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This is a fairly limited perspective on societal acceptance of boys acting in feminine ways vs girls acting in masculine ways, but man oh man, having kids brings makes you realize how incredibly pervasive this is. My extended family has 4 kids born within a year of each other (my girl and boy, and a niece and nephew) and there's a lot of hand-me-downs for pretty much everything - toys, clothing, you name it. When one of the girls is wearing / using a hand-me-down from the boys, there's generally not much of a problem. We'll probably get people assuming that our girl is a boy because she's wearing all blue, but when we correct people there's usually not a lot of fuss. With boys, it's a completely different story. Playing with dolls, wearing anything pink whatsoever, or anything that hints at feminine behaviour is immediately met with confusion or hostility, depending on how lovely the person in question is. Even with otherwise progressive people, you can see them struggling to get over their biases on this. My sister has been pulled aside and given a lecture by another parent because her 2 year old wanted to wear a skirt one day.
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Jan 3, 2017 13:16
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The next time someone pulls that poo poo just say you're raising him Scottish, how dare you deny him his cultural heritage etc.
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Jan 3, 2017 13:23
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enki42 posted:This is a fairly limited perspective on societal acceptance of boys acting in feminine ways vs girls acting in masculine ways, but man oh man, having kids brings makes you realize how incredibly pervasive this is. My extended family has 4 kids born within a year of each other (my girl and boy, and a niece and nephew) and there's a lot of hand-me-downs for pretty much everything - toys, clothing, you name it. Maybe your progressive friends have been exposed to and internalized the message that girls should be encouraged to explore masculine things, but haven't been as exposed to the message that boys should be encouraged to explore feminine things?
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Jan 3, 2017 13:42
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I'm going through and reading the texts listed in the OP, and it's it's been really enriching. Thanks for all of this information, I've really been enjoying the thread! I work in a university and my department recently had a woman take charge after the guy from before retired. It's been really surprising how people react to her being in charge or for knowing her poo poo. We had a meeting with a guy high up in administration and he "little ladied" her the entire time and directed his questions to a male professor instead of her the entire time. It was pretty unbelievable, and I'm sure it's not the first time she's had to deal with that. I don't know how she kept her cool, (I probably would have stormed out or something dumb) but she did, and the meeting went well despite that guy being a dick. Seeing that stuff in person made me realize that most women have that extra burden on them on top of the same burdens a man would face in the same position in a way classes and textbooks never cemented. I also naively thought a progressive strongholds like universities wouldn't have to be as vigilant about that kind of thing. I've been trying to be a better and more vocal feminist since.
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Jan 3, 2017 17:14
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FactsAreUseless posted:Only in a very literal sense. not just in a very literal sense, as it frames, in a universal way, both the heirarchal relationship between men and women, and between men as well. it refers to a great chain of being that encompasses every aspect of society, from domestic life (fathers and their family) to public life (bosses, employers and landlords as father figures) to politics (politicians, kings and dictators as father figures) all the way to the supposed nature of reality itself (God as a father). the gradual, and ongoing, dissolution of the vertical relationship of dependencies created by patriarchy defines modern capitalist society, imho Calibanibal fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Jan 3, 2017 |
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Jan 3, 2017 17:26
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TZer0 posted:An interesting read I found a while back - a condensed document of a thread on metafilter about emotional labour and male privilege. I just read this and honestly feel pretty bad about it. I have always seen things like Christmas cards to extended family and maintaining relationships with the same to be frivolous. Not seeing the act of doing so to be "women's work," and expecting my wife to do it, but honestly being baffled as to why she bothers in the first place. I try to remember to do things like that when it comes to close family and close friends, though admittedly it's my wife who either reminds me, or on occasion does the preparations for me entirely. It's going to suck retraining myself to give a drat about this sort of thing, but it's a shared burden. Maybe it'll suck less for my wife that way.
