Roman/ancient history: Checkmate, Atenists

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HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

how many early modernists are in this thread anyway

edit: do the romans have boxwood, that poo poo holds detail very well

# ? Jan 6, 2017 19:17

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# ? May 10, 2024 10:37

fishmech: Jul 16, 2006; by VideoGames; Salad Prong

Mr Enderby posted:

I wouldn't say "unbelievably" consistent.

You make type by pouring any molten metal into moulds. It's true that early modern type foundries were able to optimise this process by tinkering around with their "type metal," using knowledge from the medieval pewter industry (antimony for sharper edges, for example). But they were stretching themselves to make the clearest and most durable type, for printing very small and complex letters. If you were happy with bigger and simpler font, I don't see why bronze wouldn't work perfectly well. If there's some reason you couldn't cast that finely with Roman techniques, there really nothing stopping you from detailing up the type by hand before printing.

Well here's the thing: small type = more words on a page = less pages needed = less expensive/more profitable printing. And that's going to be especially relevant in Roman times when the costs of your materials to print on is fairly high. If the smallest practical type you can create is too large, it forces printing to remain more of a curiosity than a mass-market usable thing.

# ? Jan 6, 2017 19:38

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

Rome had the printing press, or knew of it. Looks like a 13 year overlap even!

# ? Jan 6, 2017 19:42

Mr Enderby: Mar 28, 2015

CommonShore posted:

Part of the problem with surveying the print industry in the years after Gutenberg is that the most-produced and most-popular materials (textbooks and pamphlets and lottery tickets) were basically used to destruction, so we have few surviving witnesses.

A very fair point. But the market for high-end printed books (on vellum with hand illuminations) definitely existed.

CommonShore posted:

I can't think of many examples of commercial prestige printing in England before the subscription model of the early eighteenth century (Pope's Iliad etc.).

Depends how you classify "prestige printing". I'd argue that the famous folio collections of English dramatists (Jonson, Shakespeare, and Beaumont and Fletcher) fit that category.

CommonShore posted:

So unless printing came to Rome in some form that allowed the press to threaten the well-established scribal industry with all of its skill capital, it probably would be a wet fart.

Probably true. But that was probably true in early modern Europe without Gutenberg. The man was a bona-fide visionary. His printing press is one of those very rare examples of an invention coming out of the gates fully formed. The technology didn't change that much from 1550 to the mid-nineteenth century. Bear in mind that as far as we know, he either developed or oversaw the development of type-metal, improved printing ink, and paper suitable for printing. So it wasn't a case of an invention springing from earlier developments. As far as we can tell Gutenberg imagined an entirely new branch of technology, and set about making it reality. I don't believe that a similarly monomaniac Roman couldn't have done the same.

I realise none of this is really on topic, but drat I like talking about early modern printing.

# ? Jan 6, 2017 19:46

Mr Enderby: Mar 28, 2015

fishmech posted:

Well here's the thing: small type = more words on a page = less pages needed = less expensive/more profitable printing. And that's going to be especially relevant in Roman times when the costs of your materials to print on is fairly high. If the smallest practical type you can create is too large, it forces printing to remain more of a curiosity than a mass-market usable thing.

Honestly, when you look at the type used in early printed books, which is very fiddly and designed to look like it was drawn with a pen, and compare it to how clear Roman stone engraving is, i think that you could make bronze Roman type which was as legible as type-metal blackletter, without having to make it any bigger.

# ? Jan 6, 2017 19:55

PittTheElder: Feb 13, 2012; Yes, it's like a lava lamp.

euphronius posted:

Rome had the printing press, or knew of it. Looks like a 13 year overlap even!

# ? Jan 6, 2017 19:58

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

Mr Enderby posted:

Depends how you classify "prestige printing". I'd argue that the famous folio collections of English dramatists (Jonson, Shakespeare, and Beaumont and Fletcher) fit that category.

