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Neurolimal posted:'our people' see, you're not willing to accept yourself as part of a group other than liberals struggling for equality, but you are. you are a white person, part of your own group with its own problems, and not a black person. instead of silently reading this thread and learning something, you barged in and tried to tell black people, in the only thread they have on the forums, who have issues you will never have, how to deal with those issues best. that's why they don't want to be your friend.
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# ? Jan 8, 2017 03:41 |
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# ? Jun 3, 2024 23:41 |
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Neurolimal posted:This is up for debate, but IMO it had morr to do with economic concerns than racism. Obviously theres passive racism in the sense of "I'm more concerned with survival than raising other groups", but I'd put more blame on Trump promising open factories and Hillary not setting foot in multiple dem strongholds Trump won. Rep. share of the vote was near or less tha it has been previously. It was ours to lose, and we exceeded expectations. What's up with this "we" poo poo? We didn't start racism or the GOP. Y'all did. Leave us the gently caress out of white problems for once.
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# ? Jan 8, 2017 03:52 |
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Invisible Handjob posted:see, you're not willing to accept yourself as part of a group other than liberals struggling for equality, but you are. you are a white person, part of your own group with its own problems, and not a black person. I've been silently reading for a while. I don't accept myself as part of those who supported and created Trump because I am not a part of that group. My family has no ties to slavery or minority exploitation throughout our family tree, we are dirt poor, and have never been politically invested. I enjoy the privilege that being white holds, as well as suffered the consequences of the crime of being poor. That is why I hold empathy for anyone persuaded by false promises of a better life. My fear is that declaring all people who voted Trump not only closes off future progress, but solidifies an undeserved hatred of the impoverished that has been cultivated. We all belong to different groups that cause us different problems, but we are oft unified in that we looked to the dem party and leftism for support and guidance in our causes through unified strength. I cannot demand you do anything, much like you cannot make demands of me. I will never know the oppression black americans face, just as many of you will not know what growing up in a car is like, nor being poor -and- gay. Nonetheless we can help each other with our causes if we are willing to cooperate. We were divided by a politician unwilling to even offer the false promises her predecessor offered, but this division need not be permanent.
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# ? Jan 8, 2017 03:53 |
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negromancer posted:What's up with this "we" poo poo? Trump is an Everyone problem, and his rise was not due to an imagined wave of racists (at the least, more racists than reps have ever had). He won because an attempt was made to abandon the poor of the party for moderate dems (as admitted by Chuck Schumer himself), which failed spectacularly. In a perfect world racist Trump voters could be capable of being shamed into no longer being racist, but in reality, if Trump makes good on his hateful policies, few will see reason to self-reflect. All we can do is make gains on portions of rep followers while keeping our base of voters.
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# ? Jan 8, 2017 03:57 |
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Neurolimal posted:Trump is an Everyone problem, and his rise was not due to an imagined wave of racists (at the least, more racists than reps have ever had). Yes, actually, it was. Tons of white people decided that they didn't care about the lives of minorities and their apathy is what allowed Trump to win. This is a fact.
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# ? Jan 8, 2017 04:00 |
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Passive bigotry is still bigotry. If you support someone who will make life worse for minorities because you believe they will make the majority that you belong to better, you are still a bigot . Like this isn't hard and requires the barest modicum of self reflection and empathy.
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# ? Jan 8, 2017 04:00 |
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Neurolimal posted:My family has no ties to slavery or minority exploitation throughout our family tree quote:I enjoy the privilege that being white holds How is that not a tie to "slavery or minority exploitation"?
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# ? Jan 8, 2017 04:03 |
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LunarShadow posted:Passive bigotry is still bigotry. If you support someone who will make life worse for minorities because you believe they will make the majority that you belong to better, you are still a bigot . Like this isn't hard and requires the barest modicum of self reflection and empathy. The problem is that empathy needs to be shown both ways, it's not fair, black americans deserve far more leeway, but ultimately most voters won't go out of their way to help someone unwilling to help them. We can blame them for having the privilege of voting for someone promising them jobs and a not-rotting middle america, or we can turn our ire towards those elites who could not lift the tiniest of fingers to include them in our group at no harm to any other groups. Passive bigotry is still bigotry, but its a bigotry that can be mitigated and reduced. There's a reason we don't call it active bigotry.