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Jan 3, 2017 18:39
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So a question I have been wondering about is "do women managers lowball women hires?" In searching for research I found this article: http://ijr.com/2015/02/257200-hillary-clinton-paid-female-staff-28-percent-less-men/ Which was sort of ironic but not very helpful in addressing the question. In fact, I couldn't find any research at all one way or another. There are a million studies on the gender pay gap, but apparantly very few on how women behave when they have the power to set salaries for other women. Does anyone have any sources on the issue - for or against? Maybe stories from hiring experiences? My business experience and vast wealth of cynicism suggests to me that women are just as ruthless as men when sizing up what someone will accept for their labor. But I could be wrong and I sort of hope that I am.
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Jan 3, 2017 20:19
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Talmonis posted:I just read this and honestly feel pretty bad about it. I have always seen things like Christmas cards to extended family and maintaining relationships with the same to be frivolous. Not seeing the act of doing so to be "women's work," and expecting my wife to do it, but honestly being baffled as to why she bothers in the first place. I try to remember to do things like that when it comes to close family and close friends, though admittedly it's my wife who either reminds me, or on occasion does the preparations for me entirely. It's going to suck retraining myself to give a drat about this sort of thing, but it's a shared burden. Maybe it'll suck less for my wife that way. I have to admit I never really considered the emotional burden that kind of work represented. I never thought it was unimportant...but just sort of that it was a thing my SO did because she wanted to keep up with people rather than as actual work.
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Jan 3, 2017 20:23
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Time did a piece on this recently too, not sure if it was shared here. http://time.com/money/4561314/women-work-home-gender-gap/
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Jan 3, 2017 21:15
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Fart of Darkness posted:I'm going through and reading the texts listed in the OP, and it's it's been really enriching. Thanks for all of this information, I've really been enjoying the thread! they're really not outside of some student stuff The management of academia is arguably the most stuffy old white dude place on the planet Nissin Cup Nudist fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Jan 3, 2017 |
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Jan 3, 2017 21:16
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wateroverfire posted:So a question I have been wondering about is "do women managers lowball women hires?" I mentioned this one before, but here is a better link: https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/unofficial-prognosis/study-shows-gender-bias-in-science-is-real-heres-why-it-matters/ This study had STEM professors across the country rate applicants for a lab manager position based on CVs and recommendations and personal statements. They gave lower ratings to identical applications from women, and lowballed them with a 20% reduced suggested salary. Both male and female professors consistently lowballed by the same amount. Then there was this one: http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/2015/04/women-preferred-21-over-men-stem-faculty-positions It had STEM professors across the country rate applicants for a professorship based on CVs, recommendations, and narrative summaries. But this other study came up with lower ratings against the identical male candidates. (Since it was for a professorship instead of a lab manager, they unfortunately didn't put any questions about salary.)
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Jan 3, 2017 21:29
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Phyzzle posted:I mentioned this one before, but here is a better link: The flip side to that is that, in the workforce, there's a strong push to hire women in STEM industries. I know that was especially true in my area though I think the fact that most jobs here are government contract or plays a real role in that. I'd be curious to see if that has translated into more women being promoted to management or if women in STEM fields typically get stuck/stay at lower level positions. Actually, I was listening to a CSPAN broadcast of a panel on autonomous vehicles from experts in the industry. What struck me was that every single person on the panel was female. That was a first for me.
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Jan 3, 2017 22:10
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:they're really not outside of some student stuff universities as leftist institutions hasn't been a thing for a long time now
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Jan 3, 2017 22:17
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Weren't they all ousted during the McCarthy era?
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Jan 3, 2017 23:07
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enki42 posted:My sister has been pulled aside and given a lecture by another parent because her 2 year old wanted to wear a skirt one day. My coworker's 9-year-old son showed up to the office (our days off schedule mismatches the school holiday schedule) in a skirt the other month and no one made a fuss about it. :]
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Jan 3, 2017 23:24
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Marijuana Nihilist posted:universities as leftist institutions hasn't been a thing for a long time now Well, you could argue there's a small high-profile faction of some students on campus nowadays that would like to see that happen but they're far too busy doing stuff like protesting queer women for not getting trans actors in leading roles during the 90's. So leftists as usual I guess.
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Jan 4, 2017 02:25
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This poster loves police brutality, but only when its against minorities!
