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None of the math to calculate steps was even close to the numbers I needed. It's about 15thou off right now. Gonna spend the weekend drinking and tweaking it and possibly rebuilding the lathe to eliminate any possible backlash stuff. The sherline profile wouldn't even make the motors run, and the auto config in mach 3 didn't get the steps close either. Getting the CNC up and running on my mill and lathe is my next big project, so I will hopefully have it going soon so my work projects aren't delayed any further.
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# ? Jun 7, 2024 00:23 |
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That's lame :/ My setup has been "good enough" so far for basic processes and first-pass squaring/facing but once it isn't cutting it any more, when I'm making dies and parts that need significant precision, I'll probably have to spend a day or two tearing everything down and rebuilding/tramming. For taig mill owners in particular, but Sherline/etc guys too, what are signs that you're hitting the machine's rigidity limits as opposed to the tooling limits? What rules of thumb do you use? I don't run my end mills anywhere near the supposed maximums feed/speed calculators spit out at me, and I play with feedrate while programs are running until it "sounds" "good", but I don't have the ear to know what a Problem sounds like beyond Cranky Tool Sounds that are visibly giving bad chatterey results. I've heard people complain about the Z column getting knocked out of true from people pushing machines too hard without the column's position being reinforced in some way, like a tack weld or added set screws, and I don't think I'd notice something like that until the part was done but visibly out of square.
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Are you using a calculator for your feeds and speeds that also shows the required power at the motor for a particular operation? If you are, and you should be, finding your machine limits is pretty easy to do without the ear/eye for it that the pro's have - run some tests using progressively faster feeds/speeds and higher depth/width of cut, all while making note of the calculated required power. Compare surface finish and holy-poo poo-how-did-nothing-break feelings with the required-power notes so you know what your machine can do on a particular material.
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Ambrose Burnside posted:That's lame :/ My setup has been "good enough" so far for basic processes and first-pass squaring/facing but once it isn't cutting it any more, when I'm making dies and parts that need significant precision, I'll probably have to spend a day or two tearing everything down and rebuilding/tramming. I remember a few threads about this on the mailing list. IIRC, the general consensus is that those people have either not tightened down the nuts hard enough or have mounted motors that are oversized for the mill, like those big 480oz/in motors or something, or were milling something really high up on the z-axis that gave it a very high moment arm.
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Wandering Orange posted:Are you using a calculator for your feeds and speeds that also shows the required power at the motor for a particular operation? If you are, and you should be, finding your machine limits is pretty easy to do without the ear/eye for it that the pro's have - run some tests using progressively faster feeds/speeds and higher depth/width of cut, all while making note of the calculated required power. Compare surface finish and holy-poo poo-how-did-nothing-break feelings with the required-power notes so you know what your machine can do on a particular material. Yeah, I am. On paper my motor can run anything 1/4" dia and under as hard as the tool can take, and I can actually manage the spindle speeds to come close to that. I'm starting to work on steel, where some genuinely-distressing noises and a lot of vibration start cropping up even on very modest cuts, so I'm being a lot more cautious than with wood or aluminum. But yeah I just gotta do some experimenting with the safety glasses on and take notes until something breaks or the finish gets too ugly I guess
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Or invest in a copy of the Machinist's handbook and study the sections on milling feeds/speeds.
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Are you increasing the feed to reduce the chatter ? Sometimes I get horrible noises because I'm not feeding fast enough for the speed.
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Ambrose Burnside posted:Yeah, I am. On paper my motor can run anything 1/4" dia and under as hard as the tool can take, and I can actually manage the spindle speeds to come close to that. I'm starting to work on steel, where some genuinely-distressing noises and a lot of vibration start cropping up even on very modest cuts, so I'm being a lot more cautious than with wood or aluminum. But yeah I just gotta do some experimenting with the safety glasses on and take notes until something breaks or the finish gets too ugly I guess I ran into something very very similar on my Tormach 1100 cutting steel parts with a 4 flute 1/2" endmill. If I did a 150/150 thou axial/radial depth of cut at 3k rpm and 8 IPM, the machine shrieked at me like you wouldn't believe. I was getting tool pullout on tools that were torqued to >50 ft*lbs. The trick was to increase the depth of cut, reduce the width of cut, and increase the feed rates a shitton. The machine is now super happy chugging along at a 400thou depth of cut, 30 thou radial cut, 3500 RPM, and 75 IPM feedrate. Happy machine sounds, and chips flying off the part like you see in those HSM demo videos on youtube. For steel cutting in any machine less rigid than a Haas, you want to push the tool to the limit, not the machine. Run the tool right at the limit of it's allowable SFM. For a 1/4" tool, that's something like 10k rpm and 100+ IPM if you're doing a .125" DOC and 10 thou radial. Run the cutter as fast as possible within the SFM limits on whatever coating you're using, take a very light radial cut, and run the machine as fast as possible.