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# ? Jan 8, 2017 04:04 |
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Hawkgirl posted:How is that not a tie to "slavery or minority exploitation"? Ding ding ding, we have a winner.
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# ? Jan 8, 2017 04:04 |
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Neurolimal posted:The problem is that empathy needs to be shown both ways, it's not fair, black americans deserve far more leeway, but ultimately most voters won't go out of their way to help someone unwilling to help them. We can blame them for habing the privilege of voting for someone promising them jobs and a not-rotting middle america, or we can turn our ire towards those elites who could not lift the tiniest of fingers to include them in our group at no harm to any other groups. So I have actually dealt with these kinds of people. They shut down at even the slightest criticism of the status quo. They see no farther than the end of their collective nose. You can't rely on empathy for those that refuse to show it to others. Edit: As a collective we don't want to give up our privilege cause an even playing ground seems unfair when you are used to being elevated. And honestly it is mostly loving liberals that are the ones that stick to the passive racism. I lived in Alabama for most of my life, most white folk are passively racist in public, but holy loving poo poo does it kick into active fast if you are in a white only space. LunarShadow fucked around with this message at 04:09 on Jan 8, 2017 |
# ? Jan 8, 2017 04:06 |
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Hawkgirl posted:How is that not a tie to "slavery or minority exploitation"? Because I hold no guilt for the crime of being born with less melanin. Being born with less melanin did not contribute to redlining, sharecropping, voter intimidation, painting MLK as the Magic Pacifist Negro, none of that. It means I was treated better by racists, so long as they didn't know I was poor or gay. There was no black person we muscled out of the car we lived in, no gentrification of our four seat automobile, no unemployment benefits stolen, nothing.
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# ? Jan 8, 2017 04:12 |
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420 Gank Mid posted:You can't let yourself get talked out of a good idea just because some white boys are gonna cry over it. I'm generally distrustful of any "rising tide lifts all boats" stuff.
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# ? Jan 8, 2017 04:14 |
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Neurolimal posted:Because I hold no guilt for the crime of being born with less melanin. Being born with less melanin did not contribute to redlining, sharecropping, voter intimidation, painting MLK as the Magic Pacifist Negro, none of that. It means I was treated better by racists, so long as they didn't know I was poor or gay. There was no black person we muscled out of the car we lived in, no gentrification of our four seat automobile, no unemployment benefits stolen, nothing. That is a bizarre attitude to take (especially in this thread). You didn't do any of that poo poo, so you get white privilege for free? And you think being treated better by racists (not the racist institutions they built and we - you and I and our fellow white people - support) is the only thing that white privilege gets you? And now you can waltz into a thread like this to tell black people to just hold on a little longer, if they're just a little nicer to white people, they'll get their turn, just wait! Neurolimal posted:The problem is that empathy needs to be shown both ways, it's not fair, black americans deserve far more leeway, but ultimately most voters won't go out of their way to help someone unwilling to help them. "Don't you know it's your own fault for not feeling sorry for your oppressors?"
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# ? Jan 8, 2017 04:19 |
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Slightly OOT: as a European goon I'm having a hard time imagining how it feels to live in the US right now. Has Trump's victory done anything to legitimize low key racism yet? Has there been any change at all (that you can already perceive) in social interactions between whites and minorities? My question might seem weird but headlines are one thing, day to day living is another. It's the little things, like a university campus suddenly being less politically correct than before, that neighbor with unsupportable opinions getting a bit more open about them, etc. The horrible little things.
