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tiistai posted:I would assume that you can set an incinerator, of all things, alight with something other than a lit cigarette. Also, are you seriously suggesting that Hideyoshi, after murdering someone, decided to hang around the crime scene, have a smoke and then just dump the cigarette there? People have been caught that way - smoking is a way to settle nerves and a habitual one.
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Jan 5, 2017 16:57
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Robindaybird posted:People have been caught that way - smoking is a way to settle nerves and a habitual one. Sure, but in the middle of a tsunami or while setting up an elaborate closed room chain?
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Jan 5, 2017 17:41
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tiistai posted:Sure, but in the middle of a tsunami or while setting up an elaborate closed room chain? How else can you deliver a sick one-liner while your victim bursts into flames behind you and you walk away in slow motion?
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Jan 5, 2017 17:42
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ProfessorProf posted:How else can you deliver a sick one-liner while your victim bursts into flames behind you and you walk away in slow motion?  "...looks like Father just got... smoked."
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Jan 5, 2017 17:48
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YYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH! Ahem, sorry... But seriously, we never got to see within the rooms, so we can't really say that there was no spent cigarette found anywhere around the bodies; these are family members and servants being found in quick succession (the keys in the envelopes provide a good distraction for searching the rooms, after all), so I'm gonna assume the initial search of those rooms might have been slapdash. Also, until we get a diagram of the boiler room and where Kinzo's body was actually found (in the boiler a la the first episode, or on the floor?), we cannot discount that his body was set alight via the old "leave a ciggy burning in a puddle of gasoline" trick. resurgam40 fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Jan 5, 2017 |
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Jan 5, 2017 17:54
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The butt (lol) must be Hideyoshi's because the alternative—Kyrie literally being Rudolf's ash tray—is too gross to contemplate. If it's relatively fresh, it could totally bust Hideyoshi's and Eva's alibis simultaneously. If you refer to earlier in the episode...ProfessorProf posted:Rudolf and Hideyoshi went out onto the deck and took out some cigarettes. Eva had always hated the smell of cigarettes, but when she was in a bad mood, she got even more sensitive to them. When they decided to smoke casually until they reached the island, the two of them had gotten yelled at and chased out onto the deck. Hideyoshi can't smoke in the same room as Eva. So if he smoked, they were separated at some point. Kyrie may have come to that conclusion when she or Rudolf found the butt somewhere in the guesthouse, and maybe was planning on using it as a basis to confront Hideyoshi in the mansion. At best, it could mean that he used her absence (maybe a "bathroom break"?) as an opportunity to smoke somewhere and was uninvolved with any seriously bad deeds until he shot Rudolf/Kyrie in self defense. At worst he put out his cigarette on Genji's forehead after he killed him.
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Jan 5, 2017 18:02
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resurgam40 posted:Hm, maybe it's because Evatrice is specifically using magic as an excuse? Meaning that any Devil's Proof will bew countered by the magic claim, and since Battler's side is denying magic, the burden of proof is on him to explain it. It's seems a bit like a court case; Battler is prosecuting magic, and therefore the burden of proof rests with him whenever the subject of magic specifically comes up, but not otherwise. The court analogy is apt, since that's where the concept of "the devil's proof" comes from in the first place; probatio diabolica means, basically, asking someone to prove something that is impossible to prove, and is deliberately avoided by any reputable legal system. It's why the burden of proof is on the prosecution in criminal cases, because proving that you DIDN'T murder someone could well be impossible if you didn't happen to be on live television at the time of the murder or something. Whereas if you did murder them, the evidence to prove it ought to exist (and if we're going to make things impossible for one side or the other, our system errs on the side of letting guilty people go as opposed to convicting innocents, or at least it tries to). It's still bullshit in this case, though; all Battler should have to say is "so she lied about why she went, but she must have had some other reason than magic to go, gently caress you". I guess we can let it slide for the convenience of the author, though. bman in 2288 posted:So, if I'm gonna stick with my argument (and Battler's) that Eva was the main culprit for most of the murders, then perhaps Kyrie caught on to Eva's scheme, and moved to look for clues in the mansion about her movements. I don't know if Eva smokes, but Hideyoshi does, so Eva has easy access to cigarettes. Important to recognize: Rudolf smokes too, but I can't think of anything he'd have to do with the murders right now. This is undoubtedly correct. Kyrie wanted to go to collect evidence about the murders, because she didn't believe there was some maniac wandering the island killing people; she assumed that someone from the family was doing it. She might even have specifically suspected Eva, because she's not a damned idiot. The food thing was a convenient excuse. By bringing Hideyoshi but not Eva, they might have been trying to force him into a confession; I mean, they outnumber him two to one. I would guess that she snuck out after them, there was a gunfight, and three of them died during it. Afterward, Eva could have planted the stakes on them to preserve the theory of a witch and/or crazed killer, then snuck back into the house. The stake holes would cover up any bullet wounds, and if Nanjo is on her side that wouldn't matter anyway since nobody else is going to examine them. As to where she would have gotten it, either using it to ignite Kinzo's remains or just dropping it idly in a suspicious spot (any room with a non-smoker locked in it) would work. Don't underestimate the compulsion smokers have; I've seen friends light up automatically when walking outside even knowing they'd have to go into another building less than thirty seconds later, meaning they'd waste the majority of the cigarette. A habitual smoker barely realizes they're doing it unless you point it out.