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Brekelefuw posted:Are you increasing the feed to reduce the chatter ? Sometimes I get horrible noises because I'm not feeding fast enough for the speed. this hosed me up the first few times I encountered it, but yeah, if you think you're going reasonably slow, try speeding up instead. Alternately, your tool could be dull and you're just rubbing instead of cutting. That's why I like the lathe better, my lathe bits are easy to make sharp as hell but as soon as I dull my end mills i gotta get a new one :-(
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rotor posted:this hosed me up the first few times I encountered it, but yeah, if you think you're going reasonably slow, try speeding up instead. Alternately, your tool could be dull and you're just rubbing instead of cutting. That's why I like the lathe better, my lathe bits are easy to make sharp as hell but as soon as I dull my end mills i gotta get a new one :-( indexable carbide insert mills ![]()
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CrazyLittle posted:indexable carbide insert mills i want one but everyone says you can't use carbide on the taig because it doesn't turn fast enough/have enough hp? i dunno.
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also I can't find a 3/8" shank indexable end mill
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rotor posted:i want one but everyone says you can't use carbide on the taig because it doesn't turn fast enough/have enough hp? i dunno. Grizzly G0704?
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Methylethylaldehyde posted:I ran into something very very similar on my Tormach 1100 cutting steel parts with a 4 flute 1/2" endmill. If I did a 150/150 thou axial/radial depth of cut at 3k rpm and 8 IPM, the machine shrieked at me like you wouldn't believe. I was getting tool pullout on tools that were torqued to >50 ft*lbs. The trick was to increase the depth of cut, reduce the width of cut, and increase the feed rates a shitton. The machine is now super happy chugging along at a 400thou depth of cut, 30 thou radial cut, 3500 RPM, and 75 IPM feedrate. Happy machine sounds, and chips flying off the part like you see in those HSM demo videos on youtube. Thiiiiiis was the ticket, thank you. Going from full-size knee mills at school to to the lil guy at home kinda screws me up in terms of expectations and approaches. Definitely also hitting that counterintuitive "instinctively reduce feed to soothe machine noises, also reducing FPT enough that it just wants to burnish instead of cut" thing I've been specifically cautioned against ![]() Ambrose Burnside fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Jan 5, 2017 |
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CrazyLittle posted:Grizzly G0704? ![]()
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did A Simple Project around christmas along the lines of stuff i'm more accustomed to. a nerd gift for a DBZ fan ![]()
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rotor posted:i want one but everyone says you can't use carbide on the taig because it doesn't turn fast enough/have enough hp? i dunno. You can use carbide tooling regardless of what you're using it on. The little Taig will beat itself to pieces trying to use a modern coated carbide endmill as hard as they're designed to be run, but the carbide doesn't care if you're only running 5% of the design HP through it. There is a reason why ChinaBest brazed carbide turning tools are so popular, even little babby 1/4" ones, they work great compared to HSS. Insert tooling is a different story, depending on the insert geometry it can require a certain kind of cut, and you end up with a certain minimum HP and torque in order to make it play nice. You can baby the cut some, but below a certain point, you end up cutting more material with a properly sized endmill or fly cutter than you could with a 4 insert shell mill. A modern coated carbide insert has the cutting sweet spot right at about 1 HP per tooth, where lifespan, material removal rate, and surface finish are all maximized. It's why you see videos of those insane 40 insert shell mills on the really big VMCs, where they just bury it .200" deep in the part and cut an 8" wide swathe through the steel casting.
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yeah turning tools I got covered, its replacing end mills with indexable carbide that I want to try out but I can't even find a 3/8" shank indexable carbide end mill to try, and also everyone tells me it will end in tears.
