Neurolimal posted:

'our people'

Neurolimal posted:

This is up for debate, but IMO it had morr to do with economic concerns than racism. Obviously theres passive racism in the sense of "I'm more concerned with survival than raising other groups", but I'd put more blame on Trump promising open factories and Hillary not setting foot in multiple dem strongholds Trump won. Rep. share of the vote was near or less tha it has been previously. It was ours to lose, and we exceeded expectations.

I understand your concerns, but I ask that you be willing to give him and fiscal leftists a chance. There's a reason a majority of young black dems favored him, and thats only going to grow with time.

Plus, y'know, the alternative is these social allies who, one day after the election, was throwing black people under the bus to tear down Keith Ellison.


Trying to gut social security is not working to help poor people. You can blame children for the sins of their ancestors if you want, but people are not born racist, can be turned not-racist, and can be invaluable in the struggle for equality.


This is a strange thing to say to me, seeing as I've said multiple times that one of the faults of the current centrist democrats has been taking minority groups for granted. When I say we failed, I do not mean "we didn't vote enough". It is not on us to support parties, it is on the parties to earn our support.


Less of 'our people' voted for Trump than they did Romney. We (democrats, leftists) beat romney, but a fracture in the coalition killed us this year. We can throw away a unified left front that has wrested control away from those who blame minorities if that is what you want. I don't control your actions nor do I expect such. It will hurt to see any gains we have made in the past two decades crumble, but as a white who is merely Queer my suffering will only be internal.


It is not someone elses fault. It is our fault. We must fix this if We want to do something about Trump.


If the democrats do not change, then I do not want you or anyone else to vote in the midterms. If that ends up the case I sure wont.

Invisible Handjob posted:

see, you're not willing to accept yourself as part of a group other than liberals struggling for equality, but you are. you are a white person, part of your own group with its own problems, and not a black person.

instead of silently reading this thread and learning something, you barged in and tried to tell black people, in the only thread they have on the forums, who have issues you will never have, how to deal with those issues best. that's why they don't want to be your friend.

negromancer posted:

What's up with this "we" poo poo?

We didn't start racism or the GOP. Y'all did. Leave us the gently caress out of white problems for once.

Neurolimal posted:

Trump is an Everyone problem, and his rise was not due to an imagined wave of racists (at the least, more racists than reps have ever had).

Neurolimal posted:

My family has no ties to slavery or minority exploitation throughout our family tree

quote:

I enjoy the privilege that being white holds

LunarShadow posted:

Passive bigotry is still bigotry. If you support someone who will make life worse for minorities because you believe they will make the majority that you belong to better, you are still a bigot . Like this isn't hard and requires the barest modicum of self reflection and empathy.

Hawkgirl posted:

How is that not a tie to "slavery or minority exploitation"?

Neurolimal posted:

The problem is that empathy needs to be shown both ways, it's not fair, black americans deserve far more leeway, but ultimately most voters won't go out of their way to help someone unwilling to help them. We can blame them for habing the privilege of voting for someone promising them jobs and a not-rotting middle america, or we can turn our ire towards those elites who could not lift the tiniest of fingers to include them in our group at no harm to any other groups.

Hawkgirl posted:

How is that not a tie to "slavery or minority exploitation"?

420 Gank Mid posted:

You can't let yourself get talked out of a good idea just because some white boys are gonna cry over it.

Neurolimal posted:

Because I hold no guilt for the crime of being born with less melanin. Being born with less melanin did not contribute to redlining, sharecropping, voter intimidation, painting MLK as the Magic Pacifist Negro, none of that. It means I was treated better by racists, so long as they didn't know I was poor or gay. There was no black person we muscled out of the car we lived in, no gentrification of our four seat automobile, no unemployment benefits stolen, nothing.

Neurolimal posted:

The problem is that empathy needs to be shown both ways, it's not fair, black americans deserve far more leeway, but ultimately most voters won't go out of their way to help someone unwilling to help them.

Neurolimal posted:

The problem is that empathy needs to be shown both ways, it's not fair, black americans deserve far more leeway, but ultimately most voters won't go out of their way to help someone unwilling to help them. We can blame them for having the privilege of voting for someone promising them jobs and a not-rotting middle america, or we can turn our ire towards those elites who could not lift the tiniest of fingers to include them in our group at no harm to any other groups.