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Jan 5, 2017 18:04
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oath2order posted:
resurgam40 posted:YYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH!
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Jan 5, 2017 18:06
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"...looks like Father just got... smoked."
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idonotlikepeas posted:Don't underestimate the compulsion smokers have; I've seen friends light up automatically when walking outside even knowing they'd have to go into another building less than thirty seconds later, meaning they'd waste the majority of the cigarette. A habitual smoker barely realizes they're doing it unless you point it out. Yea, speaking as someone who had a relative with a pack-a-day habit, it's reflexive - get stressed, light a cigarette to calm down, it's completely second nature. And Hideyoshi is hardly a cold-blooded man, so he kills/helps arrange the crime scene, gets extremely agitated - and he has to put on a poker face for when the bodies are 'discovered', he lights up without thinking to settle his nerves and compose himself to act out a big lie.
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Jan 5, 2017 18:09
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Who here isn't a blood relative? Hideyoshi, Natsuhi, Kyrie, Nanjo, and the servants. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that two or more of these people were in cahoots with or without Eva. I suspect "without," as I don't think Eva killed the first closed room circuit victims. Who among them smokes? This is the 80s, so smoking is common in Japan. Most of the male adults probably smoke -- we know Hideyoshi smokes, right? So perhaps Kyrie and Hideyoshi are conspiring. But who else do we know smokes? Have we seen any evidence of that so far? I'd be more comfortable with the notion that Kyrie is conspiring with Rudolf, but I don't think it's outside the bounds of possibility that Kyrie is conspiring for his benefit but without his knowledge. It would be difficult if not impossible for her to draw in any other family members, but it might be possible for her to strike up a common cause with Hideyoshi to eliminate anyone from the set of family adults: [Rosa, Kinzo, Krauss, Natsuhi] as well as the set of unrelated staff [Nanjo & servants] and the set of potential minor heirs: [Maria, Battler, Jessica]. I'm eliminating George because Hideyoshi probably will not agree to murder his own son, but I'm including Battler because he is a symbol of Kyrie's "failure" to secure Rudolf's affections and loyalty to herself alone earlier in their relationship.
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Jan 5, 2017 18:11
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I think Battler's parents set up a plan to squeeze answers out of Hideyoshi by stealing his cigs, convincing him to go on a "food" run, then offering a cigarette to calm down and talk without Eva. It seems likely that Hideyoshi was already having thoughts about changing sides, so Eva didn't want the secret of her alibi to get out so she had to make a move.
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Jan 5, 2017 18:59
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Tender Child Loins posted:The butt (lol) must be Hideyoshi's because the alternative—Kyrie literally being Rudolf's ash tray—is too gross to contemplate. Kinkshaming, in this, the seacats thread?
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Jan 5, 2017 19:24
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POOL IS CLOSED posted:Who among them smokes? This is the 80s, so smoking is common in Japan. Most of the male adults probably smoke -- we know Hideyoshi smokes, right? So perhaps Kyrie and Hideyoshi are conspiring. But who else do we know smokes? Have we seen any evidence of that so far? The narration explicitly pointed out Rudolf and Hideyoshi going out for a smoke break together earlier on, as stated. It's entirely possible that she cornered the two of them because she knew they both had the habit and figured at least one of them would have something to say. At this point, it's entirely possible she could have even suspected her husband. After all, the Kyrie we saw this episode is definitely shrewd enough to not assume anything.
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Jan 5, 2017 19:46
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ProfessorProf posted:
You all listened to this one, right?
