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No MCU film has the distinctness of Burton's Batmen, Reeve's Supermen, or even Blade for that matter. They're like episodes of the same TV show that just happens to have a really high budget. I'm not even saying that's bad, I'm just saying that beyond the increased cultural penetration of previously more obscure characters, things aren't really all that much better than before.
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Jan 4, 2017 07:09
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Well I'd argue that Burton's Batman stuff and MCU is kinda apples and oranges to use as a comparison. It'd be like saying 'you know why Batman vs Superman sucked? It wasn't like Guardians of the Galaxy at all!" Just being superhero movies doesn't make them comparable. As for the general distinctness, I guess that's just agree to disagree. The 'core' stuff, yea, they kinda hit similar tones and styles because the whole point is they're different elements of the same team, but if you compare stuff like Doctor Strange and Captain America you have two very distinct films in both style and characters.
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Jan 4, 2017 07:14
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That they're apples and oranges is my point. They don't have to ape Burton, but I would prefer they be their own individual experiences to the extent that they feel meaningfully different experiences aside from "this one is in space and this one is in Asia". If you felt like that was already the case, I'm genuinely happy you can enjoy it where I can't, but it all just sorta blends together for me, enough that I can't really get excited for any of them anymore.
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Jan 4, 2017 07:20
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I'd argue that Burton's Batman isn't distinct because it's just a Tim Burton movie he put Batman and the Joker in. There's a style there, yeah, but its identical to his at-this-point tired aesthetic.
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Jan 4, 2017 07:22
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Blockhouse posted:I'd argue that Burton's Batman isn't distinct because it's just a Tim Burton movie he put Batman and the Joker in. There's a style there, yeah, but its identical to his at-this-point tired aesthetic. That's a perfectly valid point I'll concede, but in that case just replace Burton's Batman with Rami's Spider-Man. Even so, the fact that there's any style at all is significant, while Marvel just has the whole thing on an assembly line. I really doubt any individual MCU movie would be any different no matter who was in the director's seat, since Marvel would just replace them like Wright if they strayed too far from the established brand. WickedHate fucked around with this message at 07:28 on Jan 4, 2017 |
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Jan 4, 2017 07:26
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WickedHate posted:That's a perfectly valid point I'll concede, but in that case just replace Burton's Batman with Rami's Spider-Man. I can't agree with that either, because if you say "generic superhero movie style" than Spider-Man is exactly what I think of. Aside from the occasional glimpses of Raimi's actual style (Norman becoming the Green Goblin in 1, the operating room scene in 2) there's absolutely nothing that sticks out to me about this movies stylistically beyond bad effects.
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Jan 4, 2017 07:29
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WickedHate posted:That's a perfectly valid point I'll concede, but in that case just replace Burton's Batman with Rami's Spider-Man. Even so, the fact that there's any style at all is significant, while Marvel just has the whole thing on an assembly line. I really doubt any individual MCU movie would be any different no matter who was in the director's seat, since Marvel would just replace them like Wright if they strayed too far from the established brand. but what do you actually mean by this? Like, I'm sorry if this seems like I'm just harping on your posts but whenever I see stuff like this it's always in this context. People just talk about 'the brand' and how formulaic it all is but they don't actually explain how. How is the first Captain America movie so much like Doctor Strange that you can honestly say the entire MCU is one big factory churning the same thing out with different coats of paint?
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Jan 4, 2017 07:33
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Well, for one thing, it was shot way more interestingly than any MCU movie to date. Aside from Strange's special effects, but that's not really the same thing. But critically, Rami didn't go on to do a dozen more superhero movies with different characters and make them all the exact same way. Even the terrible Amazing duology stand on their own better. Tatum Girlparts posted:but what do you actually mean by this? Like, I'm sorry if this seems like I'm just harping on your posts but whenever I see stuff like this it's always in this context. People just talk about 'the brand' and how formulaic it all is but they don't actually explain how. I feel like when you get into the quantum details of "style" it becomes harder for me to articulate or explain how the action scenes and plot beats all feel the same without getting into a dumb kinda "bad guy does bad thing, hero beats bad guy" plot structure all of fiction follows, and if that seems like a cop out I'll just drop it because it's really a struggle for me to vocalize these sort of intangible concepts. The best I can do to explain what I'm saying is that if I watched Rami's Spider-Man and Winter Soldier back to back they'd feel different in a way that Winter Soldier followed by Doctor Strange wouldn't. And that's not a very satisfying answer, and that's my own fault. WickedHate fucked around with this message at 07:39 on Jan 4, 2017 |
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Jan 4, 2017 07:36
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"The First Avenger" has visual throwbacks to old war serials and is full of stylistic throwbacks in the same way the Rocketeer is. You can't tell me that movie doesn't have a unique sense of style.
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Jan 4, 2017 07:37
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I can honestly say I don't have any vested interest in stating these opinions, I don't want to feel this way about Marvel movies and I don't gain anything by advancing the idea that they're too similar. If Marvel surprised me and really shook things up I'd be ecstatic.