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# ? Jan 8, 2017 04:23 |
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Neurolimal posted:The problem is that empathy needs to be shown both ways, it's not fair, black americans deserve far more leeway, but ultimately most voters won't go out of their way to help someone unwilling to help them. We can blame them for having the privilege of voting for someone promising them jobs and a not-rotting middle america, or we can turn our ire towards those elites who could not lift the tiniest of fingers to include them in our group at no harm to any other groups. Why do minorities have to put aside to their concerns to help white people but whites get to freely vote to gently caress over minorities? You're right about one thing, you do enjoy the privileges of being white, and protecting those privileges seems to be your only concern.
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# ? Jan 8, 2017 04:25 |
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Fluffdaddy posted:You still haven't explained what this has to do with black people or how its our problem in the black people thread. It's me. I'm willing to go to bat for Hillary because despite what people like to say, I think she was in tune with minority issues and genuinely cared and has cared for a long time. And has shown that through her platform, the passing of schip, her excellent speech in Harlem, her platform, etc. I generally distrust people who talk about poo poo in mainly economic terms because that's when minorities mysteriously start getting overlooked.
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# ? Jan 8, 2017 04:25 |
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This is actually a pretty teachable moment. At some point your family either had the capital to buy a car or got a loan for it or inherited it or were given/lent it by a friend (presumably white). Now, you take that fact and add it to the fact that generational wealth transfer in black families was historically hosed over by racist policies, both directly in limiting their prosperity or by less direct means such as getting hosed out of loans and you can see how something as simple of having a car is a benefit of white privilege. Privilage doesn't mean you are sucessful, it means you have to jump two feet to get what people have to jump 6 feet for.
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# ? Jan 8, 2017 04:25 |
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Hawkgirl posted:That is a bizarre attitude to take (especially in this thread). You didn't do any of that poo poo, so you get white privilege for free? And you think being treated better by racists (not the racist institutions they built and we - you and I and our fellow white people - support) is the only thing that white privilege gets you? And now you can waltz into a thread like this to tell black people to just hold on a little longer, if they're just a little nicer to white people, they'll get their turn, just wait! I've never said black americans need to wait. The idea that there can only be a fiscal policy or a social policy is bupkiss. I'm sure there are other aspects I benefitted from that didn't cross my mind during the cold winters, but my point is that there exist white americans with other anti-privileges alongside the privilege of being white, and if we want to make progress on both we need to reach out to both. That means more outreach from leftists and Bernie towards black americans ala Symone Sanders, but also more outreach from those who do not suffer poverty towards those that do. I did not create Trump, I did not create any of tjose5problems. The negative impact of my birth and childhood and current ecistence upon black americans is miniscule compared to that of our common enemy. quote:"Don't you know it's your own fault for not feeling sorry for your oppressors?" It's not a question of fault or blame, its a question of how we can make things better.
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# ? Jan 8, 2017 04:27 |
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blackguy32 posted:I'm generally distrustful of any "rising tide lifts all boats" stuff. Pretty much - Sanders' proposals may have boosted the quality of life for some black Americans, but it's a bucket of water on an inferno, really...
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# ? Jan 8, 2017 04:28 |
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Kawabata posted:Slightly OOT: as a European goon I'm having a hard time imagining how it feels to live in the US right now. Has Trump's victory done anything to legitimize low key racism yet? Has there been any change at all (that you can already perceive) in social interactions between whites and minorities? Well, I wouldn't call this low key, but my supervisor's temple has had a massive increase of bomb threats being called in since November 9th.
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# ? Jan 8, 2017 04:28 |
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Kawabata posted:Slightly OOT: as a European goon I'm having a hard time imagining how it feels to live in the US right now. Has Trump's victory done anything to legitimize low key racism yet? Has there been any change at all (that you can already perceive) in social interactions between whites and minorities? Never been called a "friend of the family lover" until this election. So yeah, it's more that the low key poo poo is getting drowned out a bit by the blatant poo poo.