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Jan 5, 2017 20:23
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KataraniSword posted:The narration explicitly pointed out Rudolf and Hideyoshi going out for a smoke break together earlier on, as stated. Ah, somehow I forgot about that or missed it. Thanks! So we have at least two known smokers. Kyrie could totally suspect Rudolf, but if she does suspect him, I wonder if she actually minds? That's perhaps not the right word, but I can't think of a better way to phrase it right now. Before her envy rant, I would have pegged her as someone who would turn on her husband if he's a murderer, but now I'm less certain.
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Jan 5, 2017 20:29
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little_firebird posted:You all listened to this one, right? It's kind of like Tubular Bells got mugged in an alley by Cornered and had its statement taken by O Fortuna.
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Jan 5, 2017 20:53
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Also, don't forget, none of Kyrie's, Rudolf's or Hideyoshi's deaths were ever said in red. Ronove withdrew himself first. Hideyoshi and/or Rudolf could still be alive and be culprits. It's hard to believe Hideyoshi'd kill George though.
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Jan 5, 2017 22:55
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 True, she didn't have an actual box of cigarettes, but at a glance, it naturally looked as though Kyrie had a smoking habit...  "...Dad smoked, but Kyrie didn't. But she did walk around with just a lighter to light Dad's cigarettes." "Ha! So what? If the husband smoked, then even if the wife didn't, it wouldn't be strange for her to be holding a cigarette." "Maybe she just picked up the cigarette butt of her husband, who had bad smoking manners? What are you trying to say? What does this have to do with my magic? Nothing at all!!!" "I'll say more. This is a different brand of cigarette than what Dad smokes. Sorry, Beato. Could you look in the pockets of Dad's corpse too?" "...I-Indeed. You mean this...?"  "And so what? Maybe Kyrie is just a good girl who likes things to be clean, so she couldn't leave a fallen cigarette butt alone and picked it up? I wouldn't though!!" "...Beato, sorry, but one more time please. Uncle Hideyoshi's pockets. In this family, only Dad and Hideyoshi smoke cigarettes." "...I-It's here...! Is this it...?Beato found a cigarette box in Hideyoshi's pocket, took a single one out, and held it up.  "...Checking the brand. We acknowledge that the cigarette butt is of the same brand that Hideyoshi smokes." "A-And so what?!! How can you break my magic because you found Hideyoshi's cigarette butt in Kyrie's pocket?!!" "...That's right. This cigarette butt is a message from Kyrie-san. No, this cigarette butt itself is the reason that Kyrie-san left the guesthouse." BGM: Dread of the Grave - More Fear  "...Virgilia!! Reconstruct the situation! The guesthouse after it came to light that Aunt Rosa and Maria had been killed on the second twilight!!" "Understood."  "There's nothing suspicious about that at all. What are you trying to say? Why are you bringing up the second twilight when we're talking about the fourth twilight and after...?!" "Dad carried a portable cigarette butt holder with him. I'm finally starting to see why Kyrie-san went out of her way to put a cigarette butt in her own pocket." "...It was because that cigarette butt meant something. That cigarette butt was itself a message left by Kyrie-san for us...!!" "Th-Then let's hear it!! How do you plan to deny me with that single cigarette butt?!!" "...As we've heard, after the second twilight, an inspection was done of all the rooms in the guesthouse. At that time, Kyrie-san found something that shouldn't exist, in a place where it shouldn't be." "...S-Something that shouldn't exist...? What do you mean by that?" "It's this. This cigarette butt. This was set in the ashtray of the guest room that Uncle Hideyoshi was in." "Whaah?!?! What's wrong with there being a cigarette butt in an ashtray?!! Are you sure there isn't something wrong with your head?!"  "However, there was a cigarette butt in the ashtray. When she saw that, Kyrie-san noticed immediately. Uncle Hideyoshi was lying. She realized that Aunt Eva hadn't really been sleeping, and that she'd snuck out of the room!!" "Repetition requested!! 'This cigarette butt was crushed out in the ashtray of the room where Aunt Eva and Uncle Hideyoshi were resting!'" "...I-I refuse...!" "I've finally got it... Thank you, Beato." "...W-Was I... of some... use...?" "Yeah, you were!! Tear it, we'll tear the mask off of the fake witch!!!" Hideyoshi had been tasked with watching over the room to create an alibi, and during that time, he was unable to withstand the tension and smoked. Then, Kyrie had confessed that to Rudolf. She confessed that there was a good chance Eva was the culprit, and Hideyoshi was an accomplice.  "...Next, Kyrie-san proposed that they go to get food. She then asked Uncle Hideyoshi to lend a hand!! This could only mean one thing." "Kyrie-san planned to isolate Uncle Hideyoshi and question him about the truth!!" "Your 'Hempel's Raven' is valid. Unless the witch side counters this move, the existence of the magic that supposedly controlled Kyrie has been denied." "Wh-What did you saaaaaaaaaaaayy?!?!" "I-I deny it, anyway, I deny it...!! It wasn't me, noooo! It wasn't Ushiromiya Eva, Eva was sleeping in her room!!!" "Then try saying it. Yeah, you can't say it! You can't say it this time either!!" "What the hell is thaaaaaaaat?! I'm the one who was attacking, right?! Why am I the one being attacked now?! When did offense and defense get reversed?! I'm the one questioning you, right?! The witch, me, so whyyyyyyyyyy!!!"  "Does the witch side have a move in response?" "...There cannot be one. There is no truth that can be accepted from a false witch dressed up with truths and falsehoods." "You aren't qualified to call yourself a real witch!! You aren't the Golden Witch! You're a human!"   "Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh!!"The witch howled. Her entire body was burned with the tremendous heat that denied her own magic and existence, and she let out a howl like a dragon... Her body flickered repeatedly, flashing as though Eva's figure and the witch's figure overlapped. However, that yell was sucked into the flicker, making it return to the original form of the cruel witch.   Video: The Perfect Checkmate "...That's right, I actually can't repulse all moves related to Ushiromiya Eva being the culprit. I may have been dragged down from the position of Golden Witch, and you might call me Ushiromiya Eva now..." "But you know what? That by itself doesn't mean that witches and magic have been denied!! I'll teach you starting now... I'll teach you that I am not Ushiromiya Eva, nor a Human..." "...but a real witch...!!! Take a look at this red truth!!" Battler and Eva dashed to the front of the parlor, calling out Jessica's name. They were searching for Jessica because they had gone to the servant room, found Nanjo's corpse, and didn't know where Jessica was. "...So, what's your point? What are you trying to say?" "...Y-You couldn't be... Oh no..."Beato went pale. In other words, the move the evil witch was about to make was bad enough to make even Beato go pale... "This time, I'll give you a fatal move that you won't be able to talk yourself out of... No, I'll make this move against all Humans who support you. Listen carefully to my move." "...St-Stop it, that move is...!" "Beato, stay back...!! I'll take it! Come on, you fake witch!!" BGM: Happiness of Marionette - Omake  "...Wh-Whaat...?" "I'll seal you, and Humans as well, in a red barrier that most certainly cannot be escaped from. Farewell, lowly Humans. Sleep for all eternity in a absolute closed room of magic with no exits. Come on, listen carefully. Listen to the red truth." Throw away your foolish thoughts of mysterious people hiding and committing crimes. But if I say it that way, you might also suspect animal culprits. I couldn't stand to hear some irrational theory about how an orangutan trained to commit murder wouldn't count as a human. So, I'll change it like this.  That's how it is. Next, I'll explain the situation of all 18 people who exist on this island.  Those 15 are all dead. And.  That's everyone, all 18 of them!  "...Wh-What did you say...? D-Dammit, you don't mean..."  "...And I know what you're thinking. Your next move will be this, right? There's also a chance that Jessica is the culprit! But too bad, I'll slice it up in red before you try!!"  "W-Wait a second!! That doesn't make sense!! There were only three humans, then a murder occurs, and none of those three were involved?! That's insane!!"  "No, umm, th-that's right! What about multiple personalities...?! Just like how you were originally another personality of Aunt Eva's, let's say Jessica had another, witch-like personality, which took the name of 'someone other than Jessica' and killed Doctor Nanjo...!!" "No matter what kind of personality she was possessed by, murder could not be carried out with her body! I wonder if you'll be satisfied if I say it this way? "Y-You've got to be kidding me!!! I mean, everyone else is definitely dead, right?!!" Then... all that's left... is the 'Doctor Nanjo Suicide Theory', right?! And the trap theory! The culprit was already dead, but a trap that they had already prepared went off..." "But wait!! There are only three survivors! You said in red that everyone else is dead! You basically confirmed the life or death status of all 18 people. Furthermore, the existence of a 19th person has already been denied in red...!!" "In other words, no one can exist except the three survivors!! And yet, a fourth person other than those three appeared before Doctor Nanjo!! How could a person other than us appear and murder Doctor Nanjo when no 19th person exists?!?! Insane!! You're lying!! You're lying with the red!!!" "D-drat it...!!!" "Right now, I'll state it clearly. The one who appeared in front of Nanjo was me. A witch." "...The Golden Witch, who can't be explained away with the 18 humans!!" "V-Virgilia! Ronove...!! Isn't there a contradiction in this situation?! Is she really telling the truth with red?!"  "...What an... elaborate and precise cornering..." "H-How should I make a move against her...? Virgilia...! Aren't there any moves...?!" "...I... cannot think of anything..." "...And you, Ronove?!" "...My apologies. However, in these last thousand years, I have never seen... such an elaborately beautiful game board layout." "...I hate to admit it, but it's beautiful... What a... beautiful... checkmate made in red..." ...Forget surrendering, they were impressed at this perfect checkmate, which simply had to be admired... When people accept defeat from the bottom of their hearts... It gives rise to neither regrets nor humiliation. Nothing is born except feelings of respect... I... no longer knew... what was what anymore. There were absolutely no weak points in her red. She had said in red that all of 15 people had died. She had said in red that no people existed other than the 18. In other words, no more than three people: me, Jessica, and Aunt Eva, existed. And even though none of those three people were the culprit, Doctor Nanjo was killed. And without a doubt, Doctor Nanjo's death was a homicide, he was murdered by 'that person' openly from in front of him...! And she's saying that 'that person'...is a witch...?!!  "The culprit who killed Nanjo was not an animal or anything of the sort. That has already been dealt with in red, right? Everything other than humans has been completely removed from consideration. Even things like robots don't work."   "...In other words, it was me. The Golden Witch, Beatrice!!" His soul still refused to surrender... However, his knees had already... started to accept surrender...  "Kuhhihhihihihihihihihihi! Oh, did you kneel...? That's right, you're already starting to understand. The Golden Witch does exist. And that Golden Witch, Beatrice, is me...!!" "Come on, praise me. Now, praise the resurrection of a true witch. Now, praise the resurrection of the Golden Witch, Beatrice!! On the ninth twilight, the witch shall revive, and none shall be left alive...!!!" "Daaamn iiiiiiiitt... I don't... understand...!" "After... being so thoroughly immobilized by the red, I don't... have a clue anymore...!" "...B-Battler... D-Don't lose heart... You and I... promised that we would fight each other again, right...? Will you surrender here...?! Will you disappear in a place like this before fighting with me again...?!" "I don't want to break that promise... However, I can't think of any move to deny her...!! In the first place, this isn't even a puzzle! Nothing exists outside the suspects, and all of the suspects are innocent! I was told that they were innocent in red, right?! And also that it was a real homicide, and that the culprit was human, and that they did appear before Doctor Nanjo's eyes and kill him! I give up, there's nothing I can do...!!!" "Please, Battler, don't give up, don't lose heart...! If you stop thinking, it automatically becomes your loss. I'm begging you, don't lose heart... I'm also cheering you on, so don't lose...!" "I can't think of anything anymore...!! I find myself thinking she's gotta be a witch, who must've done it with magic, which makes all thinking pointless...!" "It's useless, my head hurts, my brain's tired... I'm starting to think that thinking's pointless, so I should just stop...!!" A fool's mate is, simply put, a strange way of playing chess, in which the fastest methods of losing are considered. Opening the area in front of your own king and inviting the opponent's queen in. Even though the average game time in chess is several hours, a game can be resolved in a scant four moves. ...In other words, if both sides try to win in a fight, they are compelled to take a painfully long period of time, but if one side decides to lose, the game can be ended far too easily, at any time...  "...When the human side stops thinking, it hands the problem before its eyes over to the witch, and even an apple falling from a tree can be immediately resolved as the work of magic." "...It is the same for the witch's side. Witches use the red truth. By using that, they can explain the true form of magic with humans... and immediately lose." "...You don't have to tell me that... You're telling me to not stop thinking, right...? However, how should I counterattack that person's perfect bright-red move...? For me, for humans... it's no longer possible..." "...Is it... impossible...? Is it really... impossible for you, Battler...? Please, don't lose heart..." "...Sorry... I've... reached my limit..."Battler scratched at the floor, crying heavily. Beato watched that with a distressed face... Then she stood up and spoke to the witch.  BGM: Thanks for Being Born "Huh? I wonder just how you plan to cut up this perfect checkmate." "How can this checkmate, one totally impossible for Humans to break, be defeated by the likes of you?!" "...B-Beatrice, you don't mean to..." "Indeed. If a Human cannot make a move, I will assault you with a move I can use precisely because I am a witch..." "A move you can use because you're a witch...?" "...Wh-What are you planning to do...?"