Good catch. The Spenser folio really stands out as a prestige volume to me. Even there, they weren't printed on vellum, though (not that Pope was, either.)

Mr Enderby posted:

Probably true. But that was probably true in early modern Europe without Gutenberg. The man was a bona-fide visionary. His printing press is one of those very rare examples of an invention coming out of the gates fully formed. The technology didn't change that much from 1550 to the mid-nineteenth century. Bear in mind that as far as we know, he either developed or oversaw the development of type-metal, improved printing ink, and paper suitable for printing. So it wasn't a case of an invention springing from earlier developments. As far as we can tell Gutenberg imagined an entirely new branch of technology, and set about making it reality. I don't believe that a similarly monomaniac Roman couldn't have done the same.

One other point which I'm not sure how to integrate into this whole line of thought is that Gutenberg basically died bankrupt. I've read interesting discussion of how Gutenberg's engineering was crucial, but that the real credit for figuring out how print works as a medium should go to other fifteenth-century printers, particularly those working in Venice and Italy. Gutenberg's work often looks like he's trying to mechanically reproduce manuscripts, and doing bad reproductions of things that manuscript does well (rubrication, for example), whereas these others actually figured out better methods for developing printed books.

(and I have none of these essays anywhere near to at hand anymore, I'm sad to say - it's from brilliant chaps like David Carlson and Randall McLeod)

Mr Enderby posted:

I realise none of this is really on topic, but drat I like talking about early modern printing.

It's the best.

# ? Jan 6, 2017 20:02

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

Mr Enderby posted:

Honestly, when you look at the type used in early printed books, which is very fiddly and designed to look like it was drawn with a pen, and compare it to how clear Roman stone engraving is, i think that you could make bronze Roman type which was as legible as type-metal blackletter, without having to make it any bigger.

That is a good point - and one of the things that these "other" printers figured out early on (as I mentioned in my other post). They actually modeled their typefaces on Roman sculptural faces, whereas Gutenberg's blackletter was modeled on manuscript conventions. It turns out that the best practices for print are closer to sculpture than they are to manuscript.

Mind that Gutenberg's work was trying to "be" manuscript rather than to "replace" it, which is part of this whole ambiguity.

# ? Jan 6, 2017 20:06

Mr Enderby: Mar 28, 2015

euphronius posted:

Rome had the printing press, or knew of it. Looks like a 13 year overlap even!

Ha, fair play.

CommonShore posted:

(and I have none of these essays anywhere near to at hand anymore, I'm sad to say - it's from brilliant chaps like David Carlson and Randall McLeod)

Randall McLeod is the best.

# ? Jan 6, 2017 20:16

Friar John: Aug 3, 2007; Saint Francis be my speed! how oft to-night
Have my old feet stumbled at graves!

Ofaloaf posted:

So the Roman-period kings of Britain would then be... just an under-king under the Roman emperor/over-king?

Honestly what's really throwing me for a loop is the story of King Lucius and the introduction of Christianity to Britain in the 2nd century. How could Geoffrey, Nennius, Gildas & co. reconcile the idea of Britain becoming officially Christian two centuries-or-so before Constantine, while being part of the Roman Empire? The story of all the early Christian martyrs was fairly popular and well-know as far I can tell, so surely they knew the the Empire itself was still pagan and persecuting. How is that supposed to gel with the idea that even (lesser?) kings went Christian in Roman Britain at the same time without them all being overthrown/obliterated by the Romans?

I'm just overthinking myths, aren't I.

One thing to keep in mind for the Gildas stuff, and the Welsh historical consciousness before really Nennius, is that they're projecting Insular Celtic mythic modes on Roman history. Nennius has a chronology, he has continental sources that give dates for various things. Gildas didn't. Gildas did have some historical documents (the letter to Aetius, for one, in which he misinterprets some phrasings), but he, even for writing ~150 years after the withdrawal, really does not know how the Romans governed Britain. He knows they *did*, but the institutional form of that was muddied with contemporary British governance, with its sub- and over-kings.

