stooge for DC. Some people just have to get that defensive, I guess. It probably doesn't hurt that Moore's been built up over the years as being more 'progressive' and 'insightful' and all the other usual descriptors, so if those of us who have no time for a rape-obsessed writer air that opinion his fans feel their intellectual superiority and better taste (... ha) is threatened and they have to lash out.
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Jan 3, 2017 03:54
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Roth posted:I like the Alan Moore stuff I've read. He's pretty clearly got a talent for writing comics, but I don't feel particularly compelled to agree with him on everything, and I find it absurd that disagreeing with or not liking him immediately gets you labelled as a company stooge for DC. the problem ImpAtom has is not that people disagree with Moore's opinion or don't like him. But reveling in his misery. Being happy that he is unhappy. And specifically the situation in which "This persons misery is my joy." I don't like plenty of writers, I have in fact, in this thread, said "gently caress Geoff Johns." But if Geoff Johns were miserable, I would not have joy from that. In fact I think if you feel legitimate joy over someone's suffering no matter who you are, you probably have something wrong with you. It's just a lovely thing to do.
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Jan 3, 2017 03:59
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Only Rhyno really said that, and he was being pretty facetious about it I thought. Like, this post didn't even say anything about that: taichara posted:Shockingly, some of us -- hi! -- are capable of not liking Geoff Johns' work (except for his L* material, which was leagues better than the return of Levitz that followed in its wake, sorry not sorry) and think Alan Moore is both disgusting and a hypocrite. Disgusting because of his obsession with including rape in his works, and a hypocrite for bitching about other people using or referencing his works when virtually his entire oh so blessed catalogue is based on the works of others. But it immediately got jumped on and accused of giving Johns a free pass despite not saying that, and even saying they don't like Geoff Johns at all.
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Jan 3, 2017 04:06
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Roth posted:Only Rhyno really said that, and he was being pretty facetious about it I thought. Yeah that was weird to me to, but you know what they say when the mist gets red.
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Jan 3, 2017 04:09
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I'm pretty sure that if Batman made some Bat-Phantasmittens to punch up on Jon Osterman with, he'd lead with a punch to the balls, and that would be a gloriously rendered two page splash, probably with some grizzled mental remark about 'heh. always wear a cup.'
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Jan 3, 2017 04:11
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Roth posted:Only Rhyno really said that, and he was being pretty facetious about it I thought. I mean, I find the idea that Geoff Johns is only doing it as a way to get back at Moore kind of funny. But there is absolutely no concrete evidence that says that is the case. In actuality Before Watchmen sold very well (before the returns anyways) and DC and Didio have been itching to use the property for a long time. Geoff just happens to be the man of the hour who gets to do it.
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Jan 3, 2017 04:17
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Rhyno posted:I mean, I find the idea that Geoff Johns is only doing it as a way to get back at Moore kind of funny. But there is absolutely no concrete evidence that says that is the case. In actuality Before Watchmen sold very well (before the returns anyways) and DC and Didio have been itching to use the property for a long time. Geoff just happens to be the man of the hour who gets to do it. It occurred to me the other day there's really no reason they couldn't do a Justice League vs. Watchmen movie.
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Jan 3, 2017 04:19
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vseslav.botkin posted:It occurred to me the other day there's really no reason they couldn't do a Justice League vs. Watchmen movie. I'm sure we'll get an animated feature at some point.
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Jan 3, 2017 04:20
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Finally, I'll get to see Doctor Manhattan's penis as depicted by DC's bland animation style.
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Jan 3, 2017 04:21
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:Bleeding Cool so take a with a grain of salt I feel like this is already happening. Superman, Nightwing and Detective all just had 2 or 3-parters.
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Jan 3, 2017 04:21
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Gaz-L posted:I feel like this is already happening. Superman, Nightwing and Detective all just had 2 or 3-parters. I don't see how it's an actual story when books have been having 3 issue arcs for years.
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Jan 3, 2017 04:22
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I'd prefer more comics adopt Blue Beetle's style of story-telling. A bunch of issues that get the immediate story resolved in one or two issues, with an overarching story in the background that builds up to an obvious climax.