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Jan 6, 2017 14:18
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The biggest twist in this update is that Chimpatrice has now finally been explicitly denied in red. Anyway, congratulations on more or less solving the previous mystery, and good luck with the next one.
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Jan 6, 2017 14:20
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Man, the cigarette button thing is such an unholy cliche. Early mystery writers who wrote down the rules of the genre straight up banned it as disqualifying for any mystery novel of merit.S.S Van Dine posted:And (to give my Credo an even score of items) I herewith list a few of the devices which no self-respecting detective-story writer will now avail himself of. They have been employed too often, and are familiar to all true lovers of literary crime. To use them is a confession of the author's ineptitude and lack of originality. Doesn't get much more flagrant than that. Though I think it does work here, since the cigarette butt is barely even a mystery, it feels more like an homage than anything else
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Jan 6, 2017 15:25
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ProfessorProf posted:The biggest twist in this update is that Chimpatrice has now finally been explicitly denied in red. Anyway, congratulations on more or less solving the previous mystery, and good luck with the next one.  Oh well, Ottumon, I was really pulling for that towards the end, so good try. Not like there isn't precedence; Evatrice even made a reference to Poe's good old story...I really don't get why Battler isn't considering that Nanjo, being an old man in a high stress situation, didn't just have a damned heart attack due to shock. He could have seen what he thought was the culprit raising a weapon at him and then his heart gave out, or a blood vessel burst, or he just slipped and hit his head; If we must consider that it was a homicide by somebody, Eva rounding the corner with her weapon brandished would have provided the surprise needed by such an outcome. He's an old guy and the state of his body has not come up, and we can't exactly rely on Jessica's testimony to find that out at present. Back to the plot... Man, is Beatrice going to do something that actually bums me out, and actually use the Red to open Schrodinger's box? I think she might! vvv Funny thing, though: Nanjo's still dead whether or not the "person brandishing a weapon" actually fired or not. Until I see the condition of the body, or until it is said in red that there is a foreign object found within his person that caused his death, we can't rule my scenario out. Also, I request repitiotion on the definition of homicide: does it require criminal malice to be involved, or does it simply mean that somebody is dead due to someone else's actions? resurgam40 fucked around with this message at 16:20 on Jan 6, 2017 |
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Jan 6, 2017 15:38
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resurgam40 posted:Nanjo, being an old man in a high stress situation, didn't just have a damned heart attack due to resurgam40 posted:Eva rounding the corner with her weapon brandished would have provided the surprise needed by such an outcome
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Jan 6, 2017 15:44
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Rest in peace Chimpatrice. Never again will you be revived.
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Jan 6, 2017 16:57
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resurgam40 posted:I request repitiotion on the definition of homicide: does it require criminal malice to be involved, or does it simply mean that somebody is dead due to someone else's actions? I think that No actions caused by Eva's body had any relation to or influence on the murder of Nanjo should be sufficient to cover that, but for once I'll go ahead and clarify as requested: Nanjo's death was caused by the intentional actions of a person, and that person could not have been Nanjo, Eva, Battler, or Jessica.
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Jan 6, 2017 17:27
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Man, just blowing up our old theories left and right here. I think this basically confirms the idea of Shannon (or Kanon, but more likely Shannon) having multiple identities - Battler even brings up the concept, and notice that instead of denying that that was a factor, Eva sticks with Jessica's body not being involved (despite going out of her way to deny robots and things like that). I assume she'd have a lot of resentment towards the family after being their servant for so long, and Eva has a big thing to hang over her head with George - she might have killed George once she realized Eva was never going to let her marry him, or something like that. So she kills Nanjo. No witches required.oath2order posted:Man, the cigarette button thing is such an unholy cliche. Early mystery writers who wrote down the rules of the genre straight up banned it as disqualifying for any mystery novel of merit. Van Dine's rules are just way, way too elaborate and I disagree with about half of them. (Particularly the idea that a mystery MUST be a murder mystery. Several Holmes adventures don't involve murders and they're all good.) I much prefer Chandler's set, although Knox's isn't terrible either. In fact, Knox's list is one of the reasons I was so tickled with the idea that Kinzo might have grown up in China, because then it means the story includes a (sort of) Chinaman. (For those not in the know, another early mystery writer had a rule that no Chinaman must figure in the story - he wasn't being racist, he was protesting the "yellow peril" stuff that had infected a lot of stories back then.) Chandler's rules are my favorite, though: Raymond Chandler's Mystery Rules posted:It must be credibly motivated, both as to the original situation and the dénouement.
