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Teenage Fansub posted:But there were things like Forever Evil: Blight, an event tie-in, taking 18 blimmin' issues. Every aspect of Blight sucked so incredibly hard.
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Jan 3, 2017 08:02
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Does it have to do with the Batman Beyond villain?
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Jan 3, 2017 08:07
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Roth posted:Does it have to do with the Batman Beyond villain? No, and that's probably the most damning thing I can say about it without going on a paragraph long diatribe
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Jan 3, 2017 08:38
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Blight could've been a decent story if it just stayed within the Phantom Stranger series. I actually really liked what they were doing with in that book at first. Unfortunately in the end it just became a big clusterfuck and derailed PS into a complete mess by the end, which sucks cause that would've been a great limited series if it weren't for the constant crossovers.
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Jan 3, 2017 09:28
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Teenage Fansub posted:
God I forgot about Forever Evil, what poo poo. And it's art was poo poo as well. David Finch worst artist or absolute worst artist?
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Jan 3, 2017 10:25
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Moore's a treasure, simple as.
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Jan 3, 2017 10:41
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I like him much better on Batman, but Jordie Bellaire certainly helps. edit: Regarding Finch.
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Jan 3, 2017 10:46
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Jiro posted:David Finch worst artist or absolute worst artist?
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Jan 3, 2017 10:47
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Jiro posted:God I forgot about Forever Evil, what poo poo. And it's art was poo poo as well. I will forgive Forever Evil because it gave us Ultraman laser-huffing Kryptonite and proclaiming "I'M THE STRONGEST AGAIN".
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Jan 3, 2017 11:06
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ImpAtom posted:
When Geoff Johns meets Alan Moore's rape quota, come talk to me again. When Geoff Johns is put on the same unimpeachable pedestal (spoiler: he hasn't been) as Alan Moore, come talk to me again. Why not just admit you're desperate to put words in my mouth because you can't deal with the idea that I don't worship Moore like you do? Oh right, because you're one of those people who just can't cope that notion. It's like you just can't comprehend that one of these things is worse than the other. But then here you are wordvomiting at me in mad defense of the works of a man who will dedicate a solid dozen pages to rape or assault of women, when, say, over in the Gundam IBO thread you harp on on your assumed behaviour of a fictional space mafioso as one of the most disgusting characters you've ever seen in a Gundam series, so hey I guess the hypocrisy is strong with you too!
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Jan 3, 2017 12:22
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Yeah, basically what taichara said but I have to add: ImpAtom you realize this is super loving weird, right? How personally you're taking other people's opinions on Alan Moore? The fact that you've been doing this for several pages non-stop and have looped around to just wanting to insult people for no reason? It's a bad look.
Blockhouse fucked around with this message at 12:41 on Jan 3, 2017 |
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Jan 3, 2017 12:39
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Why would you read more than two or three issues of a comic that "sucked so incredibly hard"? Congrats, you are why events keep coming out with a million issues!
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Jan 3, 2017 14:00
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I have a bad habit of sticking through to the end of the first arc.
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Jan 3, 2017 14:08
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I let other people suffer for me and read the Storytimes on /co/
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Jan 3, 2017 14:36
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taichara posted:When Geoff Johns meets Alan Moore's rape quota, come talk to me again. Well, for one, you keep assuming that I think Alan Moore is unimpeachable or that all his words are flawless and without criticism which I have not said once. You are the one who continues to push that particular viewpoint which I have not expressed. You have assumed my opinion on this multiple times and you haven't bothered to actually read what I said. Because you want to know my answer? "Alan Moore has done some incredible books and also some terrible ones. I personally feel that Watchmen is an incredibly strong book both due to it's strong ploting and its incredible artwork. However the rest of Alan Moore's stories veer from occasionally great (his GL work) to something I found personally incredibly gross despite it being held up as one of his best (LoEG) to something I feel is strong in theory but absolutely dragged down by its worst elements (Killing Joke) to stuff I just plain don't like.) At no point have I said he's unimpeachable or beyond criticism. What I have said is that the constant going back to disregarding his thoughts and opinions because he wrote about rape is pretty lovely. You're taking the content of a story he wrote and using the presence of it, not the context, to attack something completely unrelated about the writer. In comparison you accuse me of hypocrisy because... I said a character in a story is badly written? Did I said at any point that Mari Okada is a disgusting human being and her opinions should be disregarded because she wrote Naze Turbine? Hell, when have I said anything more critical of the writers than "I don't think they have the confidence to stick the landing." Blockhouse posted:Yeah, basically what taichara said but I have to add: ImpAtom you realize this is super loving weird, right? How personally you're taking other people's opinions on Alan Moore? The fact that you've been doing this for several pages non-stop and have looped around to just wanting to insult people for no reason? It's a bad look. And again, where have I said that I'm defending Alan Moore for any reason other than "it's pretty weird to see people pile on a weird old man because he expressed criticism of a big company." I am getting annoyed because it's really goddamn tiresome to make a point and have it met with "But he wrote about rape too much! Ergo you're defending Rape Man for his love of Rape!" ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 16:31 on Jan 3, 2017 |
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Jan 3, 2017 16:15
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Somewhere a label on a ketchup bottle is broadcasting this argument right now.
