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If you're not expending real effort* towards fighting the problems of racism (including the passive kind) and white privilege, then you are part of the problem. *wearing a safety pin or retweeting the occasional #blm tweet is not real effort.
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Jan 7, 2017 00:45
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Gringostar posted:Yes all white people and men. Unironically. White People and Men are responsible for the construction of the houses that are Institutional Racism and Sexism. While people of colour and women can show you how fundamentally flawed and immoral the houses are, it's the responsibility of men and white people to tear them down. Anything less than active opposition is support to the status quo.
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Jan 7, 2017 00:50
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HotCanadianChick posted:If you're not expending real effort* towards fighting the problems of racism (including the passive kind) and white privilege, then you are part of the problem. Maluco Marinero posted:Unironically. White People and Men are responsible for the construction of the houses that are Institutional Racism and Sexism. While people of colour and women can show you how fundamentally flawed and immoral the houses are, it's the responsibility of men and white people to tear them down. Anything less than active opposition is support to the status quo. As somebody who totally accepts the reality of white/male privilege, tries to educate themselves and understand the struggle of those who had such fewer opportunities than myself, and is vocal in a constructive way (or so I thought) about race/gender equality... what the gently caress? I understand anger against people that just tag along for some kind of superficial social-media points (is that what's going on here?), but these posts hardly seem constructive. I know just because 'racist Bob still makes friend of the family jokes' doesn't mean you should accept some half-assed "yeah racism is a bummer" sentiment, but this kind of poo poo is going to push away people who could just as easily become more educated in the fight for a better tomorrow. Just because somebody hasn't totally articulated their understanding and approach to these issues fully doesn't mean they never can, and I don't see how you could think an accusational tone of this degree is going to be constructive. *edit* See: how to get somebody to go from "I can be racist/sexist just like anybody, and I need to do my best to fix it" to "I guess I'll have to learn to be comfortable as a monstrous white misogynist" BRJurgis fucked around with this message at 01:16 on Jan 7, 2017 |
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Jan 7, 2017 01:13
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BRJohnson posted:As somebody who totally accepts the reality of white/male privilege, tries to educate themselves and understand the struggle of those who had such fewer opportunities than myself, and is vocal in a constructive way (or so I thought) about race/gender equality... what the gently caress? I understand anger against people that just tag along for some kind of superficial social-media points (is that what's going on here?), but these posts hardly seem constructive. I know just because 'racist Bob still makes friend of the family jokes' doesn't mean you should accept some half-assed "yeah racism is a bummer" sentiment, but this kind of poo poo is going to push away people who could just as easily become more educated in the fight for a better tomorrow. Just because somebody hasn't totally articulated their understanding and approach to these issues fully doesn't mean they never can, and I don't see how you could think an accusational tone of this degree is going to be constructive. If a few words on the internet is all it takes for one to do a complete 180 and not care anymore, then they might want to go back and reexamine how committed they were to anti-racism from the start.
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Jan 7, 2017 01:24
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BRJohnson posted:
If random strangers on the internet not handling your feelings with kid-gloves is enough to make you give up trying not to be racist... You were probably not trying that hard to begin with Edit: also this is hosed up because it all comes back to the collective punishment of minorities. Where all individuals are held accountable for the crimes (real or perceived) other people committed. Are you really going to begrudge an entire population of their rights and basic human dignity because someone was critical of you on the internet? 420 Gank Mid fucked around with this message at 01:34 on Jan 7, 2017 |
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Jan 7, 2017 01:27
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blackguy32 posted:If a few words on the internet is all it takes for one to do a complete 180 and not care anymore, then they might want to go back and reexamine how committed they were to anti-racism from the start. "GOD those black people were so rude about all white people" *changes browser tab* "Why are black people so rude and uncultured?"
