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Crazy Larry posted:Well apparently the balance team went on vacation after the preseason changes and their first reaction to the current situation with ADCs was to blame the assassin update/lethality changes so I guess give it two months and they might get around to discussing the problems we're talking about now. They're totally right that it has to do with lethality, though. Every AD-scaling champ lost a shitload of damage now that the incredibly efficient armor pen is now the garbage lethality. Did they ever explain why mpen is still just mpen instead of scaling like lethality?
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Jan 5, 2017 20:13
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I said scaling mages was a bad idea back in beta, seven years later I'm in the right. Really though, itemization needs to be fixed, and everyone else has already said how. The total lack of ability to counter a 4v2 bot gank that comes from both increased jungle XP and pressure is demoralizing to the mere concept of ADC. Nothing makes me stop caring about a competitive game faster/harder than zero option situations. And that's what traditional bot lanes are facing right now. Whoever gets that walk in gank on bot first removes bots options to do anything but farm and run for base at the first sign of danger. Since Riot, especially Riot would never whole scale admit and revert a giant mistake like buffing junglers and mid assassins at the same while destroying ADC itemization, everything is probably hosed for a couple months while they fix things one at a time. So obviously the answer is to play 2-1-2, five tanks, final destination.
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Jan 5, 2017 20:14
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Also, remember when Twitch and Vayne were super strong and pick/ban and everyone was getting blown up by them? It was PAST PATCH. The memory of some people is so short
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Jan 5, 2017 20:15
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rabidsquid posted:i get that you hate mobility but its got virtually nothing to do with the sorry state of ADCs Poppy is an issue but so is literally every champion just jumping on them. Itemization does need fixing but even if adc's could kill tanks reasonably well it's not like people are diving you 4v2 with jungle poppy at the moment. It's usually just mid roam + lee or w/e, tanks make the mid game suck but are also half the reason legit adcs are worth having around late game.
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Jan 5, 2017 20:18
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Orv posted:I said scaling mages was a bad idea back in beta, seven years later I'm in the right. Itemization and scaling have absolutely nothing to do with getting dove at your tower by mid and jungle hth
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Jan 5, 2017 20:18
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Vayne will always be powerful because of the insanity that is her kit. Twitch benefited from a crazy confluence of balance that made him stupendously scary. Everyone else was slammed through the bottom of the trash can into a shallow grave. E: I mean doesn't everyone want Lucien to be good again? Firebert posted:Itemization and scaling have absolutely nothing to do with getting dove at your tower by mid and jungle hth I rambled a bit there. Orv fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Jan 5, 2017 |
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Jan 5, 2017 20:19
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Orv posted:Vayne will always be powerful because of the insanity that is her kit. Twitch benefited from a crazy confluence of balance that made him stupendously scary. Everyone else was slammed through the bottom of the trash can into a shallow grave. Twitch was good cause his invisibility lasted so long he could just hover around a fight until the people who could jump on him used cooldowns and then pop up and ult. I remember watching qt playing him a bunch and there was a super comical moment when he was just sitting around invisible waiting for their assassin to come out and he was just joking about how they were both just ccing each other out of the fight.
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Jan 5, 2017 20:22
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ArbitraryC posted:Poppy is an issue but so is literally every champion just jumping on them. Itemization does need fixing but even if adc's could kill tanks reasonably well it's not like people are diving you 4v2 with jungle poppy at the moment. It's usually just mid roam + lee or w/e, tanks make the mid game suck but are also half the reason legit adcs are worth having around late game. if mobility was the problem a no mobility ap mage like ziggs would not be able to be the literally best bot lane champion
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Jan 5, 2017 20:24
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rabidsquid posted:if mobility was the problem a no mobility ap mage like ziggs would not be able to be the literally best bot lane champion
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Jan 5, 2017 20:26
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There's nothing inherently weak about marksmen fwiw. They were played at every single position in the game last season ffs. Riot just didn't put much thought into how armour pen and mastery changes would effect struggling champs like Lucian and Draven.