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Jan 3, 2017 17:42
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AFoolAndHisMoney posted:Blight could've been a decent story if it just stayed within the Phantom Stranger series. I actually really liked what they were doing with in that book at first. Unfortunately in the end it just became a big clusterfuck and derailed PS into a complete mess by the end, which sucks cause that would've been a great limited series if it weren't for the constant crossovers. I still hate that they tried to give the Phantom Stranger an actual identity. Like I can't really see any bigger examples of them missing the point of a character.
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Jan 3, 2017 19:34
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MonsterEnvy posted:I still hate that they tried to give the Phantom Stranger an actual identity. Like I can't really see any bigger examples of them missing the point of a character. What if we make the Phantom Stranger really familiar and acquainted with folks?
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Jan 3, 2017 20:00
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Other writers not named Alan Moore who have worked sexual assault into their comic book stories (at the big two) on at least one occasion, usually repeatedly: 1. Geoff Johns 2. Greg Rucka 3. Grant Morrison 4. Brian Michael Bendis 5. Chris Claremont 6. Garth Ennis 7. Warren Ellis 8. Marv Wolfman 9. Steve Englehart 10. Dan Slott 11. Brad Meltzer 12. Judd Winick 13. Mark Millar 14. Gail Simone 15. Brian Azzarello 16. Ed Brubaker 17. Tony Bedard 18. Dan Jurgens 19. Allan Heinberg 20. James Robinson 21. Mike Grell 22. Chris Yost 23. Christos N. Gage 24. Mark Waid 25. Keith Giffen 26. Jim Shooter 27. David Michelinie 28. Devin Grayson 29. Kevin Smith 30. Peter David I came up with this list more or less off of the top of my head in about five minutes, so I'm sure I'm missing a bunch. This also isn't counting the ABSOLUTELY RAMPANT use from the 1970s onward of establishing scene where street criminals drag a woman into an alley to undress and "have fun" with her before getting pummeled by [Batman/Spider-Man/Daredevil/Black Canary/Power Pack]. This is also setting aside the creators who have been accused of sexual assault in real life. People are free to find this repellant, offensive, not suited for superhero comics, or anything else they feel like, and it often is, but using it as a cudgel to single out and dismiss Alan Moore seems kind of weird.
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Jan 3, 2017 20:50
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I want to read this comic where Power Pack rescue a lady from gang rape.
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Jan 3, 2017 20:52
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Singling out Alan Moore for his use of rape is somewhat hypocritical and thus pointless, especially when you can single him out for writing Lost Girls.
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Jan 3, 2017 21:17
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Look the point here is the tired trope of "woman is raped because it's the worst thing that could happen to her aside from death" and "woman is raped and the men in her life are most affected" and "man saves woman from rape" and so on have been used for decades. It's especially been used in fantasy stories of any sort, because it's the easiest way to make a woman a victim without killing her and to make the man seem noble for protecting her virginity. Only in recent years are people seriously going "well this is really bad writing and severely insulting to women." I think Alan Moore gets singled out just because he's best known for a few major works that have impacted comic culture significantly and they pretty much all involve some type of sexual violence in them. Frank Miller is similar.
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Jan 3, 2017 21:34
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MonsterEnvy posted:I still hate that they tried to give the Phantom Stranger an actual identity. Like I can't really see any bigger examples of them missing the point of a character. The Judas Iscariot angle was pretty good and PS himself was the standout from the whole Trinity of Sin concept. Pity that as many, many stories in the N52, it was never allowed to develop properly before being changed around by the current new trend going on Editorial that week.