As for the persecution, in Gildas the second Roman invasion happens before any Christianization. "These rays of light [from Christ] were received with lukewarm minds by the inhabitants, but they nevertheless took root among some of them in a greater or less degree, until the nine years' persecution of the tyrant Diocletian," (II.9)

# ? Jan 6, 2017 21:37

Arglebargle III: Feb 21, 2006

This is a boring answer but improved hull design. There's nothing stopping the Romans from building a 15th century caravel in terms of materials technology.

# ? Jan 6, 2017 22:32

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

Arglebargle III posted:

This is a boring answer but improved hull design. There's nothing stopping the Romans from building a 15th century caravel in terms of materials technology.

I can't refute it or challenge it at first reflection.

That's a good answer. Triremes and galleys suck rear end.

# ? Jan 6, 2017 22:53

PittTheElder: Feb 13, 2012; Yes, it's like a lava lamp.

Galleys are really good in the Med though. The most famous galley action in history took place in 1571.

# ? Jan 6, 2017 23:25

Jazerus: May 24, 2011

I think the obvious answer here is whiskey, newspapers, and semaphore.

# ? Jan 6, 2017 23:26

Teriyaki Hairpiece: Dec 29, 2006; I'm nae the voice o' the darkened thistle, but th' darkened thistle cannae bear the sight o' our Bonnie Prince Bernie nae mair.

You could probably teach the ancient Romans the term theory of disease if you tried hard enough, they weren't morons. They'd probably just fit it into their many superstitions, like we do.

# ? Jan 6, 2017 23:27

Benagain: Oct 10, 2007; Can you see that I am serious?; Fun Shoe

Was it them who had that ritual where they would stage a ceremony to impress the spirit of a city with how awesome they were and how much better worshippers they would be then the lamos in the wall?

# ? Jan 6, 2017 23:37

sullat: Jan 9, 2012

Benagain posted:

Was it them who had that ritual where they would stage a ceremony to impress the spirit of a city with how awesome they were and how much better worshippers they would be then the lamos in the wall?

Yeah, they would try to impress the besieged city's gods with their piety so they would withdraw their protection of it.

# ? Jan 7, 2017 01:58

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

the only thing that would make this more romans.txt is if it involved a legal contract

# ? Jan 7, 2017 02:13

Jamwad Hilder: Apr 18, 2007; surfin usa

I would teach the romans about electric guitar and the legions musical corps could maybe play metal to intimidate the enemies i dunno

# ? Jan 7, 2017 04:30

Jamwad Hilder: Apr 18, 2007; surfin usa

do the legions lose at Cannae if they advance to Slayer's "Raining Blood"? I say no

# ? Jan 7, 2017 04:33

Grand Fromage: Jan 30, 2006; L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?

Jazerus posted:

newspapers, and semaphore.

The news did get around, wasn't exactly newspapers but the postal service and guys shouting about True Roman Bread for True Romans did a pretty good job. The Romans did have a semaphore-like system using torches on a little sawhorse looking thing that you'd move up and down in code, and there's the other system with the tube of water and floating flag that you could move to signal.

Jamwad Hilder posted:

do the legions lose at Cannae if they advance to Slayer's "Raining Blood"? I say no

VAE VICTIS

# ? Jan 7, 2017 08:39

Grand Fromage: Jan 30, 2006; L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?

Which ancient army would be most likely to listen to Slayer: Roman, Qin, or Assyrian?

# ? Jan 7, 2017 08:41

Teriyaki Hairpiece: Dec 29, 2006; I'm nae the voice o' the darkened thistle, but th' darkened thistle cannae bear the sight o' our Bonnie Prince Bernie nae mair.

Grand Fromage posted:

Which ancient army would be most likely to listen to Slayer: Roman, Qin, or Assyrian?

Assyrian, without a doubt.