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Jan 7, 2017 01:27
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blackguy32 posted:If a few words on the internet is all it takes for one to do a complete 180 and not care anymore, then they might want to go back and reexamine how committed they were to anti-racism from the start. Pretty much, if you interpret that as aggressive you misinterpret, and we're probably not much of a fence sitter to begin with. It's just the facts, men and white people built this system. It is impossible to fix a problem without owning and acknowledging it. I can't remove my privilege, I'm white and male and that's the hand I was dealt. But I have to acknowledge that it's not right that I have this privilege while others are denied it for arbitrary reasons, and that my actions should work towards elevating the privilege of others, even if it comes at my expense, in fact, ESPECIALLY at my expense.
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Jan 7, 2017 01:32
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Maluco Marinero posted:Pretty much, if you interpret that as aggressive you misinterpret, and we're probably not much of a fence sitter to begin with. It's just the facts, men and white people built this system. It is impossible to fix a problem without owning and acknowledging it. I wish I could add more to this very good post than just responding with "this", but this. White people and males are more inclined to be the problem than anyone else simply because they benefit the most from society because they instituted the racism and sexism that is ingrained into that society, and as such they are less inclined to think there is a problem to begin.
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Jan 7, 2017 01:38
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If I take out the last part of my previous post, will you guys respond to the rest of it? I'm not trying to start a big argument in this thread I've never posted in before, and I can just, ya know, leave... but I'd like to hear what people have to say about my post and the two preceding it.Gringostar posted:I wish I could add more to this very good post than just responding with "this", but this. I enthusiastically agree with this. BRJurgis fucked around with this message at 01:43 on Jan 7, 2017 |
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Jan 7, 2017 01:38
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Staying it's not constructive is a fair point.
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Jan 7, 2017 01:41
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BRJohnson posted:If I take out the last part of my previous post, will you guys respond to the rest of it? I'm not trying to start a big argument in this thread I've never posted in before, and I can just, ya know, leave... but I'd like to hear what people have to say about my post and the two preceding it. There was already a response to your post written in april of 63.
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Jan 7, 2017 01:42
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BRJohnson posted:If I take out the last part of my previous post, will you guys respond to the rest of it? I'm not trying to start a big argument in this thread I've never posted in before, and I can just, ya know, leave... but I'd like to hear what people have to say about my post and the two preceding it. Your post was nothing but a tone argument and tone arguments are horseshit. Everything HCC and Maluco said were completely accurate and they shouldn't have to keep quiet about it in order to protect your feelings.
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Jan 7, 2017 01:58
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BRJohnson posted:As somebody who totally accepts the reality of white/male privilege, tries to educate themselves and understand the struggle of those who had such fewer opportunities than myself, and is vocal in a constructive way (or so I thought) about race/gender equality... what the gently caress? I understand anger against people that just tag along for some kind of superficial social-media points (is that what's going on here?), but these posts hardly seem constructive. I know just because 'racist Bob still makes friend of the family jokes' doesn't mean you should accept some half-assed "yeah racism is a bummer" sentiment, but this kind of poo poo is going to push away people who could just as easily become more educated in the fight for a better tomorrow. Just because somebody hasn't totally articulated their understanding and approach to these issues fully doesn't mean they never can, and I don't see how you could think an accusational tone of this degree is going to be constructive. social justice has never been and will never be won through polite, even-handed education of the oppressors.