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Jan 3, 2017 21:55
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If you know the Phantom Stranger was Judas Iscariot he stops being a loving stranger. Like, I actually really liked that book and thought it was surprisingly well-done, but it still kinda missed a big chunk of what I consider to be the point of the character.
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Jan 3, 2017 22:04
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lotus circle posted:Look the point here is the tired trope of "woman is raped because it's the worst thing that could happen to her aside from death" and "woman is raped and the men in her life are most affected" and "man saves woman from rape" and so on have been used for decades. It's especially been used in fantasy stories of any sort, because it's the easiest way to make a woman a victim without killing her and to make the man seem noble for protecting her virginity. Well, the thing is that I don't even disagree with that. In fact I completely agree that it's frequently unnecessary, usually thoughtless, and rarely executed with anything remotely resembling the sensitivity the subject should be. It's really gross how often comics resort to rape or thinly coded rape (see: mind control, possession, whatever you like) or just extremely sexualized violence without a second thought. if people want to make criticisms about that then I'm completely on board with it. But when you're saying that a writer is a disgusting beast who deserves to be ignored and his opinions are meaningless not because of something he did, nor an opinion he expressed, but because the content of his work, then it's pretty extreme and it's weird that he is being held to that standard when (just off the top of my head) Brian Azzarello and Robert Kirkman are not. Brian Azzarello is in fact holder of the rare prize of taking one of Moore's stories and doubling the creep factor. And that isn't to say those authors never get criticism but at very least it isn't remotely the same level as Moore where people seem in a giant rush to point out he's a disgusting bad man who loves rape. Moore has writing problems and those deserve ever bit of criticism they get. If you can't separate writing criticism from attacking the author then it gets uncomfortable. DivineCoffeeBinge posted:If you know the Phantom Stranger was Judas Iscariot he stops being a loving stranger. It's kind of the problem with any 'secret' identity. Someone, somewhere, is utterly convince it's more interesting if you know the secret but it almost never is. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 22:11 on Jan 3, 2017 |
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Jan 3, 2017 22:07
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None of those writers are as well known or influential to the medium as Alan Moore, simply because hardly anybody in the world is. So criticism of Alan Moore is inevitably proportional to his status as an industry legend. Even worse he's always the major name mentioned when people talk about comics being serious literature for grown ups, so while yes Geoff Johns writes a lot of horseshit about arms getting ripped off, nobody is writing articles about it in Time Magazine like they have done for Watchmen.
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Jan 3, 2017 22:23
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Watchmen is good though
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Jan 3, 2017 22:53
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So is Lost Girls
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Jan 3, 2017 23:00
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purple death ray posted:None of those writers are as well known or influential to the medium as Alan Moore, simply because hardly anybody in the world is. So criticism of Alan Moore is inevitably proportional to his status as an industry legend. Okay. That doesn't really change things though. If your problem with Alan Moore is that he's popular and therefore deserves to be taken down harder, it's worth remember that when you're discussing 'popular' you're also discussing Chief Creative Officer At Dc Comics Geoff Johns and Creator Of Incredibly Popular Television Series The Walking Dead Robert Kirkman. They are not obscure nobodies. The whole "you're just a Moore worshiper who thinks you're SMARTER than us" thing feels like backlash against the fact that, yeah, Watchmen is recognized as a strong example of the medium. Yet even if you don't personally like Watchmen it seems genuinely a bit unreasonable to suddenly go completely in reverse and claim it is without worth, not in the least because even if you take Moore's writing out entirely you're still left with Dave Gibbons artwork which itself is absolutely something that stands on its own. The fact that people praise it doesn't suddenly justify pushing back twice as hard. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Jan 3, 2017 |
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Jan 3, 2017 23:03
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purple death ray posted:None of those writers are as well known or influential to the medium as Alan Moore, simply because hardly anybody in the world is. So criticism of Alan Moore is inevitably proportional to his status as an industry legend. Plus if we're expanding past "biff bam pow, superheroes aren't just for kids anymore" stories, you're bringing in Kirkman and Crumb and Sim and Los Bros and Chris Ware and Bechdel and even more people who have used sexual assault as a narrative device in their stories. quote:Even worse he's always the major name mentioned when people talk about comics being serious literature for grown ups, so while yes Geoff Johns writes a lot of horseshit about arms getting ripped off, nobody is writing articles about it in Time Magazine like they have done for Watchmen. Which is not to say that it's acceptable the way all of these works (I'd even listen to arguments for any) use sexual assault in their narratives, but again. You can generally have at least a few posts discussing the relative merits of Y the Last Man or Sopranos without someone going "you mean the rape rape rape rape rape rape rape rape rape fest made by the rape happy rape lover?"