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Sure enough, the smallest indexable shank I can find is 1/2".
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rotor posted:yeah turning tools I got covered, its replacing end mills with indexable carbide that I want to try out but I can't even find a 3/8" shank indexable carbide end mill to try, and also everyone tells me it will end in tears. You have turning tools, just turn down the shaft of a cheapo depot chinesium insert holder, and see what happens. It'll work, just not well, and certainly not for how much they cost.
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Methylethylaldehyde posted:You have turning tools, just turn down the shaft of a cheapo depot chinesium insert holder, and see what happens. It'll work, just not well, and certainly not for how much they cost. so here we are back at the beginning where everyone tells me not to use carbide on the taig
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rotor posted:also I can't find a 3/8" shank indexable end mill Closest thing I can find is http://www.banggood.com/BAP300RC10-10x120-1T-Lathe-Tool-Holder-with-APMT1135PDER-Insert-and-Wrench-p-1069858.html?rmmds=category and a 10mm collet to hold it in the er-16 spindle. http://www.banggood.com/ER16-1-10mm-Spring-Collet-CNC-Carving-Machine-Milling-Chuck-Collet-p-999191.html?rmmds=search I bought these to try on the Taig but havent got around to try them out yet.
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Methylethylaldehyde posted:You can use carbide tooling regardless of what you're using it on. The little Taig will beat itself to pieces trying to use a modern coated carbide endmill as hard as they're designed to be run, but the carbide doesn't care if you're only running 5% of the design HP through it. There is a reason why ChinaBest brazed carbide turning tools are so popular, even little babby 1/4" ones, they work great compared to HSS. This. I'd honestly say that I'd rather use hss lathe tools and carbide endmills than the other way around. They aren't a cure-all, but a nice carbide endmill is vastly, vastly more rigid than hss, and makes cuts that would be a nightmare legitimately easy even if you can't use the additional speed. I don't have much excursive experience with bench top mills, but I'm betting that tooling is a much more limiting factor than you'd expect. As another poster mentioned: large depth of cut, low step over, and feed the hell out of it. You'll be horsepower limited at some point, but carbide will let you get closer to that point, especially with small endmills you'd have to baby otherwise. Disadvantages are cost and liability for chipping if you abuse it (so again: high doc, low stepover, high feed.)
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evilhat posted:Closest thing I can find is http://www.banggood.com/BAP300RC10-10x120-1T-Lathe-Tool-Holder-with-APMT1135PDER-Insert-and-Wrench-p-1069858.html?rmmds=category Karia posted:This. I'd honestly say that I'd rather use hss lathe tools and carbide endmills than the other way around. They aren't a cure-all, but a nice carbide endmill is vastly, vastly more rigid than hss, and makes cuts that would be a nightmare legitimately easy even if you can't use the additional speed. I don't have much excursive experience with bench top mills, but I'm betting that tooling is a much more limiting factor than you'd expect. As another poster mentioned: large depth of cut, low step over, and feed the hell out of it. You'll be horsepower limited at some point, but carbide will let you get closer to that point, especially with small endmills you'd have to baby otherwise. Disadvantages are cost and liability for chipping if you abuse it (so again: high doc, low stepover, high feed.) If you can afford the extra few bucks per unit, getting carbide is a huge improvement over HSS in almost every application. The only thing I can think of that it's worse at is chipping out if you oops it onto the shop floor or have the mill play for you the song of it's people and chatter bad enough to fret the edges or chip a corner. It's basically twice as good at everything compared to HSS, but costs twice as much. Insert tooling is a whole other beast, and is generally for high production runs on big VMCs, because a 3" solid carbide cutter would be ruinously expensive, brazed ones were legit awful, and you can do poo poo on an insert that would be a nightmare to grind on a regular helical endmill. Now that Fusion 360 and HSM Works are a thing you can get for the low low cost of free, everyone should use the high speed machining tool paths, since they let you trade the rigidity you don't have anyways for the high speeds