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Jan 7, 2017 02:06
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BRJohnson posted:If I take out the last part of my previous post, will you guys respond to the rest of it? I'm not trying to start a big argument in this thread I've never posted in before, and I can just, ya know, leave... but I'd like to hear what people have to say about my post and the two preceding it. the post you got mad at posted:Unironically. White People and Men are responsible for the construction of the houses that are Institutional Racism and Sexism. While people of colour and women can show you how fundamentally flawed and immoral the houses are, it's the responsibility of men and white people to tear them down. Anything less than active opposition is support to the status quo. your post posted:what the gently caress? I understand anger against people that just tag along for some kind of superficial social-media points (is that what's going on here?), but these posts hardly seem constructive. I know just because 'racist Bob still makes friend of the family jokes' doesn't mean you should accept some half-assed "yeah racism is a bummer" sentiment, but this kind of poo poo is going to push away people who could just as easily become more educated in the fight for a better tomorrow. Just because somebody hasn't totally articulated their understanding and approach to these issues fully doesn't mean they never can, and I don't see how you could think an accusational tone of this degree is going to be constructive. You getting peeved off and taking it as some sort of personal slight that someone dared state the fact that modern systems of oppression were built purposefully by white men, and in turn can only be completely destroyed by those who created and/or benefited from it. Martin Luther King Jr. did not sign the civil rights act into law, an overwhelmingly white and male congress did. These barriers were designed and have been used effectively for centuries to keep marginalized groups far away from the levers of power in our society. When you have spent your whole life (knowingly or unknowingly) reaping the rewards of this system. Then turn around and say that someone who has been victimized by that same system is being unreasonable, aggressive, or dismissive of you, quite literally criticizing the tone of their argument and not its substance. You are not coming off as the enlightened humanist you claim to be. You're coming off as a concern trolling idiot who thinks that they have the answers to all of colored folks' problems and if only they would listen to the clever white man we'd be much better off for it. 420 Gank Mid fucked around with this message at 02:14 on Jan 7, 2017 |
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Jan 7, 2017 02:09
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Something I've noticed regarding Somethingawful board culture: SA is among the more outspoken message boards when it comes to speaking out against pedophilia. People that promote, rationalize, or defend it are sharply ostracized and banned. Previous tolerance of it ("Mods knew" meme, Frontpage content ) are seen as shameful and bad. So there's this understanding that the board culture doesn't tolerate it and a poster that condones it will be run out. People also don't get away with talking about it ironically either. This isn't necessarily because most goons have children: I'd argue the majority on SA don't. And not everybody themselves was molested or necessarily knew someone that was. So at this point, most goons are sharing these opinions about it out of empathy and justice. Supposedly. Here's where it gets turned on its head. Replace 'pedophilia' with 'racism' and its a different story. You can be racist shitheel and goons will tolerate it, defend it, rationalize it, and turn on the person of color speaking out. It's the same story with sexism as well. Goons like to feel good about themselves by contrasting themselves with egregious imgur or reddit posts but that's really like bragging about being the world's tallest midget here. We don't have a down vote system, but that doesn't stop people from getting reported and red texted for wrongthink in board culture. Goons can't seem to apply the same rancor they have against underage anime waifus for actual racism and sexism on the boards. Which makes me question the sincerity they have for the former. The cynic in me feels like taking an 'anti pedophile' stance on SA is popular not because its a decent attitude to have about the subject but because it's a safe opinion to have right now. Speaking out about racists and sexists, to the average white cis poster, risks being on the wrong side of the argument since the board culture isn't as strongly against racism and sexism.
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Jan 7, 2017 05:22
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Panfilo posted:Something I've noticed regarding Somethingawful board culture: this post is brilliant, thank you Panfilo
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Jan 7, 2017 05:32
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BRJohnson posted:If I take out the last part of my previous post, will you guys respond to the rest of it? I'm not trying to start a big argument in this thread I've never posted in before, and I can just, ya know, leave... but I'd like to hear what people have to say about my post and the two preceding it. I'll make this really easy for you: Black people are the victims of white society. Black people might point out how white society has victimized them, but it is in no way the black community's job to carefully hold white people's hands through fixing their fuckups. It is the job of the victimizer to knock it off, not of the victim to somehow through meekness and polite explanation magically make their abuse go away. Would you tell a woman to "just stop walking into doors" if she told you "please stop beating me every day?" Hell no. The white people basically beat down black people every single day and then when black people say "please stop hurting us" white people get all bent out of shape that the black people spoke up and insist that black people coach them on precisely how to fix white people's racism.
