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namesake posted:Not really. Crony capitalism is obviously capitalism with capitalists acting according to the principles of capitalism and capturing the state to advance their own interests which is somehow bad sportsmanship or something according to liberals who criticise it but still like capitalism. State capitalism argues that the workers weren't actually in control, the party was and the party became estranged from the workers, meaning it wasn't socialism. Perhaps it would have been clearer to specify "the way libertarians use..." etc. I stand by classifying it as a "no true Scotsman" dodge, though.
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Jan 6, 2017 20:41
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Aeolius posted:Perhaps it would have been clearer to specify "the way libertarians use..." etc. I stand by classifying it as a "no true Scotsman" dodge, though. Well then was the USSR socialist from start to finish then, or did it stop being socialist at some point before it stopped being the USSR? Obviously in a general argumentative sense Trots use state capitalism or deformed workers state or something to talk about how awesome and socialist the revolution was and then when all the inexcusably bad stuff happened it wasn't socialist anymore but if we're trying to analyse forms then we have to say 'X is Y and not Z' or we just turn everything into a blur. If I'm chatting with a bunch of people who I believe actually know theory then I might talk about the USSR potentially being a kind of authoritarian socialism, actually existing socialism, etc and giving an in depth review of its merits and failures while theorycrafting but talking to people generally then anything that comes across as 'I want to redo the USSR without any changes' is not particularly a winning argument when discussing what a socialist state will be, and if you can't say that the USSR is socialism then what was it?
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Jan 6, 2017 21:03
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Yossarian-22 posted:Also, much of what we call American imperialism doesn't fit the strictly academic definition of imperialism but "neo-colonialism" or w/e. It's not like we have settlers in these various countries where we have military bases, nor are they part of our "empire" in any official capacity You most certainly do have settlers in those countries where you have military bases. For example in Germany they've been there since WWII to stave off the ~communist threat~ and even today there's enough US nationals in one place to open up a loving Chili's just for them. US military bases are not "officially" part of the US Empire? What?
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Jan 6, 2017 21:10
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Odobenidae posted:You most certainly do have settlers in those countries where you have military bases. For example in Germany they've been there since WWII to stave off the ~communist threat~ and even today there's enough US nationals in one place to open up a loving Chili's just for them. Again, not in an "official" capacity in the same way that the Philippines was a formal colony, nor in the same way that African countries were European colonies. I'm just saying that people get hung up over the semantics and minutiae of "imperialism" so much that many will still look at you like you're crazy for referring to the United States as "imperialist" or "an empire" I think that's wrong, of course. But then again I think dodging the fact of Soviet imperialism is also disingenuous for similar reasons
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Jan 6, 2017 21:40
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Segmentation Fault posted:Antifa: Whining Online and Torturing Disabled Adutls What's this about now?
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Jan 6, 2017 21:54
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GunnerJ posted:What's this about now? Yeah, they're more of a "get rear end kicked when overwhelmingly outnumbering opposition" type of group.
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Jan 6, 2017 22:00
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GunnerJ posted:What's this about now? I'm honestly not sure you'll want to know. It's bad.
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Jan 6, 2017 22:10
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Yossarian-22 posted:Again, not in an "official" capacity in the same way that the Philippines was a formal colony, nor in the same way that African countries were European colonies. I'm just saying that people get hung up over the semantics and minutiae of "imperialism" so much that many will still look at you like you're crazy for referring to the United States as "imperialist" or "an empire" That's fair, even here there are plenty of people who think that for the US to be imperialist they would have to actually annex other countries as territory. I mistook your position there. 
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Jan 6, 2017 22:19
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GunnerJ posted:What's this about now? random people torturing innocent people are antifa now MizPiz posted:Yeah, they're more of a "get rear end kicked when overwhelmingly outnumbering opposition" type of group. Might have something to do with who the police are protecting.
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Jan 6, 2017 22:28
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-KY88OD874
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Jan 6, 2017 23:47
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ThaumPenguin posted:I'm honestly not sure you'll want to know. 
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Jan 7, 2017 00:09
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I thought that was a white supremacist group?
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Jan 7, 2017 00:23
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Impermanent posted:I thought that was a white supremacist group? antifa are like punk rocker anarchists that counterprotest fascist rallys and fight cops and nazis
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Jan 7, 2017 00:31
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jarofpiss posted:antifa are like punk rocker anarchists that counterprotest fascist rallys and fight cops and nazis SHARPs are part of skinhead culture and skinheads are often lumped into neonazis so people can get confused
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Jan 7, 2017 00:51
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Segmentation Fault posted:SHARPs are part of skinhead culture and skinheads are often lumped into neonazis so people can get confused the scientific term is bonehead
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Jan 7, 2017 00:55
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COMRADES note my new symbol! RISE UP WORKERS of the world
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Jan 7, 2017 01:51
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the skilled workers of this era are mostly libertarianish, computer peeps, IT workers so, uh, congrats? a 'worker revolution' becomes less likely with every job loss to automation.