and feeds. The 5-7% cutter engagement means you only ever have one flute in the cut, which lets what limited horsepower you have do more, and the cutting forces are a lot lower too. I had a steel part that I was machining like a chump in 5 depth passes taking a beefy cut, like you would on a bridgeport, and once I learned the HSM recipe my mill likes, I was able to do the whole thing in one depth pass by going zoom zoom zoom on the feeds and speeds. rotor posted:so here we are back at the beginning where everyone tells me not to use carbide on the taig Regular carbide endmills? Go nuts, they're amazing. A 1/4" stub length in a taig would work sweet, since you can spin it literally as fast as you can and the tool will never really overspeed. And they're like $12 a pop. Insert tooling is $5-50/insert, plus the holder and arbor, which will run you $100+. Price the stuff out and see what you get. I mean, the insert holder will work, but how much are you willing to pay to play around with insert tooling? Methylethylaldehyde fucked around with this message at 07:08 on Jan 6, 2017 |
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Methylethylaldehyde posted:Insert tooling is $5-50/insert, plus the holder and arbor, which will run you $100+. Price the stuff out and see what you get. Meh, I paid $32 for mine? It's a SHARS R8 SHANK 1-1/2" 90° INDEXABLE END MILL w/ 3 TPG32 INSERT and it cuts real nice. http://www.ebay.com/itm/350259243381
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There's a reason it's hard to find small indexable end mills. Inserts are never as sharp so you get higher side loading. They will never be perfectly aligned so you get worse finish in side milling. They can't helix around the tool so you get a big solid edge slamming into the cut all at once, which is terrible for vibration. They're great in large diameter tools where solid carbide would be really expensive and in big machines that can handle a big enough cut to keep several inserts engaged. If you're having issues with machine rigidity a smaller diameter tool will give less side loading for the same cut as a larger tool. A 1/4" carbide end mill will be similar in price to a 3/8" or 1/2" HSS tool, but will almost always give better performance.
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Methylethylaldehyde posted:If you can afford the extra few bucks per unit, getting carbide is a huge improvement over HSS in almost every application. The only thing I can think of that it's worse at is chipping out if you oops it onto the shop floor or have the mill play for you the song of it's people and chatter bad enough to fret the edges or chip a corner. It's basically twice as good at everything compared to HSS, but costs twice as much. Insert tooling is a whole other beast, and is generally for high production runs on big VMCs, because a 3" solid carbide cutter would be ruinously expensive, brazed ones were legit awful, and you can do poo poo on an insert that would be a nightmare to grind on a regular helical endmill. Chatter, dropping it, and recutting chips are the big no-nos with carbide. HSS will complain about recutting chips, carbide will chip and explode. HSM helps with chip evac, but an air blast or light mist coolant is pretty much king. I do disagree about having one flute in the cut. One of the major advantages of the increased DoC is actually that you get multiple flutes engaged, which smooths out the cutting forces. That reduces resonance, prevents shock loading, improves surface finish, etc. oxbrain posted:There's a reason it's hard to find small indexable end mills. Inserts are never as sharp so you get higher side loading. They will never be perfectly aligned so you get worse finish in side milling. They can't helix around the tool so you get a big solid edge slamming into the cut all at once, which is terrible for vibration. They're great in large diameter tools where solid carbide would be really expensive and in big machines that can handle a big enough cut to keep several inserts engaged. The geometry also just doesn't work out. You have to sacrifice material to fit the inserts, and smaller endmills are rigidity limited. It gets even worse as you add positive rake, so surface finish suffers. Additionally, you can't fit as many flutes: up until about 5/8" you're generally stuck with one insert. Material removal is lower until it's rigid enough that you can properly abuse the inserts, or unless you're paying for the really fancy inserts and holders, neither of which is the case in the home shop. Bigger stuff, like the 1.5" CrazyLittle mentioned? Could be nice if you need a tool that big for facing or something. Smaller indexable endmills? Not worth it.