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Jan 5, 2017 20:27
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Vayne and Twitch are good because they really benefited from the changes to stealth/invisibility and also because Vayne is a great tank killer. Caitlin is good because she dominates most lanes and is an excellent in siege comps. Honestly I think all the talk of ADCs being a horrible role is a little overblown, I don't mind some diversity in the bot lane. I think APC Ziggs/Cass or w/e is cool. I'm much more bothered by Poppy/Camille being incredibly dominant around 25 minutes into the game no matter how they do in lane.
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Jan 5, 2017 20:27
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Please don't take my unkillable blue midget away.  Though maybe being able to just stand in the middle of the enemy team waiting for cooldowns is a bit much.
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Jan 5, 2017 20:30
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There's nothing inherently bad about scaling mages, its just that they can't exist alongside basic right clicking heroes without incurring severe friction. In dota (where the concept of a carry the team had to nurse and protect started) mages could dominate for the first half of the game, but the lack of scaling meant they either became semicarries (weaker carries) halfway through or became entirely utilitarian. With mages capable of scaling the concept of "dogshit hero everyone can obliterate early on, only strong damage dealer lategame" becomes obsolete unless you make tgeir damage scaling so utterly severe that mages might as well not have scaling. ...but then because of how carries scale this just enable AD mages the start the problem anew. It's easier to just remove the concept than to remove every AD mage and AP item.
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Jan 5, 2017 20:35
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Singed got to design a champion, maybe that's what they did with TotalBiscuit's reward: http://universe.leagueoflegends.com/en_US/story/singed-thenightmare-story
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Jan 5, 2017 20:39
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kingcobweb posted:They're totally right that it has to do with lethality, though. Every AD-scaling champ lost a shitload of damage now that the incredibly efficient armor pen is now the garbage lethality. The arpen build wasn't the standard build for all ADCs though, unless I missed the Caitlin/Jinx Ghostblade first meta. You can't say that ADC doesn't have a problem with build paths/early game itemization just because a subset of them have a cheap and powerful first buy when an equally large subset still use the BF sword first build path (a build path that has been criticized since season 5), especially when two of the early spike champs are also two of the strongest late game carries, completely distorting the idea of balancing them based on their power curve.
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Jan 5, 2017 20:43
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Old LW was bullshit and I'm glad it's dead.
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Jan 5, 2017 20:53
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Neurolimal posted:There's nothing inherently bad about scaling mages, its just that they can't exist alongside basic right clicking heroes without incurring severe friction. You're right, let's buff Illaoi.
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Jan 5, 2017 20:55
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Bring back 3k gold 100 ad 20% lifesteal bloodthirster
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Jan 5, 2017 20:56
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Orv posted:You're right, let's buff Illaoi. nah, IMO riot just needs to make carries stronger early, weaker late, and phase out/reduce crit-based carry items. like someone else said suggesting a meta where Draven top is a thing, a healthy ADC scenario would be one where they can be just as fluid with lane choices as literally every other hero is.
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Jan 5, 2017 20:57
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ADCs aren't even that strong late now. You can 1v1 Mages if you have Flash but a 6 item no-boots ADC will still take a minute to kill a 5 item Poppy and 20 seconds to kill a 5 item Irelia.
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Jan 5, 2017 21:21
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Sexpansion posted:Singed got to design a champion, maybe that's what they did with TotalBiscuit's reward: http://universe.leagueoflegends.com/en_US/story/singed-thenightmare-story Looks like Warwick got a new backstory for his rework
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Jan 5, 2017 21:27
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Firebert posted:Looks like Warwick got a new backstory for his rework I'll believe it when I see it. I feel like they've been "reworking" Warwick for two seasons now.
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Jan 5, 2017 21:31
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lets get some new CC abilities in the game. make a guy who can berserk people(base AD doubled, can not cast spells). put sleep in(upon taking damage, wake up from CC). put like, confuse, where people start attacking they own allies. riot i know you guys are reading this. and give me some free RP if you do this so i can buy a nami skin please. E: make a guy who lassos people off on a rope and you can only move n teemos away from the guy who lassod you, but you are free to do whatever, and the guy lassoing you can pull you around with it. that would be sick
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Jan 5, 2017 21:31
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Vermain posted:. If your lane goes well and get first tower gold, you feel like you're hanging onto the game by a thread, because Lee Sin or LeBlanc or whoever can still jump on you and pop you in a couple of moves and you have no way to itemize against them without severely crippling yourself. I feel like this is the biggest part of the problem, there isn't any "stay ahead" or "stop the bleeding and survive" items for ADC like their are AP champs. Do you think it would help if they upped the AD on Maw or gave Merc Scim a better build path? or hell, item chat, if they made BF build out of a Pickaxe + sword combo?