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# ? Jan 8, 2017 04:29 |
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LunarShadow posted:This is actually a pretty teachable moment. At some point your family either had the capital to buy a car or got a loan for it or inherited it or were given/lent it by a friend (presumably white). Now, you take that fact and add it to the fact that generational wealth transfer in black families was historically hosed over by racist policies, both directly in limiting their prosperity or by less direct means such as getting hosed out of loans and you can see how something as simple of having a car is a benefit of white privilege. Privilage doesn't mean you are sucessful, it means you have to jump two feet to get what people have to jump 6 feet for. If we are at the point where we are measuring feet jumped to have a family of four live in a car, we've clearly reached the cosmic center of insanity I retroactively apologize for my father using the car we failed to pay off that could have instead been failed to pay off by a black poor family. I hope this ancestral sin does not get in the way of us tackling the fact that billionaire men are loving us over.
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# ? Jan 8, 2017 04:30 |
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Neurolimal posted:If we are at the point where we are measuring feet jumped to have a family of four live in a car, we've clearly reached the cosmic center of insanity I believe their point was that your dad was even able to have that car to fail to pay off in the first place.
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# ? Jan 8, 2017 04:31 |
blackguy32 posted:It's me. I'm willing to go to bat for Hillary because despite what people like to say, I think she was in tune with minority issues and genuinely cared and has cared for a long time. And has shown that through her platform, the passing of schip, her excellent speech in Harlem, her platform, etc. I generally distrust people who talk about poo poo in mainly economic terms because that's when minorities mysteriously start getting overlooked. I 100% agree with this. I actually really grew to like Hillary and I was really proud of her. Go back watch the DNC vs RNC. The contrast was stark. Now tell me again this election wasn't about racism. We seriously need a word filter that changes "economic anxiety" to "white supremacism"
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# ? Jan 8, 2017 04:31 |
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I went from being exhausted by you to actively hating you. Congratulations
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# ? Jan 8, 2017 04:31 |
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LunarShadow posted:This is actually a pretty teachable moment. At some point your family either had the capital to buy a car or got a loan for it or inherited it or were given/lent it by a friend (presumably white). Now, you take that fact and add it to the fact that generational wealth transfer in black families was historically hosed over by racist policies, both directly in limiting their prosperity or by less direct means such as getting hosed out of loans and you can see how something as simple of having a car is a benefit of white privilege. Privilage doesn't mean you are sucessful, it means you have to jump two feet to get what people have to jump 6 feet for. Yep! I grew up poor and frankly, should have been homeless. But my grandparents, who were very poor themselves, scrimped and saved and bought cheap property in a time and place where black people would not have been permitted to buy that property. And lo, I got to grow up in a house despite having parents who could not rub two loving cents together. That's white privilege. Neurolimal posted:I've never said black americans need to wait. Neurolimal posted:It was a post about how to make reparations palatable without changing the name. This involved implementing all-races economic bills and seizing the narrative so that those most vulnerable to racist attacks are willing to support reparations. I admitted that they would benefit white people more, but thats an inherent flaw of the system to be fixed by reparations.
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# ? Jan 8, 2017 04:33 |
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Why not spend the effort building the coalition yourself instead of telling black people they need to do it? Go yell at some racists instead of doing your best impression of one
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# ? Jan 8, 2017 04:37 |
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LunarShadow posted:Never been called a "friend of the family lover" until this election. So yeah, it's more that the low key poo poo is getting drowned out a bit by the blatant poo poo. Is the expression "friend of the family lover" being actually used unironically outside of white supremacists now? How do you say that and not feel like a racist parody of yourself right after.
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# ? Jan 8, 2017 04:38 |
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That's not saying "black people need to wait", thats saying "our current conditions and false narratives have convinced poor whites that they must lose so that poor blacks can gain, which prevents us from pushing reparations with said name, we can get around this while still helping black americans at every step by helping poor people [will affect white poors more due to systematic inequality, will balance out after reparations] while tackling the fact that balanced budgeting is a bad idea for govt" I laid it out more clearly in the post botany is referencing. Yeah, we need to jump through hoops to get reparations passed, but when even half of black americans polled react negatively to the term, that's kind of indicative that we need to take some steps first.