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Karia posted:I do disagree about having one flute in the cut. One of the major advantages of the increased DoC is actually that you get multiple flutes engaged, which smooths out the cutting forces. That reduces resonance, prevents shock loading, improves surface finish, etc. If you only have 10% radial cutter engagement, you physically can't get 2 teeth in the cut unless the tool has like 6 or more cutting surfaces. Increasing depth of cut will get the upper part of the helix still engaged as the new tooth starts cutting, which would even out the cutting forces some. The increased DOC buys you a few things, you have less moment arm on the cutter, so the deeper you go, the less the depth costs you, and you're using more of the tool in the cut. If the tool is only good for 12 cutting hours, it's way better to use the entire length of it if you can, vs. trashing the bottom .200" and throwing out the other .600" that's more or less brand new. HSM as a process does a number of cool things (per some jerkwad on the internet, but I've seen the same things on my mill too) 1) Reduced cutting time per edge per revolution allows it to cool down more. 2) Chip thinning allows to increase chipload (advancement per tooth per revolution) 3) Increased depth of cut combined with shallow radial positively affects deflection. Tool bends less as it is more rigid towards the tool holder. 4) Higher cutting speed actually reduces cutting forces as heat generated in the cutting zone makes it easier to shear off a layer of metal. Yet because the time of contact is so small, most of the heat is carried away with the chip. 5) Higher RPM also allows to get rid of hot chips faster thus further reducing heat transferred to the tool. 6) Higher feedrate actually reduces relative cutting speed. 7) At high axial engagements more than one flute is in contact with the workpiece at different points along the axis of the tool. This too helps combat vibrations and chatter. 8) You are using more of the tool than just its tip, so technically you can do more work with one tool before it gets dull. 9) lastly it looks cool as hell and is very impressive. Whenever we know visitors or bosses are coming we try to make sure some HSM is going on even if application does not merit that
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Methylethylaldehyde posted:If you only have 10% radial cutter engagement, you physically can't get 2 teeth in the cut unless the tool has like 6 or more cutting surfaces. Increasing depth of cut will get the upper part of the helix still engaged as the new tooth starts cutting, which would even out the cutting forces some. Yes, that's what I'm talking about, sorry if I was unclear. No, you're not going to get the tips of multiple flutes engaged at one time. Use higher helix tools to increase that effect. Though you can use way more flutes with HSM than normal. Good summary overall. Misses talking about chip evacuation, in my opinion one of the more important benefits. Thing to remember about point 6: it's only relevant if you're conventional milling. If you've got ball screws and are climb milling it works the other way. Either way the cutting speed change is pretty insignificant, usually just a couple percent at most.
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Karia posted:Yes, that's what I'm talking about, sorry if I was unclear. No, you're not going to get the tips of multiple flutes engaged at one time. Use higher helix tools to increase that effect. Though you can use way more flutes with HSM than normal. Yeah, the chip evacuation is another big plus, the first time I ran balls out HSM code on my Tormach, my buddies almost poo poo themselves over how far it was throwing the chips and the unending stream of them sorta spiraling around the part as it did an exterior profiling operation. Large pockets are trickier, but an air blast was enough to minimize the recutting. This actually goes over the chip thining and radial engagement parts of HSM, and has some well done machine porn comparing conventional 'grandpa with his bridgeport' milling vs. modern Trochoidal toolpaths.
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Methylethylaldehyde posted:on my Tormach, oh ho ho ho such a fancypants machine you got there buddy. see this here is the HOBBY cnc thread, the ROTOR way. 1/8" shank or bust! (j/k... esp considering I'm running a g0704) rotor posted:so here we are back at the beginning where everyone tells me not to use carbide on the taig Stick an indexable turning tool in a 3/8" shank flycutter.
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CrazyLittle posted:1/8" shank or bust! AND. The word you were looking for there was AND.
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Methylethylaldehyde posted:Yeah, the chip evacuation is another big plus, the first time I ran balls out HSM code on my Tormach, my buddies almost poo poo themselves over how far it was throwing the chips and the unending stream of them sorta spiraling around the part as it did an exterior profiling operation. Large pockets are trickier, but an air blast was enough to minimize the recutting. Pocketing is the hardest, definitely. Guessing you're already doing it, but spiraling in to make the biggest starting hole possible really helps (or even better, if you've got a tool changer: predrill.) The new dedicated HSM endmills have gouges up the flutes like a roughing endmill, but offset so you still get flat surface. If you've got a diamond wheel of the right shape probably wouldn't be too hard to grind some into a carbide endmill, that would also help with deep pockets, though you'd sacrifice some tool life. Airblast is pretty much always king, though, you're right.