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Jan 4, 2017 07:42
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Tatum Girlparts posted:I'd argue that there's too many Marvel villains that are just big evil reflections of heroes is the real issue there True enough. It sucks that Abomination was so lame once he stopped being the guy from Lie to Me and became a big CG thing. That actor rules.
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Jan 4, 2017 07:46
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WickedHate is literally just going "but je ne sais quoi" at this point, why are you guys still trying to argue this
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Jan 4, 2017 07:48
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Winter Soldier, Age of Ultron and Civil War are very drab, boring looking movies that do seem to be Marvel's baseline when stuff isn't shooting off into outer space or other dimensions. It's where Spider-Man looks set too. I can't get over them staging their big climactic Civil War hero fight in a washed out overcast airport field of grey concrete. I hope Taika's Thor is a crazy eyeful whenever the hell that trailer hits. Kiwi pride 
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Jan 4, 2017 07:49
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Teenage Fansub posted:Winter Soldier, Age of Ultron and Civil War are very drab, boring looking movies that do seem to be Marvel's baseline when stuff isn't shooting off into outer space or other dimensions. It's where Spider-Man looks set too. Yeah, there's that. And everything people pointed out about Whedon's TV directing of the first Avengers applies to pretty much every MCU movie for me, except maybe Guardians.
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Jan 4, 2017 07:52
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WickedHate posted:No MCU film has the distinctness of Burton's Batmen, Reeve's Supermen, or even Blade for that matter. They're like episodes of the same TV show that just happens to have a really high budget. Isn't that the endgame for a series that's aimed toward a shared universe? I like that about the Marvel stuff. Winter Soldier isn't like Ant-Man at all, but they're similar enough that I can buy them existing in the same world. Burton's Batman would look weird beyond belief next to Donner's Superman. I'll grant that DC's universe is more...I dunno, segmented than Marvel's? It's already weird to imagine Gotham and Metropolis coexisting. However, Blade would look weird next to Raimi's Spider-Man and those were produced more closely to each other. They were meant to be something totally new. The Marvel stuff isn't. I dunno if that's a bad thing though.
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Jan 4, 2017 07:59
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And yet, Aaron's God of Thunder is significantly different than any of the books running at the same time as it. If comics can do it, the movies should be able to as well.
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Jan 4, 2017 08:07
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I have to admit that, at least to me, the 'shared universe' isn't very appealing. I feel like it dilutes films and so far nothing the shared universe has done has really justified it to me. The closest is maybe Civil War and even then the strongest bits that stood out to me were Black Panther and Spider-Man, two characters introduced in Civil War.
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Jan 4, 2017 08:11
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Have you guys heard of the aneid illiad and the Odyssey These movies are totally ripping them off
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Jan 4, 2017 10:25
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ImpAtom posted:I have to admit that, at least to me, the 'shared universe' isn't very appealing. I feel like it dilutes films and so far nothing the shared universe has done has really justified it to me. The closest is maybe Civil War and even then the strongest bits that stood out to me were Black Panther and Spider-Man, two characters introduced in Civil War. The fact that an Avengers movie even exists justifies the shared universe for me. The execution could use some improvement, but there are opportunities to see things in a shared cinematic universe that were previously confined to the comics, and occasional cartoon crossovers.
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Jan 4, 2017 10:30
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If it would remove all references to 'the event' from the Netflix shows, I would vote to wipe Avengers 1 from existence. How the shows would still exist, I dunno. Whatever.
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Jan 4, 2017 10:37
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Blockhouse posted:I can't agree with that either, because if you say "generic superhero movie style" than Spider-Man is exactly what I think of. Aside from the occasional glimpses of Raimi's actual style (Norman becoming the Green Goblin in 1, the operating room scene in 2) there's absolutely nothing that sticks out to me about this movies stylistically beyond bad effects. The weird zoom-ins seem pretty Raimi to me. 
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Jan 4, 2017 10:59
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Blockhouse posted:I can't agree with that either, because if you say "generic superhero movie style" than Spider-Man is exactly what I think of. Aside from the occasional glimpses of Raimi's actual style (Norman becoming the Green Goblin in 1, the operating room scene in 2) there's absolutely nothing that sticks out to me about this movies stylistically beyond bad effects. Well in general his Spider-Man movies are set in a slightly campy and cartoonish, high-energy world that's only been approached afterwards by... Deadpool? Just consider how Simmons's JJJ would completely break the MCU if he was transplanted to it.
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Jan 4, 2017 12:54
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Jameson in the Raimi movies is exactly the kind of character people like to claim the MCU is already infested with.
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Jan 4, 2017 13:04
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Good, memorable ones?