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# ? Jan 8, 2017 04:38 |
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Tesseraction posted:I believe their point was that your dad was even able to have that car to fail to pay off in the first place. This was my point. And I wasn't asking you to loving apologize for poo poo. So here, I will relate my own privilege as a white man. My grandparents were poor Okies born during the 1930's, my grandfather was able to buy his first house after serving in the army thanks to the mortgage system (that was discriminatory against black folk) that was meant to encourage home ownership. Because of this mortgage, he was able to pay off the house using his military pension while still making money in the the civil sector and began , for lack of a better term, hoarding of a shitpot of money. My dad, who if he had been black would literally have been lynched before he even met my mom as he actually ran into a group of KKK in Arab Alabama as they were lynching a black man. They only let my dad go because he was white. Then there is me. I was able to get accepted into a fairly decent school with no loans thanks to aforementioned shitpot of hoarded money that only grew as he began collecting an army and civil service pension(and SS for both him and my grandmother), , which is also helping me survive now as me and my fiance moved in together 6 months ago and are only now getting our feet under us. Do you see how such a little thing as a beneficial but racist policy can cause a massive disparity in outcome only three generations later? And the fact white privilege is literally the only reason I exist?
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# ? Jan 8, 2017 04:40 |
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LunarShadow posted:This was my point. And I wasn't asking you to loving apologize for poo poo. So here, I will relate my own privilege as a white man. My grandparents were poor Okies born during the 1930's, my grandfather was able to buy his first house after serving in the army thanks to the mortgage system (that was discriminatory against black folk) that was meant to encourage home ownership. Because of this mortgage, he was able to pay off the house using his military pension while still making money in the the civil sector and began , for lack of a better term, hoarding of a shitpot of money. My dad, who if he had been black would literally have been lynched before he even met my mom as he actually ran into a group of KKK in Arab Alabama as they were lynching a black man. They only let my dad go because he was white. Then there is me. I was able to get accepted into a fairly decent school with no loans thanks to aforementioned shitpot of hoarded money that only grew as he began collecting an army and civil service pension(and SS for both him and my grandmother), , which is also helping me survive now as me and my fiance moved in together 6 months ago and are only now getting our feet under us. Do you see how such a little thing as a beneficial but racist policy can cause a massive disparity in outcome only three generations later? And the fact white privilege is literally the only reason I exist? Yes, and if you look back you will find that I never claimed that white privilege does not exist. Here are the two closest arguments I've made to such: 1. That poor whites don't feel privileged (even though they are), so react negatively when implied that their poor quality of life is still more than deserved. 2. That there do exist white allies with such microscopic-if-any exploitation of minorities or racism that focusing in any and all of their Quantum Privilege instead of the actual causes is, in all honesty and respect, ludicrous. As for why I focus on this, its because I became politically aware through the I/P conflict, which in turn embedded a raging hatred of collective punishment, collective guilt, and generational vengeance.
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# ? Jan 8, 2017 04:44 |
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Kawabata posted:Is the expression "friend of the family lover" being actually used unironically outside of white supremacists now? How do you say that and not feel like a racist parody of yourself right after. No loving clue dude. It was shouted at me and my fiancee out of a passing car, so I didn't really get to discuss the finer points of their racism with them. Even if they hadn't been in a car I would have been too buys acquainting their face with the curb.
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# ? Jan 8, 2017 04:47 |
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Neurolimal posted:Because I hold no guilt for the crime of being born with less melanin. Being born with less melanin did not contribute to redlining, sharecropping, voter intimidation, painting MLK as the Magic Pacifist Negro, none of that. It means I was treated better by racists, so long as they didn't know I was poor or gay. There was no black person we muscled out of the car we lived in, no gentrification of our four seat automobile, no unemployment benefits stolen, nothing. This an excuse that comes up time and time again. It's always the previous generation, always someone else. 50 years ago people were saying I didn't own Slaves why do I have to treat black people equally? Before that it was I didn't bring these people from Africa why can't I own them? 50 years from now it'll be well I didn't vote for trump. Someone has said this better than I did, I wish I remembered who/where
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# ? Jan 8, 2017 04:48 |
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Neurolimal posted:2. That there do exist white allies with such microscopic-if-any exploitation of minorities or racism that focusing in any and all of their Quantum Privilege instead of the actual causes is, in all honesty and respect, ludicrous. Tell us more about how the feelings and concerns of black people are ludicrous.