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Jan 5, 2017 21:35
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They can't make good mid early ad items good enough to make a 1 item ad powerful without forcing me to see zed in games, which is not at all acceptable.
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Jan 5, 2017 21:37
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And you can't make an item that makes Caitlyn suriviable without making graves immortal. It's a tough problem.
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Jan 5, 2017 21:38
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Work Friend Keven posted:They can't make good mid early ad items good enough to make a 1 item ad powerful without forcing me to see zed in games, which is not at all acceptable. they could just do range vs melee split. the graves problem is a lot harder to deal with but it is pretty trivial from a design perspective to keep zed from using the hot marksman items
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Jan 5, 2017 21:46
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what if that mirage blade item from the bilgewater event was brought over with a ranged restriction, would that be too good, not enough? in addition to the passive/active giving you an extra mini-flash backwards it had a pretty unique stat spread, i can't think of other items with both lifesteal and crit
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Jan 5, 2017 21:57
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TheAnomaly posted:or hell, item chat, if they made BF build out of a Pickaxe + sword combo? I'd be pretty happy if they tried out this to see how it played out (they could do the same for NLR as it is). Honestly I've always wondered why they didn't bring offensive itemization into line with defensive itemization by making long sword/amp tome the only base level items and making the other one's upgrades from them. It'd go a long way to alleviating the issue of 1000g being a bad back for adcs.
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Jan 5, 2017 22:00
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Firebert posted:Looks like Warwick got a new backstory for his rework oh yeah that would make sense too
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Jan 5, 2017 22:03
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Crazy Larry posted:I'll believe it when I see it. I feel like they've been "reworking" Warwick for two seasons now. it's 100% Warwick, they said his rework would be out before the next new champ.
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Jan 5, 2017 22:05
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wolverwick
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Jan 5, 2017 22:06
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Tales of Woe posted:it's 100% Warwick, they said his rework would be out before the next new champ. Given how long he's been slated for a rework I'm just going to take that to mean that we aren't getting a new champ until 2018.
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Jan 5, 2017 22:08
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Sexpansion posted:Singed got to design a champion, maybe that's what they did with TotalBiscuit's reward: http://universe.leagueoflegends.com/en_US/story/singed-thenightmare-story I forgot about that part of the lore where singed told someone to get cancer and die.
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Jan 5, 2017 22:13
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a medical mystery posted:what if that mirage blade item from the bilgewater event was brought over with a ranged restriction, would that be too good, not enough? in addition to the passive/active giving you an extra mini-flash backwards it had a pretty unique stat spread, i can't think of other items with both lifesteal and crit would be unreal busted but since it's always tanks that get the super broken item / talent / dumb metagolem build every season, why not let a different class have some fun this time
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Jan 5, 2017 22:13
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Lovechop posted:would be unreal busted but since it's always tanks that get the super broken item / talent / dumb metagolem build every season, why not let a different class have some fun this time TBF I was stacking Black Cleavers on MF too that one time
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Jan 5, 2017 22:22
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When are they adding Zac health size technology to breasts? That way builds like
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Jan 5, 2017 22:49
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Crazy Larry posted:Given how long he's been slated for a rework I'm just going to take that to mean that we aren't getting a new champ until 2018. I am ok with this
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Jan 6, 2017 00:41
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im gonna laugh if ziggs is p/b and botlane is nothing but viktor and velkoz apc for the first few weeks of the competitive season
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Jan 6, 2017 01:29
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Hashtag Yoloswag posted:im gonna laugh if ziggs is p/b and botlane is nothing but viktor and velkoz apc for the first few weeks of the competitive season real talk this would be awesome
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Jan 6, 2017 02:09
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