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Jan 7, 2017 05:57
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:I'll make this really easy for you: And the funny thing is, it's REALLY REALLY easy to not be a racist or sexist. Somehow white people cant get it in their heads to treat minorities with the same respect and decency they treat other white people, and not tolerate people who don't. It's really easy to not be sexist. Don't tolerate sexism from others and treat people the way I myself want to be treated.
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Jan 7, 2017 07:29
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And while it's important that allies realize that it's not the responsibility of the oppressed to gently lead them down the path of not being bigoted shitheads, the simple truth is ]there are a poo poo ton of people who are willing to loving do that regardless. It's that old truism about if everyone you meet is an rear end in a top hat, then the rear end in a top hat was probably you all along. If you've never had someone willing to walk you through it gently then you've either always barreled into a conversation like an entitled jerk, or the subject itself makes you uncomfortable and you're claiming the messengers are just being mean about it so you don't have to face up to your own issues.
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Jan 7, 2017 09:05
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there wolf posted:
The Larry David priciple
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Jan 7, 2017 09:13
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there wolf posted:And while it's important that allies realize that it's not the responsibility of the oppressed to gently lead them down the path of not being bigoted shitheads, the simple truth is there are a poo poo ton of people who are willing to loving do that regardless. And there it is.
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Jan 7, 2017 10:00
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Panfilo posted:Something I've noticed regarding Somethingawful board culture: I have nothing really to add but I totally agree.
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Jan 7, 2017 10:02
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420 Gank Mid posted:
This is the main problem with talking about this stuff. The other side perceives it as a baseless personal attack against them specifically. "HEY! I'M NOT A RACIST! HOW DARE YOU CALL ME A RACIST."
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Jan 7, 2017 10:08
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Panfilo posted:Something I've noticed regarding Somethingawful board culture: So SA is simply a loose microcosm of America in general? Good to know. Also, nice post. Also explains why it seems like all of D&D's black posters had to be segregated into their two threads due to the poo poo they were getting elsewhere (this was back when the USPOL thread was a thing).
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Jan 7, 2017 10:10
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HotCanadianChick posted:If you're not expending real effort* towards fighting the problems of racism (including the passive kind) and white privilege, then you are part of the problem. What is your real effort?
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Jan 7, 2017 11:05
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What I read from posts like the one quoted both above and in my post is that you/I am part of the problem for being a white man (I am actually a white man IRL full disclosure). Maybe it's just an unfortunate series of posts that give it this feeling? I wish I could take my personal experiences and the words "I" and "me" out of my statements so as not to be seen as having some sort of a tantrum, but I don't know how to articulate my point any other way. Ultimately this isn't about me anyway, because I'm going to keep doing my thing out there whether or not I feel I've been slighted by people on the internet (I don't, I've only failed to put it into words correctly). Which brings me to my point I guess. I think the argument of tone is absolutely important, especially because people above have expressed that only white men can fix the problems discussed here. Let me tell you what I do to fight racism and sexism. Beyond treating everybody with respect no matter their race/gender (which should just be part of being a human on Earth), I try to educate myself and speak with everybody about these issues. Everybody! The biggest problem I have with the kind of arguments I quoted is that it shuts down any kind of conversation with a lot of people right off the bat. So some white woman who voted for Trump may to you be a bad person (you could ague that by the effect of her actions she is), I speak with her and guess what? She agrees with me about the most important things in a general sense! Through repeated