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CrazyLittle posted:oh ho ho ho such a fancypants machine you got there buddy. see this here is the HOBBY cnc thread, the ROTOR way. 1/8" shank or bust! I had a crappy Shapeoko 2 that I tried to get working well enough to do literally anything useful at all, and after 2 months of arguing with it, gave up in disgust and got a big boy machine that can do anything I need it to for the forseeable future. The little 770 and 440 are apparently really slick little machines for doing smaller stuff like circuit boards, small robot parts, and anything you can think of that fits on the reduced build area. Not the cheapest on the planet, but super nice. Karia posted:Pocketing is the hardest, definitely. Guessing you're already doing it, but spiraling in to make the biggest starting hole possible really helps (or even better, if you've got a tool changer: predrill.) The new dedicated HSM endmills have gouges up the flutes like a roughing endmill, but offset so you still get flat surface. If you've got a diamond wheel of the right shape probably wouldn't be too hard to grind some into a carbide endmill, that would also help with deep pockets, though you'd sacrifice some tool life. Airblast is pretty much always king, though, you're right. Yeah, the trick I learned for making through hole pockets in stuff was to spot drill, it predrill it 1/2", then spiral down the hole full depth and start hogging it all out. I need to make a little air blast manifold thing so I can run a programmable air blast at the part to blow stuff out every 2-3 seconds. Methylethylaldehyde fucked around with this message at 16:08 on Jan 10, 2017 |
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Just starting to research hobby CNC machines. Before I get too deep in the weeds, any recommendations for a machine/setup that emphasizes precision over speed/size? I think I'll mainly use it for machining small plastic (acetal) gears and mechanisms, or to make master molds for resin casting. Machining aluminum would be swell, but from what I understand, that's outside the capacity of cheaper, small hobby CNCs. I wouldn't mind a larger CNC if the recommendation happened to be larger, but it's not a priority since I have a pretty well stocked woodshop already and haven't really felt the need for a wood CNC.
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polyfractal posted:Just starting to research hobby CNC machines. Before I get too deep in the weeds, any recommendations for a machine/setup that emphasizes precision over speed/size? I think I'll mainly use it for machining small plastic (acetal) gears and mechanisms, or to make master molds for resin casting. The OtherMill might be up to the task for the small plastic gears. If you ever do consider a wood CNC, check out the Shaper Origin, it won't ship until later this year but man do I want one.
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polyfractal posted:Just starting to research hobby CNC machines. Before I get too deep in the weeds, any recommendations for a machine/setup that emphasizes precision over speed/size? I think I'll mainly use it for machining small plastic (acetal) gears and mechanisms, or to make master molds for resin casting. What kind of gear, what tooth pitch, and what attachment pattern? For the most part, gears are hobbed, not milled, you use a dividing head and a gear cutting tool to cut the teeth on most gears, which would need a bigger machine to do most gears, though bigger is very relative if the gears are only an inch wide.
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Methylethylaldehyde posted:What kind of gear, what tooth pitch, and what attachment pattern? For the most part, gears are hobbed, not milled, you use a dividing head and a gear cutting tool to cut the teeth on most gears, which would need a bigger machine to do most gears, though bigger is very relative if the gears are only an inch wide. To be honest, I don't really know... I largely wanted a machine so that I could play around and experiment with different geared mechanisms (planetary gears, cycloidal, etc). I imagine simple 3D CNC routers/mills are limited to spur and bevel gears? I.e. a helical or worm gear would require a 4th axis to rotate/index. I just did a quick search and it appears gear hobbing is non-trivial and rather specialized... not exactly DIY hobby friendly. Perhaps I should just stick to ordering mass manufactured gears. Or maybe investigate higher-res 3D printing like SLA? polyfractal fucked around with this message at 16:33 on Jan 16, 2017 |
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If you're willing to go with plastic and acrylic gears, why not a laser engraver/cutter?
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# ? Jun 7, 2024 00:23 |
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polyfractal posted:To be honest, I don't really know... I largely wanted a machine so that I could play around and experiment with different geared mechanisms (planetary gears, cycloidal, etc). I imagine simple 3D CNC routers/mills are limited to spur and bevel gears? I.e. a helical or worm gear would require a 4th axis to rotate/index. You should have a look at this: http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/gcnc/ch1/ it seems exactly up your alley. The guy who wrote that has a desktop Roland.
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