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# ? Jan 8, 2017 04:49 |
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Neurolimal posted:That's not saying "black people need to wait", thats saying "our current conditions and false narratives have convinced poor whites that they must lose so that poor blacks can gain, which prevents us from pushing reparations with said name, we can get around this while still helping black americans at every step by helping poor people [will affect white poors more due to systematic inequality, will balance out after reparations] while tackling the fact that balanced budgeting is a bad idea for govt" Ahahaha man I don't know what to say, that is in fact "black people need to wait." Like it is legit weird that you can't see it in your own posts. "It'll balance out later" = "just wait" You seem really hung up in general on fault, even though you say it's not important. Like you need everyone to know that racism isn't YOUR fault so everyone should listen to your solution for it, since you weren't involved, you're just a passive observer with the REAL outlook. You also seem to be saying that your experience growing up poor is analogous to being black, so much so that you know what is good for black people more than black people know what's good for black people. Pretty sure that isn't the case. I'm not mad at you for being white, or growing up poor, or for being gay. As you said, that's all stuff that happens to be. I do not think you, in the womb, rubbed your hands together and cackled, "I will choose to be white and oppress minorities!! Muahahaha!!" That said, you and I benefit from the situation we are currently in, however much or little that happens to apply to you specifically, so it seems only fair that WE should be asked to wait while we catch minority classes up.
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# ? Jan 8, 2017 04:49 |
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Neurolimal posted:2. That there do exist white allies with such microscopic-if-any exploitation of minorities or racism that focusing in any and all of their Quantum Privilege instead of the actual causes is, in all honesty and respect, ludicrous. negromancer posted:
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# ? Jan 8, 2017 04:52 |
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Hawkgirl posted:Ahahaha man I don't know what to say, that is in fact "black people need to wait." Like it is legit weird that you can't see it in your own posts. "It'll balance out later" = "just wait" You know, i learned a lot from reading your posts in the K-12 thread and am really happy you are posting here, cause seriously you are doing a better job of phrasing what I am trying to get at.
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# ? Jan 8, 2017 04:52 |
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Meanwhile... https://mobile.twitter.com/araslanian_/status/817845475323691008
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# ? Jan 8, 2017 04:54 |
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Goddamn man, at least throw some fuckin cumin and cayenne in there.
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# ? Jan 8, 2017 04:55 |
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# ? Jun 3, 2024 23:41 |
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Neurolimal posted:2. That there do exist white allies with such microscopic-if-any exploitation of minorities or racism that focusing in any and all of their Quantum Privilege instead of the actual causes is, in all honesty and respect, ludicrous. Yeah this is the one we (I) take issue with. Why do you get to be the judge of how white privilege-y you are? We have white privilege, one of the "perks" of that privilege is that we are blind to how pervasive and damaging it really is. Maybe we should let people who lack white privilege tell us how privilege-y we are instead of deciding that their judgment is "ludicrous." Like I shouldn't be the one telling you you have a bunch of white privilege either since I also am drowning in the poo poo. But at least one black person who was engaging with you had to pull out of the conversation because you were exhausting to talk to. That should be a hint to reflect. quote:As for why I focus on this, its because I became politically aware through the I/P conflict, which in turn embedded a raging hatred of collective punishment, collective guilt, and generational vengeance. Do I understand you to mean something like "Israelis/Jews were oppressed a shitload, in part by Arab people, and now they are the ones doing the oppressing of Arab/Palestinian people, and this is just like how black people in America are revenge-oppressing white people"? I don't really know how else to take that statement.
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# ? Jan 8, 2017 04:59 |