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Belteshazzar posted:Sorry to jump on this but it annoys me when people "imagine" rather than doing any research. You may in fact be right and a quick search shows some sources that support this but there is definitely pushback as well. For example the government here in Canada has been funding research on sex work in the context of the active debate here around legalization: http://publications.gc.ca/collections/collection_2015/irsc-cihr/MR12-11-5-2015-eng.pdf Yeah, you're correct, that was my fault. I think it's also important to distinguish between stuff like escort work vs. working off the street, which are two very different types of jobs. An easy way to get an idea for how much economics plays a factor in people becoming sex workers would be to see if sex workers are relatively evenly distributed in terms of economic background. I wasn't able to find any statistics on this, though (and I read somewhere that it's hard to get statistics due to the illegal nature of the business in most of the country).
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Jan 4, 2017 02:34
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How to effectively talk to your member of Congress by Emily Ellsworth Call the Halls: Contacting Your Representative the Smart Way by Emily Ellsworth I have added these guides to the op for USA goons, in light of what we'll be facing for the next four years. Stay diligent and strong about contacting your elected officials, even if you live in a blue area!
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Jan 4, 2017 02:39
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If people in this thread want a little bit of good and positive news, have an article about Zambia. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-38490513 Short version is that women in Zambia are allowed to take one day off, per month, essentially to deal with issues related to their period. The required notice is very short (The article isn't specific but it looks like it's basically call up on the morning) and there aren't really any requirements except that a woman give said notice. That said the loose language of the law seems to have created some confusion about what is an acceptable reason and what isn't, but despite that (and the opposition from some parts who worry about 'productivity') it looks like a drat good idea to me. I've seen periods leave women bedridden and I'm drat glad I don't have them; it seems pretty reasonable to me to let women take a day off for it, and for my part I'm fully supportive of a law that allows women to judge for themselves when they might want to call such a day even if it does leave some unpredictability for employers to deal with.
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Jan 4, 2017 04:34
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BedBuglet posted:
In my experience when a women gets to a high engineer level they almost always get an additional outreach responsibility (with no additional pay) so that megacorp1 can demonstrate its diversity. Meanwhile megacorp1 continues to hire 95% male engineers, and while Sally the exec eng is at a smallish conference repping the company at a panel session, Ben the exec eng is making board room presentations internally. While exposure of girls to this kind representation is good this fake fronting ends up disguising what is still a huge inequality.
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Jan 4, 2017 05:09
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Uncle Jam posted:While exposure of girls to this kind representation is good this fake fronting ends up disguising what is still a huge inequality. You wouldn't believe how important "role models" are to young people. If you see someone like yourself in a job it automatically becomes easier to imagine yourself doing that. When I was young I always read the credits on video games I played and was delighted every time I found a female coder (which is what I wanted to do and ended up doing.) It was good to know it was not impossible.
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Jan 4, 2017 15:07
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On video games, it's pretty stereotypical in a "this comes up literally every time anyone mentions empowered women in video games" way, but when I was little I had 2 friends who absolutely refused to play the original Metroid because Samus is a woman. A friend's older brother told me the password to start the game as Samus without her suit (so you can actually see she's a woman) and that was it. Refused to even try to play it. Your loss scrubs, that series is the best  Also just as a shout-out to women in that industry, Yoko Shimomura is one of the best composers out there. Street Fighter II, Mario RPG, Final Fantasy XV, and almost every non-Final Fantasy RPG that Square put out during the PS1/PS2 era. She rules.
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Jan 4, 2017 15:30
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Uncle Jam posted:In my experience when a women gets to a high engineer level they almost always get an additional outreach responsibility (with no additional pay) so that megacorp1 can demonstrate its diversity. Meanwhile megacorp1 continues to hire 95% male engineers, and while Sally the exec eng is at a smallish conference repping the company at a panel session, Ben the exec eng is making board room presentations internally. While exposure of girls to this kind representation is good this fake fronting ends up disguising what is still a huge inequality. I'm not sure what the alternative to this is though if you want to attract more women into the field. All your coders could do programming full-time and then they'd trot out some other woman who is purely a PR professional to do the outreach, which feels fake.