conversations I learn that she doesn't really feel so differently than me, but ignorance of history, socio/economic realities, political policies and their effects lead her to adopt the views she has/had (not to mention a purposeful and aggressive campaign of misinformation and fear-mongering that successfully divides our country along so many lines). These views can and are being changed... you(I) CAN actually educate people and change their minds! Ignorance and prejudice CAN (sometimes) be destroyed! But if one starts off a conversation with her by saying she's the loving problem with America, whether or not that's true or justified, you are drawing a line in the sand that she is not going to cross and you have gained an enemy rather than an ally. Isn't the hearts and minds of fellow Americans where the most important fight is going to be won? A multicolored march is more convincing than a mono-color one. I can't tell anyone how to feel about these issues, and I don't want to marginalize anybody's anger or frustration. I am going to sincerely say, though, that racism DOES effect everybody. I live in America and I want the future to be a place where everybody is respected and gets to share in our vast wealth. I try to make this a reality in my way, and I don't feel it's wrong to call out somebody for hurting the chance for actual harmony. I guess I hope you're not confusing saying what's true with saying things that will actually promote racial harmony. And yes, I do dispute that I am part of the problem. I'm part of the solution. All that being said, in retrospect this seems to be a thread for like-minded catharsis more than anything and is perhaps not the best place for me to be a dumb white folks apologist. I appreciate that there are places to coordinate efforts for racial/gender equality that aren't here and you're under no obligation to be an advertisement. I do believe in the words I wrote, though, and I will continue to take the actions I take every day to make things better (however insignificant)... even if people choose to tear into me after I post this. And yes, I guess in a way I did start all this after a post said I was part of the problem for being a white man (though I wasn't as salty as some of you chose to believe).
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Jan 7, 2017 17:19
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Panfilo posted:Something I've noticed regarding Somethingawful board culture: Speaking as a white male dumbass (at least on race issues), one theory comes to mind: A pedophile, to a dude like me, is a fairly abstract horrible thing. I haven't been molested, and I don't want to diddle kids, so it doesn't relate to me personally. If I know someone who has been abused, I do not know about it. So it's an easy thing to detest, since it's objectively a bad thing and hating on those people is no burden on myself, so to speak. I'm not involved. But, being a white male, I'm inherently in the racist camp. I don't mean this either that other people thinking this of me is unfair, or that I'm a neo-nazi. But that's the thing, learning about the black person's experience makes me feel bad about it, and myself. I'm pretty sure I've done plenty of racist things (and other privileged things, say towards women or gay people) without even realizing it. I'm dumb about race, and it really shows. Shameful example: It took a few posts from Tiny Brontosaurus where she spelled out the difference between saying 'blacks' and 'black people'. I'm a white dude living in northern Europe, so it doesn't automatically click for me that while 'whites' and 'white people' are both neutral to me, that really, really doesn't apply to black people in the US or elsewhere about 'blacks' vs. 'black people'. That said, I don't particularly enjoy feeling dumb, or bigoted. Even when I clearly am! Learning is a painful process, and in this case it also directly relates to both myself and my mental image of myself. Most people want to think they're 'good people' in some abstract sense, and learning the myriad of ways that I'm being terrible to other people is very  Add on to that that the other side of the table is composed of people who've been hurt many times just for the crime of being a black person / woman/ LGBT, they're understandably upset about these things. And they actually have a right to be, I don't! At least in the sense that I've ever been injured in any real way. So the difference between 'the pedophiles' and 'racists' is, in the forum conversations, that it's very easy for me to hate on the first, but it's personal and emotional for the second case. Add on top of that how well white dudes usually process their emotions internally / communicate about them, it's easy to see why there's a backlash in the racist discussion. Conscious or not! This is a lot of  to whitesplain the privileged position and I really am sorry about that, but I am risking posting this in the hopes that it at least furthers discussion.