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Jan 3, 2017 04:23
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Rhyno posted:I don't see how it's an actual story when books have been having 3 issue arcs for years. But there were things like Forever Evil: Blight, an event tie-in, taking 18 blimmin' issues. Edit: Forever Evil complete with tie-ins (not counting Trinity War, though I should) - 69 issues, eight months. http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forever-evil/4045-57223/issues/ Justice League Vs Suicide Squad with tie-ins - 11 issues, seven weeks. Superman: Doomed, 21 issues http://comicvine.gamespot.com/superman-doomed/4045-57798/issues/ Superman Reborn, 4 issues. Watchmen will probably be larger than JLvSS, but I bet it won't take half a year. It will have nine artists on it, though. Teenage Fansub fucked around with this message at 04:48 on Jan 3, 2017 |
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Jan 3, 2017 04:35
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Roth posted:Finally, I'll get to see Doctor Manhattan's penis as depicted by DC's bland animation style. If I get this scene Nessus posted:I'm pretty sure that if Batman made some Bat-Phantasmittens to punch up on Jon Osterman with, he'd lead with a punch to the balls, and that would be a gloriously rendered two page splash, probably with some grizzled mental remark about 'heh. always wear a cup.' I will be perfectly fine with bland animation
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Jan 3, 2017 06:49
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Blockhouse posted:maybe I'd care more about poor ol' alan moore if he didn't release a comic that was sixteen pages of a woman being raped by a fish monster Yes, that is exactly what I said and not you completely misrepresenting my argument for no reason other than because you want to scream about how much you hate Alan Moore. Roth posted:But it immediately got jumped on and accused of giving Johns a free pass despite not saying that, and even saying they don't like Geoff Johns at all. Because it does? "I don't like Geoff Johns but Alan Moore is a disgusting hypocrite" is not equal criticism. It's basically the lightest possible criticism ("Oh well, I don't like Geoff Johns except for the Geoff Johns books I like") followed by extreme vitriol that seems entirely founded, once again, on "he said bad things about comics!" I also like how any time this comes up people swarm in to go "Well, you just don't want people criticizing Alan Moore" as if that is remotely the issue and not people being goddamn weird about Alan Moore and not including that same level of criticism to the rest of DC's writers and staff. Instead, yes, it comes across entirely as leaping to defending the big corporation against the weird old guy. Edit: Like look at this bullshit: taichara posted:Some people just have to get that defensive, I guess. Yes, that is completely it and not you pulling an argument out of literal thin air. I certainly claimed that Alan Moore is progressive and insightful and absolutely went "boy, you know what is great? Rape in comic books! I think all comic books should have rape!" ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 07:50 on Jan 3, 2017 |
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Jan 3, 2017 06:52
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ImpAtom posted:Yes, that is exactly what I said and not you completely misrepresenting my argument for no reason other than because you want to scream about how much you hate Alan Moore. It's about as accurate as your pulling out the stops and accusing me of saying something I didn't, isn't it. And yet here we are.
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Jan 3, 2017 07:32
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Unironically cannot wait to see Hal Jordan to punch Dr. Manhattan with a giant green dildo and save the universe.
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Jan 3, 2017 07:41
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taichara posted:It's about as accurate as your pulling out the stops and accusing me of saying something I didn't, isn't it. You know what, I'm rephrasing this because I'm tired of dancing around the issue: It's really loving exhausting that any time Alan Moore comes up people tie any form of support for him to "Oh, you just think you're smarter than us" or "he writes about rape and therefore is a disgusting unworthy individual." In the case of the former, no, that criticism has basically never come up on this subforum that I've seen. Nobody has ever, anywhere here, said that Alan Moore is 'too smart' for anyone and if they criticize him they just don't get it. You're either arguing against people on another forum or you're making arguments up. The second one is that every time the subject of Alan Moore comes up his usage of rape in books is used as a bludgeon to avoid having to issue any more criticism or discuss the subject further. Understandably so except when it goes hand-in-hand with dismissing him entirely as a person, which is exactly what happens here. There's plenty of reasons to criticize Alan Moore's writing and not just because of its inclusion of sexual violence. However this poo poo is taking Alan Moore's writing and using it to devalue his opinions on unrelated subject matter. "Alan Moore wrote about rape, ergo his opinions are worthless" is a goddamn reductive opinion. You're not even talking about something Alan Moore did as a person, nor even the actual context and content of his work, but just the fact that it includes rape too often and therefore anything he says deserves to be ignored and he is a disgusting individual. And yes, this stands out in a conversation about comic book writers and the fact that Alan Moore criticism becomes bizarrely heavy-handed only when it comes to his comments about DC Comics. If you're not saying that then why is Geoff Johns merely boring and Alan Moore disgusting?
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Jan 3, 2017 07:47
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Edit: Double post
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Jan 3, 2017 07:47
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ImpAtom posted:Because it does? None of that means they excuse Geoff Johns of anything bad they've written, that's just you putting words into people's mouth. ImpAtom posted:You know what, I'm rephrasing this because I'm tired of dancing around the issue: This however is generally pretty accurate. Stick to talking about what Moore actually said, and not just bringing up things that are only relevant because he also wrote them.
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Jan 3, 2017 07:55
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Roth posted:None of that means they excuse Geoff Johns of anything bad they've written, that's just you putting words into people's mouth. Alright. I will admit that I may have misread that then. If so, my bad, and I am sorry taichara. It genuinely came across to me like that but if I was wrong then I'm sorry.
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Jan 3, 2017 07:56
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