# ? Jan 7, 2017 10:56

Kassad: Nov 12, 2005; It's about time.

quote:

The band's lyrics and album art, which cover topics such as murder, serial killers, necrophilia, torture, genocide, human experimentation, Satanism, hate crimes, terrorism, religion, antireligion, Nazism, and warfare

... Yeah, I'm voting for the Assyrians too.

# ? Jan 7, 2017 11:27

Teriyaki Hairpiece: Dec 29, 2006; I'm nae the voice o' the darkened thistle, but th' darkened thistle cannae bear the sight o' our Bonnie Prince Bernie nae mair.

I actually hesitated in saying the Assyrians because I wasn't sure Slayer was metal enough for their behavior.

# ? Jan 7, 2017 12:24

Grand Fromage: Jan 30, 2006; L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?

Yeah including Assyrians may have been a gimme answer.

# ? Jan 7, 2017 12:24

Dalael: Oct 14, 2014; Hello. Yep, I still think Atlantis is Bolivia, yep, I'm still a giant idiot, yep, I'm still a huge racist. Some things never change!

Grand Fromage posted:

The news did get around, wasn't exactly newspapers but the postal service and guys shouting about True Roman Bread for True Romans did a pretty good job. The Romans did have a semaphore-like system using torches on a little sawhorse looking thing that you'd move up and down in code, and there's the other system with the tube of water and floating flag that you could move to signal.

VAE VICTIS

Can you elaborate on those two systems or point me in the right direction to learn more about these?

# ? Jan 7, 2017 12:32

Grand Fromage: Jan 30, 2006; L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?

Dalael posted:

Can you elaborate on those two systems or point me in the right direction to learn more about these?

This is a fantastically ugly site but the descriptions are accurate to what I've seen. http://www.romanobritain.org/8-military/mil_signalling_systems.htm

# ? Jan 7, 2017 12:37

Kassad: Nov 12, 2005; It's about time.

Grand Fromage posted:

Yeah including Assyrians may have been a gimme answer.

I think the Qin army would have been my second choice. It's the thing about fighting for the (future) conqueror and divine ruler of the known world that does it.

# ? Jan 7, 2017 12:48

Teriyaki Hairpiece: Dec 29, 2006; I'm nae the voice o' the darkened thistle, but th' darkened thistle cannae bear the sight o' our Bonnie Prince Bernie nae mair.

Grand Fromage posted:

Yeah including Assyrians may have been a gimme answer.

Match the ancient Near Eastern people to the genre of 20th century music:

1. Glam rock
2. Prog rock
3. Rap rock
4. Grunge
5. British Invasion

A. Chaldeans
B. Elamites
C. Medes
D. Kassites
E. Hurrians

1-C, 2-B, 3-E, 4-A, 5-D

# ? Jan 7, 2017 13:00

Jerusalem: May 20, 2004; Would you be my new best friends?

If I could go back in time I wouldn't bring any futuristic technology, I'd just establish a solid reputation as a soothsayer, then plant myself in the market on Julius Caesar's path to the Senate House and warn him to be careful around the Ides of March.

# ? Jan 7, 2017 14:12

Comstar: Apr 20, 2007; Are you happy now?

Jerusalem posted:

If I could go back in time I wouldn't bring any futuristic technology, I'd just establish a solid reputation as a soothsayer, then plant myself in the market on Julius Caesar's path to the Senate House and warn him to be careful around the Ides of March.

You already did that- you gave him a note and he didn't read it.

# ? Jan 7, 2017 14:31

Dalael: Oct 14, 2014; Hello. Yep, I still think Atlantis is Bolivia, yep, I'm still a giant idiot, yep, I'm still a huge racist. Some things never change!

Jerusalem posted:

If I could go back in time I wouldn't bring any futuristic technology, I'd just establish a solid reputation as a soothsayer, then plant myself in the market on Julius Caesar's path to the Senate House and warn him to be careful around the Ides of March.

I'm not so sure this would be such a great idea. If successful, it would prevent or at the very least delay Octavian's rule.