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Jan 6, 2017 17:32
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ProfessorProf posted:I think that No actions caused by Eva's body had any relation to or influence on the murder of Nanjo should be sufficient to cover that, but for once I'll go ahead and clarify as requested: ...poo poo. Well, that's the health issue blown up... In that case, the only hole in the Checkmate that I can see is idonotlikepeas' theory of Shannon having forsaken that name and gone kill-crazy, but what's her motivation for killing Nanjo? Fear of being discovered by Eva? Knowledge that he was Eva's patsy and might have killed George? Snapping under the abuse of the family I can buy, but just going kill-crazy seems a little beyond Shannon as we know her.
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Jan 6, 2017 17:43
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I really like the idea that she might have revenge-killed him for killing George. That seems like a plausible motivation. Is Nanjo in a good position to kill George at any point? (It's hard to say WHY he would have done that, but we don't know a lot about his motivations at this point anyway, aside from possibly "money".) Shannon's body is in there with George when the room's opened, but she could have come in after (and then had to pretend to be dead again when everyone else showed up). Edit: Also, credit where credit is due; it's EagerSleeper's theory, I just like it. idonotlikepeas fucked around with this message at 17:58 on Jan 6, 2017 |
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Jan 6, 2017 17:55
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resurgam40 posted:...poo poo. Well, that's the health issue blown up... In that case, the only hole in the Checkmate that I can see is idonotlikepeas' theory of Shannon having forsaken that name and gone kill-crazy, but what's her motivation for killing Nanjo? Fear of being discovered by Eva? Knowledge that he was Eva's patsy and might have killed George? Snapping under the abuse of the family I can buy, but just going kill-crazy seems a little beyond Shannon as we know her. "Sh-Shannon? How could you?" "I'm not Shannon anymore, Dr. Nanjo... I'm the 10,000-year old demon lord and master of oblivion, Dr. Lou Asrathiel Ezekiel Mafafa Hernandez III!" Basically, yeah? Or it could be Kanon, since he "resurrected" at the scene of the crime. As for motivation, I guess there are a few things that would work. Yes, the tension over Shannon's engagement with George or Kanon's desire to be with Jessica could be a factor. Note that Jessica's still alive—maybe he'll try to convince her to run away with him? Probably not going to work, but it might if she has no idea he and Shannon have been killing her family members. Or maybe Nanjo was just simply in his way, or, if he's an accomplice, Kanon killed him to keep him quiet. edit:   vvvvvvvvv witchcore ricepunk fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Jan 6, 2017 |
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Jan 6, 2017 18:04
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Tender Child Loins posted:"Sh-Shannon? How could you?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RNmINEsN6U
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Jan 6, 2017 18:10
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lotus circle posted:Rest in peace Chimpatrice. Never again will you be revived. You who seek the Chimp Theory, follow this post downstream and seek the gaps. If you read Eva's words, you will see a gap. No lifeforms other than humans have any connection to this game. There sleeps the key to the Chimp Theory. He who lays hands upon the key shall travel under rules below. On the first twilight, you shall leave Kinzo alive to guide the chimps. On the second twilight, the chimps shall tear apart the two who are close. On the third twilight, those chimps shall praise my honorable name on high. On the fourth twilight, gouge the head and kill. On the fifth twilight, gouge the chest and kill. On the sixth twilight, gouge the stomach and kill. On the seventh twilight, gouge the knee and kill. On the eighth twilight, gouge the leg and kill. On the ninth twilight, the witchimp shall revive, and only chimps shall be left alive. On the tenth twilight, the journey shall end, and you shall reach the theory of chimp. The witchimp will praise the wise, and should bestow four treasures. One shall be, none of the gold from the Chimp Theory. One shall be, the resurrection of the souls of all the dead. One shall be, even the resurrection of the lost love. One shall be, to put the witchimp to sleep for all time. Sleep peacefully, my most beloved theory, Chimpatrice.