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Jan 3, 2017 23:11
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Lost Girls has a whole lot of mind melting Melinda Gebbie art.
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Jan 3, 2017 23:13
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ImpAtom posted:Okay. That doesn't really change things though. If your problem with Alan Moore is that he's popular and therefore deserves to be taken down harder, I'm gonna stop you right there because a) popular and influential aren't synonymous, and b) that's not my argument either way. I like Alan Moore, I think Watchmen is great, and I wish DC had not hosed things over so badly that we'll never get to read him write those characters ever again. He's not above criticism, I don't think any creative person is. I was just maybe trying to clarify the reasons why people single him out. He's the biggest name given to people who are maybe just getting into comics, or looking for more mature works in the medium, which means that people notice certain themes in his work over a forty year career, more so than Kirkman, who is famous for a single story that was written in the last decade, or Geoff Johns, who nobody outside of comic nerds has heard of anyway.
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Jan 3, 2017 23:16
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purple death ray posted:I'm gonna stop you right there because a) popular and influential aren't synonymous, and b) that's not my argument either way. I like Alan Moore, I think Watchmen is great, and I wish DC had not hosed things over so badly that we'll never get to read him write those characters ever again. He's not above criticism, I don't think any creative person is. I think I get what you're saying, I think we may just be using different definitions of influential. When I say Johns, for example, I think he's had a pretty significant impact on DC Comics (and in turn on their movies and so-on). He isn't as long-term influential as Moore in terms of being respected but I would say he is a major figure in the current era of comic books for good or ill. To me I think tha'ts plenty influential even if it doesn't carry the same sense of respect Moore gets. (and if I'm misunderstanding you still then I straight-up apologize.)
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Jan 3, 2017 23:28
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Johns has a lot of sway in the industry right now but I don't really think he's influencing the next generation of creators or fundamentally changing the public perception of superheroes the way people like Moore and Frank Miller did back in the 80s. I guess time will tell ultimately but I guess there are different levels of being influential.
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Jan 3, 2017 23:58
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Who cares. Superman's Multiversity themed next issues has a preview http://www.comicsbeat.com/exclusive-preview-the-multiversity-makes-its-return-in-superman-14/?sf49284953=1
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Jan 4, 2017 00:00
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A Gnarlacious Bro posted:Lost Girls has a whole lot of mind melting Melinda Gebbie art. Man I'm sure happy that the craft in a comic about Dorothy from the Wizard of Oz loving her dad is "mind-melting", that's what I want from a comic. That and scenes where Wendy from Peter Pan gets in an orgy with the Lost Boys while a pedophile watches.
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Jan 4, 2017 00:08
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Oh boy I'm starting to like this conversation! Let's take a gander at Alan Moore, a gentleman  and  a scholar  So just to be clear, this is all three of Moore's arguably most popular and influential stories, each of which features a prominent sequence of women as victims of sexual violence. To be even more clear, that's about 75% of the major female characters who even appear in these stories. This is just in the stories I remember reading. I wonder what happens in those stories I haven't read? Which is why this Edge & Christian posted:Other writers not named Alan Moore who have worked sexual assault into their comic book stories (at the big two) on at least one occasion, usually repeatedly:
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Jan 4, 2017 00:12
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Everyone is an overrated creep. Let's move on.
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Jan 4, 2017 00:29
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And poo poo who brought up Azzarello?? Lemme tell y'all what I think of that motherf
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Jan 4, 2017 00:34
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purple death ray posted:Johns has a lot of sway in the industry right now but I don't really think he's influencing the next generation of creators or fundamentally changing the public perception of superheroes the way people like Moore and Frank Miller did back in the 80s. I guess time will tell ultimately but I guess there are different levels of being influential. If anything, I think Bendis' decompressed storytelling in Ultimate Spider-Man is the big influence of the 00s. For better or worse.
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Jan 4, 2017 00:36
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