# ? Jan 7, 2017 14:31

skasion: Feb 13, 2012; Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

They picked the right time to kill Caesar imo. Parthian/Persian campaigns were invariably a massively expensive boondoggle, Crassus and Antony both had enormous failed campaigns that didn't yield a scrap of land or gold at the cost of thousands of lives and all the baggage (and a number of eagles) just a few years on other side of Caesar's death. Even ignoring the problems of actually conquering the place, since if anyone could accomplish that Caesar probably had a good shot at it, Persian heartland was just too far away to effectively rule from Rome. Trajan and Septimius Severus both managed to conquer Ctesiphon but neither was able to hold it for very long. It cost money to hold it but didn't give money back because it couldn't be developed as a tax-paying province. I don't see how Caesar could have solved this problem.

# ? Jan 7, 2017 15:19

Monocled Falcon: Oct 30, 2011

On another forum, a poster made an intriguing claim I'd like to have double-checked by the more qualified experts in this thread.

The paraphrased version is that Roman discipline was not the quiet professionalism of modern day armies. Discipline was important, but being a bloodthirsty glory-hound mattered more.

His closing statement was exactly "in truth Romans always saw Virtus and Ferrox as chief in importance over Disciplina."

# ? Jan 7, 2017 16:42

Jazerus: May 24, 2011

Grand Fromage posted:

The news did get around, wasn't exactly newspapers but the postal service and guys shouting about True Roman Bread for True Romans did a pretty good job. The Romans did have a semaphore-like system using torches on a little sawhorse looking thing that you'd move up and down in code, and there's the other system with the tube of water and floating flag that you could move to signal.

VAE VICTIS

My post was a reference to Lest Darkness Fall :ssh:

# ? Jan 7, 2017 17:35

Elyv: Jun 14, 2013

Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:

Match the ancient Near Eastern people to the genre of 20th century music:

1. Glam rock
2. Prog rock
3. Rap rock
4. Grunge
5. British Invasion

A. Chaldeans
B. Elamites
C. Medes
D. Kassites
E. Hurrians

1-C, 2-B, 3-E, 4-A, 5-D

Hold up.

British Invasion is a music genre?

# ? Jan 7, 2017 18:29

fishmech: Jul 16, 2006; by VideoGames; Salad Prong

Elyv posted:

Hold up.

British Invasion is a music genre?

Yeah you know, the early Beatles, early Rolling Stones, the Troggs.

# ? Jan 7, 2017 18:44

the JJ: Mar 31, 2011

Monocled Falcon posted:

On another forum, a poster made an intriguing claim I'd like to have double-checked by the more qualified experts in this thread.

The paraphrased version is that Roman discipline was not the quiet professionalism of modern day armies. Discipline was important, but being a bloodthirsty glory-hound mattered more.

His closing statement was exactly "in truth Romans always saw Virtus and Ferrox as chief in importance over Disciplina."

Basically any broad statement about "the Romans did X" or ""the Romans felt Y" is too broad to be useful. You've got a tremendous time period to cover, and even contemporaneous Romans bitched at each other about what proper behavior was.

That said, if you're looking at specific cases, Caesar records, for instance, a few of his veterans who were trying to out-do each other. There's admiration there, but also an acknowledgement that their glory-hounding put them both in danger. He seems unconcerned with discouraging glory seeking, more often he mentions offering rewards (both honorary and economic) for folks willing to be the first over the battlements, stuff like that.

# ? Jan 7, 2017 22:10

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# ? May 10, 2024 10:37

Teriyaki Hairpiece: Dec 29, 2006; I'm nae the voice o' the darkened thistle, but th' darkened thistle cannae bear the sight o' our Bonnie Prince Bernie nae mair.

Elyv posted:

Hold up.

British Invasion is a music genre?

I was stretching the genre for a joke: Kassites were funny talking foreign invaders who nevertheless ruled for a very long time, just as I expect The Beatles to be popular for a while.

# ? Jan 7, 2017 22:38

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