Passive bigotry is still bigotry, but its a bigotry that can be mitigated and reduced. There's a reason we don't call it active bigotry.

Fluffdaddy posted:

You still haven't explained what this has to do with black people or how its our problem in the black people thread.

"Stop being racists" is not a political slogan or strategy its a basic human rights issue.

Hawkgirl posted:

That is a bizarre attitude to take (especially in this thread). You didn't do any of that poo poo, so you get white privilege for free? And you think being treated better by racists (not the racist institutions they built and we - you and I and our fellow white people - support) is the only thing that white privilege gets you? And now you can waltz into a thread like this to tell black people to just hold on a little longer, if they're just a little nicer to white people, they'll get their turn, just wait!

quote:

"Don't you know it's your own fault for not feeling sorry for your oppressors?"

blackguy32 posted:

I'm generally distrustful of any "rising tide lifts all boats" stuff.

Kawabata posted:

Slightly OOT: as a European goon I'm having a hard time imagining how it feels to live in the US right now. Has Trump's victory done anything to legitimize low key racism yet? Has there been any change at all (that you can already perceive) in social interactions between whites and minorities?

Kawabata posted:

Slightly OOT: as a European goon I'm having a hard time imagining how it feels to live in the US right now. Has Trump's victory done anything to legitimize low key racism yet? Has there been any change at all (that you can already perceive) in social interactions between whites and minorities?

My question might seem weird but headlines are one thing, day to day living is another. It's the little things, like a university campus suddenly being less politically correct than before, that neighbor with unsupportable opinions getting a bit more open about them, etc. The horrible little things.

LunarShadow posted:

This is actually a pretty teachable moment. At some point your family either had the capital to buy a car or got a loan for it or inherited it or were given/lent it by a friend (presumably white). Now, you take that fact and add it to the fact that generational wealth transfer in black families was historically hosed over by racist policies, both directly in limiting their prosperity or by less direct means such as getting hosed out of loans and you can see how something as simple of having a car is a benefit of white privilege. Privilage doesn't mean you are sucessful, it means you have to jump two feet to get what people have to jump 6 feet for.

Neurolimal posted:

If we are at the point where we are measuring feet jumped to have a family of four live in a car, we've clearly reached the cosmic center of insanity

I retroactively apologize for my father using the car we failed to pay off that could have instead been failed to pay off by a black poor family. I hope this ancestral sin does not get in the way of us tackling the fact that billionaire men are loving us over.

blackguy32 posted:

It's me. I'm willing to go to bat for Hillary because despite what people like to say, I think she was in tune with minority issues and genuinely cared and has cared for a long time. And has shown that through her platform, the passing of schip, her excellent speech in Harlem, her platform, etc. I generally distrust people who talk about poo poo in mainly economic terms because that's when minorities mysteriously start getting overlooked.

LunarShadow posted:

This is actually a pretty teachable moment. At some point your family either had the capital to buy a car or got a loan for it or inherited it or were given/lent it by a friend (presumably white). Now, you take that fact and add it to the fact that generational wealth transfer in black families was historically hosed over by racist policies, both directly in limiting their prosperity or by less direct means such as getting hosed out of loans and you can see how something as simple of having a car is a benefit of white privilege. Privilage doesn't mean you are sucessful, it means you have to jump two feet to get what people have to jump 6 feet for.

Neurolimal posted:

I've never said black americans need to wait.

Neurolimal posted:

It was a post about how to make reparations palatable without changing the name. This involved implementing all-races economic bills and seizing the narrative so that those most vulnerable to racist attacks are willing to support reparations. I admitted that they would benefit white people more, but thats an inherent flaw of the system to be fixed by reparations.

LunarShadow posted:

Never been called a "friend of the family lover" until this election. So yeah, it's more that the low key poo poo is getting drowned out a bit by the blatant poo poo.

Hawkgirl posted:

Tesseraction posted:

I believe their point was that your dad was even able to have that car to fail to pay off in the first place.