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Jan 7, 2017 01:52
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modern marxism must be inherently luddite
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Jan 7, 2017 01:53
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can you imagine it? the future, no more jobs. Robots do all the work in the world. and in our society thats a BAD THING hahahahahahahahahahahaaahaha the truth is ya never had a chance
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Jan 7, 2017 01:53
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Baloogan posted:the skilled workers of this era are mostly libertarianish, computer peeps, IT workers I mean I work in computer guy land and the landscape is changing pretty rapidly. Not everyone is a libertarian Also for every automated job there's an angry unemployed worker and a little more super profits for the expropriating.
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Jan 7, 2017 01:54
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Like either the rich kill/enslave us all or we jump right to fully automated communism
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Jan 7, 2017 01:55
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Imagine if everyone worked in a sewer. Maybe we would huff enough of everyone else's farts to think that communism is anti-technology.
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Jan 7, 2017 02:03
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Odobenidae posted:Imagine if everyone worked in a sewer. Maybe we would huff enough of everyone else's farts to think that communism is anti-technology. lol yes that right channel the hate for the workers. maybe you should try Capitalism Plus!
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Jan 7, 2017 02:19
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Baloogan posted:can you imagine it? the future, no more jobs. Robots do all the work in the world. gotta change our society dude
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Jan 7, 2017 02:23
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yeah, I think we should expect that we're going to hit 0 employment in 50 years and that we need to get off of this "self worth from work" thing. And minincome. I dunno the economics, but we need to take the big money and give it to the little people to spend on anything they want. We should subsiidide massive farms to make free food for everyone. a good breakfast lunch and dinner in every schools in america. meat for everyone!
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Jan 7, 2017 02:26
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self driving transportation will kill off 30% of the work economy and force a real reassesment of how we assign people's value in society based on trade/income or it will force revolution. fishmech disagrees.
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Jan 7, 2017 02:29
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Baloogan posted:yeah, I think we should expect that we're going to hit 0 employment in 50 years and that we need to get off of this "self worth from work" thing. And minincome. I dunno the economics, but we need to take the big money and give it to the little people to spend on anything they want. We should subsiidide massive farms to make free food for everyone. a good breakfast lunch and dinner in every schools in america. meat for everyone! Sounds like socialism pal
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Jan 7, 2017 02:32
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Fiction posted:Sounds like socialism pal Baloogan posted:im a socialist
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Jan 7, 2017 02:38
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Baloogan posted:lol yes that right channel the hate for the workers. maybe you should try Capitalism Plus! "The workers" are not shitposting in our sacred marxism thread. Only irony and fart huffing combined can produce that. (see: D&D)
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Jan 7, 2017 02:55
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Baloogan posted:the skilled workers of this era are mostly libertarianish, computer peeps, IT workers Yeah it's not like the vast majority of people being unemployed won't have consequences! In the battle of the IT tech nerds and blue collar rednecks I'm gonna bet on the rednecks everytime.
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Jan 7, 2017 03:32
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Also lol bitch who are you kidding! You are as hosed as the rest of us when Godking Zuckerberg decides he needs more hydrogen gas from the Jupiter mines
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Jan 7, 2017 03:35
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When Sewer maintenance is automated, Baloogan can always move to China for a white monkey job.
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Jan 7, 2017 04:01
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either the fully automated production system is owned collectively, in which case congratulations, you've got a technoutopian communist society where the necessary labor time for reproducing everyone's stand of living is extremely low or it's not, in which case why do the rich not just let all the useless people die, or why do the masses not rise up and seize the robot factories
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Jan 7, 2017 04:27
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deadgoon posted:either the fully automated production system is owned collectively, in which case congratulations, you've got a technoutopian communist society where the necessary labor time for reproducing everyone's stand of living is extremely low the armies of automated weapons systems I guess
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Jan 7, 2017 04:30
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deadgoon posted:either the fully automated production system is owned collectively, in which case congratulations, you've got a technoutopian communist society where the necessary labor time for reproducing everyone's stand of living is extremely low is this what terminator was about? i don't remember
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Jan 7, 2017 04:33
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sovern self replicating war machines locked in eternal conflict is totally our future
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Jan 7, 2017 04:33
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deadgoon posted:either the fully automated production system is owned collectively, in which case congratulations, you've got a technoutopian communist society where the necessary labor time for reproducing everyone's stand of living is extremely low It really stretched believability for Elysium that the global masses would just accept squalid conditions, while being visibly exploited by a gated community everyone can see in the sky.
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Jan 7, 2017 04:35
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lol bet you don't even know the handshake
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Jan 7, 2017 04:37
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the hammer and sickle icon 
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Jan 7, 2017 04:56
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Karl Barks posted:the hammer and sickle icon im a registered dem but only to bring it down from the inside so i hope this doesn't out me too much!
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Jan 7, 2017 04:58
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