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Jan 4, 2017 13:07
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Well I meant more that they like to treat them as if everyone in the MCU was a cartoonish quip machine. It's not my opinion, I'm just saying that because of how people seem to dilineate them from films by other studios. My point is Jameson would fit in like a glove. The sense of humor Raimi and Simmons gave him is a good match for characters like Stark and whatnot.
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Jan 4, 2017 13:14
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Like Sam Rockwell and Ben Kingsley.
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Jan 4, 2017 13:18
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TFRazorsaw posted:Jameson in the Raimi movies is exactly the kind of character people like to claim the MCU is already infested with. Not at all. This is Simmons's JJJ, in case you forgot. The same character with same performance by Simmons (and the same direction) would be more cartoonish and over-the-top than anything in the MCU. He'd out-talk Rocket Raccoon and Tony Stark. He out-talks everyone anyway, but in MCU characters would have lines asking, bewildered, if he's for real. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 13:26 on Jan 4, 2017 |
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Jan 4, 2017 13:20
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That's because that's who J. Jonah Jameson is. The characters who surround him get overwhelmed by him too. He's a personification of journalistic and editorial force. The man is a word spitting whirlwind by concept. Raimi and Simmons didn't create that, they just realized it on screen. He'd do what you said not because he doesn't fit but because they characterized Jameson the way they're supposed to.
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Jan 4, 2017 13:27
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TFRazorsaw posted:That's because that's who J. Jonah Jameson is. You're ignoring all the differences in writing, performance, and direction. There's a difference between dominating the scene and breaking it. He holds everyone in awe, but he's a natural part of Raimi's over-the-top comic book world where villains yell "We'll meet again, Spider-Man!". No one ever questions him. He would never be as dominant in a Marvel movie because the direction is different. This can be seen in the Spider-Man Homecoming trailer, where a brief clip of Tony Stark filling JJJ's role as a curmudgeonly adult authority, and the differences are rather obvious (private and domesticated vs public and theatrical). New Jameson will probably be a surprise cameo since he's redundant in the story.
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Jan 4, 2017 13:57
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Blockhouse posted:I'd argue that Burton's Batman isn't distinct because it's just a Tim Burton movie he put Batman and the Joker in. There's a style there, yeah, but its identical to his at-this-point tired aesthetic. Batman Returns, sure. The 89 Batman, not a black and white swirl in sight. Also these movies came out 25 years ago, when the Burton aesthetic had been used in maybe three films. And applying that aesthetic to a big-budget summer superhero blockbuster (a sequel to what was at the time the most popular movie of the last five years) was completely unheard of. It might be tired at this point but Returns was a big part of establishing the Burton 'aesthetic' in the first place.
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Jan 4, 2017 13:57
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WickedHate posted:The best I can do to explain what I'm saying is that if I watched Rami's Spider-Man and Winter Soldier back to back they'd feel different in a way that Winter Soldier followed by Doctor Strange wouldn't. 
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Jan 4, 2017 14:04
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purple death ray posted:Batman Returns, sure. The 89 Batman, not a black and white swirl in sight. Also these movies came out 25 years ago, when the Burton aesthetic had been used in maybe three films. And applying that aesthetic to a big-budget summer superhero blockbuster (a sequel to what was at the time the most popular movie of the last five years) was completely unheard of. It might be tired at this point but Returns was a big part of establishing the Burton 'aesthetic' in the first place. It would have been pretty weird if Burton hadn't made Batman until, say, 1991, but he still did Edward Scissorhands, so Johnny Depp became his go-to actor and he cast him as Batman instead of Keaton.
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Jan 4, 2017 14:22
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MCU films so far are all about handsome white men who have the kind of problems you have if you're a handsome white man. I'm looking forward to the promised shaking up of that aspect of formula, anyway.
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Jan 4, 2017 16:46
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PYF white people problems. Mine is when Nazis discover an infinity stone and use it to make weapons. fml.
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Jan 4, 2017 17:00
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Aphrodite posted:PYF white people problems. "When Knockoff Nazis get an uncommonly strong level of control and use it to institute their desires" is a p. relevant problem in this day in age, though less so for white people.
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Jan 4, 2017 17:02
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Rand Brittain posted:MCU films so far are all about handsome white men who have the kind of problems you have if you're a handsome white man. I'm looking forward to the promised shaking up of that aspect of formula, anyway. The first half of Captain America had some more universal problems, imo.
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Jan 4, 2017 17:09
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As a white man in America, who is also working in an off-brand Brazillian health drink bottling plant in the favelas, I relate strongly to Dr. Bruce Banner's fear of coming into work every day and inability to perform sexually.
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Jan 4, 2017 17:15
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When a neo-Nazi becomes president of my country. FML
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Jan 4, 2017 17:16
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Is the MCU making me angry at the dad from Modern Family a clever subversion of its traditional white male problem storylines or is it merely an auger of changing norms?
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Jan 4, 2017 17:22
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There are 4 dads in Modern Family, you'll have to be more specific.
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Jan 4, 2017 17:47
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