LunarShadow posted:

This was my point. And I wasn't asking you to loving apologize for poo poo. So here, I will relate my own privilege as a white man. My grandparents were poor Okies born during the 1930's, my grandfather was able to buy his first house after serving in the army thanks to the mortgage system (that was discriminatory against black folk) that was meant to encourage home ownership. Because of this mortgage, he was able to pay off the house using his military pension while still making money in the the civil sector and began , for lack of a better term, hoarding of a shitpot of money. My dad, who if he had been black would literally have been lynched before he even met my mom as he actually ran into a group of KKK in Arab Alabama as they were lynching a black man. They only let my dad go because he was white. Then there is me. I was able to get accepted into a fairly decent school with no loans thanks to aforementioned shitpot of hoarded money that only grew as he began collecting an army and civil service pension(and SS for both him and my grandmother), , which is also helping me survive now as me and my fiance moved in together 6 months ago and are only now getting our feet under us. Do you see how such a little thing as a beneficial but racist policy can cause a massive disparity in outcome only three generations later? And the fact white privilege is literally the only reason I exist?

Kawabata posted:

Is the expression "friend of the family lover" being actually used unironically outside of white supremacists now? How do you say that and not feel like a racist parody of yourself right after.

Neurolimal posted:

Because I hold no guilt for the crime of being born with less melanin. Being born with less melanin did not contribute to redlining, sharecropping, voter intimidation, painting MLK as the Magic Pacifist Negro, none of that. It means I was treated better by racists, so long as they didn't know I was poor or gay. There was no black person we muscled out of the car we lived in, no gentrification of our four seat automobile, no unemployment benefits stolen, nothing.

Neurolimal posted:

2. That there do exist white allies with such microscopic-if-any exploitation of minorities or racism that focusing in any and all of their Quantum Privilege instead of the actual causes is, in all honesty and respect, ludicrous.

Neurolimal posted:

That's not saying "black people need to wait", thats saying "our current conditions and false narratives have convinced poor whites that they must lose so that poor blacks can gain, which prevents us from pushing reparations with said name, we can get around this while still helping black americans at every step by helping poor people [will affect white poors more due to systematic inequality, will balance out after reparations] while tackling the fact that balanced budgeting is a bad idea for govt"

I laid it out more clearly in the post botany is referencing. Yeah, we need to jump through hoops to get reparations passed, but when even half of black americans polled react negatively to the term, that's kind of indicative that we need to take some steps first.

Neurolimal posted:

2. That there do exist white allies with such microscopic-if-any exploitation of minorities or racism that focusing in any and all of their Quantum Privilege instead of the actual causes is, in all honesty and respect, ludicrous.

negromancer posted:

4. DON'T DOUBLE DOWN

Oh, no, you've stumbled in here on good faith and then said a thing some consider lovely.

DON'T DOUBLE DOWN!



Apologize, recognize what you said was lovely, and keep it moving. It's for the best.



5. DON'T BE THIS PERSON


“Stop attacking me for having privileges just because I’m white. It’s racist and hurtful.”

Hawkgirl posted:

Ahahaha man I don't know what to say, that is in fact "black people need to wait." Like it is legit weird that you can't see it in your own posts. "It'll balance out later" = "just wait"

You seem really hung up in general on fault, even though you say it's not important. Like you need everyone to know that racism isn't YOUR fault so everyone should listen to your solution for it, since you weren't involved, you're just a passive observer with the REAL outlook. You also seem to be saying that your experience growing up poor is analogous to being black, so much so that you know what is good for black people more than black people know what's good for black people. Pretty sure that isn't the case.

I'm not mad at you for being white, or growing up poor, or for being gay. As you said, that's all stuff that happens to be. I do not think you, in the womb, rubbed your hands together and cackled, "I will choose to be white and oppress minorities!! Muahahaha!!" That said, you and I benefit from the situation we are currently in, however much or little that happens to apply to you specifically, so it seems only fair that WE should be asked to wait while we catch minority classes up.

MariusLecter posted:

Meanwhile...

https://mobile.twitter.com/araslanian_/status/817845475323691008

Neurolimal posted:

2. That there do exist white allies with such microscopic-if-any exploitation of minorities or racism that focusing in any and all of their Quantum Privilege instead of the actual causes is, in all honesty and respect, ludicrous.

quote:

As for why I focus on this, its because I became politically aware through the I/P conflict, which in turn embedded a raging hatred of collective punishment, collective guilt, and generational vengeance.