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Jan 7, 2017 17:24
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BRJohnson posted:What I read from posts like the one quoted both above and in my post is that you/I am part of the problem for being a white man (I am actually a white man IRL full disclosure). Maybe it's just an unfortunate series of posts that give it this feeling? I wish I could take my personal experiences and the words "I" and "me" out of my statements so as not to be seen as having some sort of a tantrum, but I don't know how to articulate my point any other way. Ultimately this isn't about me anyway, because I'm going to keep doing my thing out there whether or not I feel I've been slighted by people on the internet (I don't, I've only failed to put it into words correctly). Which brings me to my point I guess. Here's the thing. It is not black people's job to be teachers, sensei, or magical negros to white people about their racism. We don't need a dialogue. A dialogue assumes that two sides of an issue need to air out grievances and come to a conclusion. That is not the case here. One side needs to stop being racist and the other needs them to stop being racist. There is no discussion. You continue to try to tone police and are basically saying that if black people would be nicer to their oppressors, then we could just work this out. Yes racism does have an effect on everybody. The problem is that it effects you positively and us with generations of income and educational gaps. You mealy mouth ooh it breaks my American spirit is bullshit and is not real struggle. You are part of the problem because you make this all about you without accepting any responsibility for its perpetuation.
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Jan 7, 2017 18:00
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negromancer posted:And the funny thing is, it's REALLY REALLY easy to not be a racist or sexist. Somehow white people cant get it in their heads to treat minorities with the same respect and decency they treat other white people, and not tolerate people who don't. For a lot of people, it really isn't though. Racism and sexism are part of the fabric of society. They are the background that our interactions take place in front of, and as such can be very difficult to see. That's why a lot of people will do heinously racist / sexist poo poo without noticing, since the behaviour has been normalized. So yeah, not being sexist / racist is easy once you understand what kind of behavior is racist or sexist. But understanding that can be extremely difficult for people.
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Jan 7, 2017 18:24
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Fluffdaddy posted:Here's the thing. It is not black people's job to be teachers, sensei, or magical negros to white people about their racism. We don't need a dialogue. A dialogue assumes that two sides of an issue need to air out grievances and come to a conclusion. That is not the case here. One side needs to stop being racist and the other needs them to stop being racist. There is no discussion. You sure inferred whole lot from that post that wasn't said.
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Jan 7, 2017 18:41
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veni veni veni posted:You sure inferred whole lot from that post that wasn't said. You sure add nothing to this thread with your one line drive by poo poo posting.
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Jan 7, 2017 18:46
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Sorry I didn't feel like making an effort post in response to your Tumblr dump. Everything that guy has said has been incredibly reasonable and it just seems like you would rather argue and alienate people, and be right on the internet more than anything else. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 7, 2017 19:05
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What is Tumblr? You know what, save your bullshit for another thread and get out.
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Jan 7, 2017 19:08
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negromancer posted:And the funny thing is, it's REALLY REALLY easy to not be a racist or sexist. Somehow white people cant get it in their heads to treat minorities with the same respect and decency they treat other white people, and not tolerate people who don't. If its so easy why are you racist to white people
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Jan 7, 2017 19:10
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veni veni veni posted:Everything that guy has said has been incredibly reasonable and it just seems like you would rather argue and alienate people, and be right on the internet more than anything else. Not really I mean he said that the tone argument is important. Its a pretty will known informal fallacy at this point, hardly reasonable to say that its important and then give no reasons why.
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Jan 7, 2017 19:12
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Carmant posted:If its so easy why are you racist to white people gently caress off
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Jan 7, 2017 19:12
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Carmant posted:If its so easy why are you racist to white people Because he doesn't maintain and benefit from systematic oppression of white people? How is this even a question?
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Jan 7, 2017 19:12
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Octatonic posted:Because he doesn't maintain and benefit from systematic oppression of white people? How is this even a question? I dont benefit from a systematic oppression of black people either. botany posted:gently caress off gently caress you bitch
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Jan 7, 2017 19:14
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Carmant posted:I dont benefit from a systematic oppression of black people either. no actually you do need to go gently caress yourself right out of this thread
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Jan 7, 2017 19:15
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Carmant posted:I dont benefit from a systematic oppression of black people either. Why don't you go back to GBS where you can post all the racial slurs you want?
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