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Jan 4, 2017 15:44
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Speaking of representation, I've noticed a lot of marketing towards young girls for Star Wars lately, and it makes me squee a little every time. And as figher pilots, commandos and Jedi too, not a helpless, badly written "queen" in sight. Jyn Erso being the lead in Rogue One was huge IMO.
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Jan 4, 2017 15:50
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Of course that didn't happen naturally, it had to be forced: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/star-wars-force-awakens-rey-toys_us_568bef03e4b0b958f65cf2c7 quote:Three Hasbro toys in particular riled people up. One was the “Force Awakens” Monopoly game, available for $25 on Amazon, which doesn’t include Rey, but does feature Kylo Ren, Finn, Luke Skywalker (who appears for all of 30 seconds in the movie) and Darth Vader (who appears for even less time than Luke).
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Jan 4, 2017 16:00
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Talmonis posted:Speaking of representation, I've noticed a lot of marketing towards young girls for Star Wars lately, and it makes me squee a little every time. And as figher pilots, commandos and Jedi too, not a helpless, badly written "queen" in sight. Jyn Erso being the lead in Rogue One was huge IMO. My husband watched Star Wars with our daughter (nearly 4) for the first time recently and its notable how she really didn't care about any of the characters except Princess Leia. I've noticed this with her and most TV/Movies - she prefers movies and TV with a lot of female characters. If there's scenes with male characters only she generally zones out and keeps asking where her favourite female characters are. I think this is one reason why "Princess" movies are so popular. They are the one genre of kid movie that reliably have a female character in a prominent role the entire way through.
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Jan 4, 2017 16:00
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BarbarianElephant posted:My husband watched Star Wars with our daughter (nearly 4) for the first time recently and its notable how she really didn't care about any of the characters except Princess Leia. I've noticed this with her and most TV/Movies - she prefers movies and TV with a lot of female characters. If there's scenes with male characters only she generally zones out and keeps asking where her favourite female characters are. I think this is one reason why "Princess" movies are so popular. They are the one genre of kid movie that reliably have a female character in a prominent role the entire way through. When it comes to Princesses, you really can't get much better than Leia at least. I always thought she was a badass.
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Jan 4, 2017 16:05
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Talmonis posted:Speaking of representation, I've noticed a lot of marketing towards young girls for Star Wars lately, and it makes me squee a little every time. And as figher pilots, commandos and Jedi too, not a helpless, badly written "queen" in sight. Jyn Erso being the lead in Rogue One was huge IMO. Yeah all the women around in Rogue One was great and actually helped show the Empire as more patriarchal given that they were overwhelmingly men. It's also been a problem in the old EU, most of the good characters were men, while the Empire of all places had more women. Games like X-wing, even when made by FFG a company with a great record of inclusion still has very few female rebel pilots.
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Jan 4, 2017 16:08
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Talmonis posted:When it comes to Princesses, you really can't get much better than Leia at least. I always thought she was a badass. Most modern princess stuff has "badass" princesses. I think modern girls actually prefer it to the passive princesses of the past because they haven't grown up idealizing passive characters. Frozen's Anna and Elsa, and Moana from the recent movie, are all very "badass."
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Jan 4, 2017 16:41
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My mom was an elementary school teacher and she once went to a panel at a conference that essentially told all the teachers to only choose books with male protagonists. The reasoning was that "boys can't relate to female characters" but "girls can relate to male characters just fine", so only choose male character driven books. If I were a teacher, I would do the opposite and find a bunch of good book with female protagonists because if "boys can't relate to female characters", then clearly they haven't had enough exposure to female protagonists. Rather than try to fix the problem of boys not being able to relate to girls, it was suggested to just keep pandering to the boys interests.
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Jan 4, 2017 16:53
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Mulan is the best princess and imho my favorite Disney movie.  (Frozen is in second.)
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Jan 4, 2017 17:05
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Nessa posted:My mom was an elementary school teacher and she once went to a panel at a conference that essentially told all the teachers to only choose books with male protagonists. The reasoning was that "boys can't relate to female characters" but "girls can relate to male characters just fine", so only choose male character driven books. Yeah, if boys can relate to robots or aliens that have tails and can fly, then they can relate to women characters. It's such a lame excuse.