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Jan 6, 2017 18:12
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Nanjo was in fact killed by his alternate personality, Dr. Lou. He held the gun in his own face. What's that? The culprit appeared before Nanjo's eyes? That's because he was looking in a mirror. My scenario fits with the red, so no point trying to deny it. Except Prof's red, but he's not Umineko so he doesn't count.
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Jan 6, 2017 18:14
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Has it been established that the 15 dead people are dead at the time Nanjo was killed? Evatrice established that 15 people died and none of the 3 survivors killed him, but she only stated Nanjo was the last victim in white, so maybe one of the original 'victims' killed him and died afterwards. I'm confused by how this game defines witches ("there are no more than 18 people on the island" and "Nanjo was killed by a human who is not one of the 18, the witch [but a witch is a human who can use magic]") seem to contradict themselves. Not sure if this is just opaque language or an actual plot point.
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Jan 6, 2017 18:22
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resurgam40 posted:...poo poo. Well, that's the health issue blown up... In that case, the only hole in the Checkmate that I can see is idonotlikepeas' theory of Shannon having forsaken that name and gone kill-crazy, but what's her motivation for killing Nanjo? Fear of being discovered by Eva? Knowledge that he was Eva's patsy and might have killed George? Snapping under the abuse of the family I can buy, but just going kill-crazy seems a little beyond Shannon as we know her. Because I can't come up with anything better at the moment, I'll augment this idea. I'll argue that Nanjo may have been one of Eva's patsies that Shannon became aware of, and after becoming Sayo again, she grabbed a murder weapon and hunted down George's killer. She believed he was an accomplice to George's murder, killed him. On the other hand, she may legitimately be crazy after George died, and intends to take everyone left on the island to where George is now (dead). But I want to talk about the move Beato is going to attempt. There's two moves she can try. She can go the obvious route and say that a witch had nothing to do with Nanjo's death. Or she could go big and say that the events of this game never happened, or rather, the events after Eva found the gold never happened. There's too many logical inconsistencies in the story for it to have happened. The three surviving humans didn't kill Nanjo, but another human killed him? And they were supposed to be the only 4 left on the island. Evatrice is going too whole hog on the red, and she's created a scenario that cannot exist... Actually, I want to double down in the idea that the events of the game that happened after Eva found the gold never happened. Eva finding the gold doesn't result in the birth of a new witch. Hence, the new witch didn't exist. If that witch doesn't exist, then the claims made by that witch cannot be true, as they are made by a being that doesn't exist. Therefore, the impossible scenario that new witch puts forth doesn't exist, because she built it in the first place. In short, gently caress witches.
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Jan 6, 2017 18:31
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Ottumon posted:Sleep peacefully, my most beloved theory, Chimpatrice. RIP to Umineko's real MVP 
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Jan 6, 2017 18:33
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I love this thread.
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Jan 6, 2017 18:39
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bman in 2288 posted:Actually, I want to double down in the idea that the events of the game that happened after Eva found the gold never happened. Eva finding the gold doesn't result in the birth of a new witch. Hence, the new witch didn't exist. If that witch doesn't exist, then the claims made by that witch cannot be true, as they are made by a being that doesn't exist. Therefore, the impossible scenario that new witch puts forth doesn't exist, because she built it in the first place. You know, there might be something to this, too, if you want to consider the battle between Beatrice and Virgilia, wherein Beatrice negated Virgilia's victory with a secret fatal strike, to be foreshadowing.
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Jan 6, 2017 18:43
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As long as I can contribute something useful to this thread, I'm golden. Because as I said earlier, gently caress witches.
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Jan 6, 2017 18:49
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Everyone in this thread is a witch. Edit: ahahahaha
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Jan 6, 2017 19:17
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As Battler, I would go for repetition requested: right before Nanjos death, Eva, Battler, Jessica, and Nanjo were the only living humans on Rokkenjima. If she won't say that then the "Shannon died but Sayo didn't" theory could be a contender. If that did get repeated in red, then I might have to resign. That was a lot of red in that update.
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Jan 6, 2017 20:05
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| # ? May 10, 2024 18:38 |
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Qrr posted:As Battler, I would go for repetition requested: right before Nanjos death, Eva, Battler, Jessica, and Nanjo were the only living humans on Rokkenjima. If she won't say that then the "Shannon died but Sayo didn't" theory could be a contender. That would be like denying herself. ProfessorProf posted:
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Jan 6, 2017 20:13
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