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Jan 4, 2017 17:07
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Eimi posted:Mulan is the best princess and imho my favorite Disney movie. Mulan is awesome, yes. There were also plenty of other active princesses. Ariel made a bad decision, but it was her decision nonetheless. Belle chose to take her father's place in the castle. And Jasmine wanted choice into who she would marry.
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Jan 4, 2017 17:10
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Older Disney princess movies actually suffer from the passivity of the heroines, in terms of really limiting the plot. Snow White and Cinderella have lovely animation, but the heroines do *nothing.* My daughter only seemed interested in the Wicked Queen from Snow White and I think this is because she actually has agency in the movie, even though she is the bad guy! One of the clever things about "Frozen" is that Elsa is a good guy but also has all the fun of the "Wicked Queen" archetype in terms of things like building a palace out of ice and covering the kingdom in frost.
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Jan 4, 2017 17:17
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BarbarianElephant posted:Older Disney princess movies actually suffer from the passivity of the heroines, in terms of really limiting the plot. Snow White and Cinderella have lovely animation, but the heroines do *nothing.* My daughter only seemed interested in the Wicked Queen from Snow White and I think this is because she actually has agency in the movie, even though she is the bad guy! People are quick to look down on the older Disney princesses, and while it's true that they are more passive than the modern ones, they still have good qualities. Ariel, Belle and Jasmine were always my favourites growing up, but I admired Snow White for her kindness and Cinderella was clearly toughing it out in an abusive family. Sure, it required magical intervention to get her out of that situation, but that's kind of a central factor in the original fairytale. Snow White thought the dwarves house was being lived in by orphaned children and was determined to take care of them, even after fleeing for her life though a terrifying forest. She represents the feminine ideals of the time, but I don't think things like kindness and cleanliness are bad things. Fun fact: The Fairy Godmother was based on a layout artists' wife who devoted a lot of her time to charities and community work. Sleeping Beauty wasn't really about her, but it did heavily feature the 3 fairies and Maleficent, the greatest Disney villain of all time. Elsa was originally supposed to be a villain, but the film was rewritten once the writers heard "Let It Go" and imagined how lonely Elsa must have been.
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Jan 4, 2017 18:07
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BarbarianElephant posted:You wouldn't believe how important "role models" are to young people. If you see someone like yourself in a job it automatically becomes easier to imagine yourself doing that. When I was young I always read the credits on video games I played and was delighted every time I found a female coder (which is what I wanted to do and ended up doing.) It was good to know it was not impossible. Yeah I get that but out of the 100s of engineers and scientists I've met involved in autonomous vehicles over the years exactly 3 were women. If they push women to panel sessions at fluff conferences nobody high up sees them presenting results in internal meetings. It's kind of devious in a way.
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Jan 4, 2017 18:18
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Phyzzle posted:I mentioned this one before, but here is a better link: Those two studies seem hard to reconcile. Perhaps sexism is still alive and well, but works for women in the latter case and against them in the former case? ie: Maybe working with a woman is perceived as better, while having a man work for you in your lab is perceived as better?
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Jan 4, 2017 18:44
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Poor Merida gets forgotten even in the feminism thread. 
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Jan 4, 2017 18:46
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Eimi posted:Yeah all the women around in Rogue One was great and actually helped show the Empire as more patriarchal given that they were overwhelmingly men. It's also been a problem in the old EU, most of the good characters were men, while the Empire of all places had more women. Games like X-wing, even when made by FFG a company with a great record of inclusion still has very few female rebel pilots. Woah woah woah! Not cool! Female villians needs better representation too you know. Girls need to see that it's okay to join the dark side if that's what they want. 
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Jan 4, 2017 19:04
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BedBuglet posted:Woah woah woah! Not cool! Female villians needs better representation too you know. Girls need to learn that it's okay to join the dark side if that's what they want. Phasma better loving get a ton of screentime in Ep8 because they hyped the poo poo out of her and she's in TFA for all of like a minute. I can't even remember if you ever see her with her helmet off.
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Jan 4, 2017 19:06
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