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LunarShadow posted:Goddamn man, at least throw some fuckin cumin and cayenne in there. Or some seasoning salt. Koalas March posted:I 100% agree with this. I actually really grew to like Hillary and I was really proud of her. Yeah, I kind of got sick of seeing her as a scapegoat after the election. Hillary has worked her rear end off to get to where she is. She could just half rear end it like many politicians but she gives 110 percent.
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Jan 8, 2017 05:01
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Hawkgirl posted:Ahahaha man I don't know what to say, that is in fact "black people need to wait." Like it is legit weird that you can't see it in your own posts. "It'll balance out later" = "just wait" I guess it's just a difference of opinions on fiscal leftism. In the primaries there was a blatant generational gap on display in exit polls, where minority groups of every race, gender, and orientation 18-35 favored fiscal leftism, with that sharply declining in further age brackets (including whites). I personally dont feel that helping all (including black) poor americans as part of a road to fixing systemic racism as putting social issues in the backseat, but I have 100% faith that you have genuine and good reasons to believe elsewise. I dont have a hidden desire to absolve fault, more that I feel a focus on fault or blame can ruin what could be a transformative period for democrats that makes all downtroddrn groups heard irregardless of the ruling elite. I don't want apathy towards a strong leftist coalition to fester even if its only among older generations, because I really do want every group to be uplifted and for leftism to be 'proven', and that requires everyone's concerns heard and assisted.
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Jan 8, 2017 05:01
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blackguy32 posted:Or some seasoning salt. I dont want to directly drag offtopic issues into the fray, but I will say that even if you feel Hillary is a good leader, its hard to argue that she isn't a bad campaigner/hires bad people to campaign for her. Quote this post in the election thread (pink tag) if you want to talk more about it.
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Jan 8, 2017 05:03
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Neurolimal posted:I guess it's just a difference of opinions on fiscal leftism. In the primaries there was a blatant generational gap on display in exit polls, where minority groups of every race, gender, and orientation 18-35 favored fiscal leftism, with that sharply declining in further age brackets (including whites). I personally dont feel that helping all (including black) poor americans as part of a road to fixing systemic racism as putting social issues in the backseat, but I have 100% faith that you have genuine and good reasons to believe elsewise. History shows that social issues will usually take a back seat to fiscal leftism. It doesn't fill me with confidence that the champion of it seemed to be flabbergasted when black people called him out on his poo poo.
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Jan 8, 2017 05:04
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blackguy32 posted:History shows that social issues will usually take a back seat to fiscal leftism. It doesn't fill me with confidence that the champion of it seemed to be flabbergasted when black people called him out on his poo poo. History is brought up a lot, but the most recent example I usually see is the New Deal, a plan gutted down from its original state by racists who brought on the depression, and many racist elements condemned by fiscal leftists of-the-time. It's still good for a cold reminder that it is possible for economic leftism's effects to be delayed on minorities if we act passively and do not work against that. I wouldn't really say Bernie was flabbergasted; he took an egalitarian stance, was emboldened by polls showing demographic-wide support, and was taken aback by how strong Hillary's (rightly deserved, having used her executive positions to listen to ignored black communities for 2 decades) support among southern blacks was. In his defense he did the best thing he could at the pre-rally, and it says plenty of his willingness to help social leftism that the very same rally he was getting protested/crashed over that...he had an announcement of a black social reform assistant ready.
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Jan 8, 2017 05:11
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blackguy32 posted:Yeah, I kind of got sick of seeing her as a scapegoat after the election. Hillary has worked her rear end off to get to where she is. She could just half rear end it like many politicians but she gives 110 percent. Yeah I guess I should really put my thoughts on this in the feminism thread but gently caress, a lot of the Hillary stuff smelled and still smells like sexism through and through. "If Hillary was the same person but a dude" would change quite a few aspects of her life so it's hard to quantify but I'm pretty loving sure this election year would have looked a LOT different. LunarShadow posted:You know, i learned a lot from reading your posts in the K-12 thread and am really happy you are posting here, cause seriously you are doing a better job of phrasing what I am trying to get at.  Thanks dude. Neurolimal posted:I dont have a hidden desire to absolve fault, more that I feel a focus on fault or blame can ruin what could be a transformative period for democrats that makes all downtroddrn groups heard irregardless of the ruling elite. I don't want apathy towards a strong leftist coalition to fester even if its only among older generations, because I really do want every group to be uplifted and for leftism to be 'proven', and that requires everyone's concerns heard and assisted. I mean yeah I 100% agree with you, it's just that in your head that last part means "don't forget about the white working class" and in my head means "let's help black people and other minorities get treated like humans more often in their everyday lives." blackguy32 posted:History shows that social issues will usually take a back seat to fiscal leftism. It doesn't fill me with confidence that the champion of it seemed to be flabbergasted when black people called him out on his poo poo. Exactly.
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Jan 8, 2017 05:14
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Feminism thread is happy to have you hawkgirl! I lurk here, because as a white girl I'd feel out of place posting, but it's definitely white America's fault for Trump and I think the problem with the bulk of your posts Neurolimal has been your lovely attitude and the assumption that this time the so-called economic leftists won't leave POC's behind, as they do often have.
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Jan 8, 2017 05:19
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stone cold posted:
I heavily commiserate with this post.
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Jan 8, 2017 05:20
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stone cold posted:Feminism thread is happy to have you hawkgirl! I think the feeling is mutual between both social and fiscal leftists, and that if relations don't warm then I'm not sure if either will make any progress, let alone stop Trump from serving two terms.
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Jan 8, 2017 05:23
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stone cold posted:
Same, but as a nonblack POC. I would add that not enough credit is given to black civil society organizations that push for center-of-left causes like Moral Mondays in NC. Rev. Barber, the guy behind it, is a very shrewd state-level political strategist. Hopefully this isn't a derail, but United Culinary Workers was an important group for Latin@ politics in Nevada in GOTV/registration that led to Dems retaining Reid's seat. Neither group has really received much attention after the elections, and I think that's a mistake.
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Jan 8, 2017 05:26
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Neurolimal posted:I think the feeling is mutual between both social and fiscal leftists, and that if relations don't warm then I'm not sure if either will make any progress, let alone stop Trump from serving two terms. Fiscal leftists are welcome to make that happen, but somehow the best you guys ever come up with is "let's help white people first and then minorities right after, for realsies this time".
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Jan 8, 2017 05:26
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Neurolimal posted:History is brought up a lot, but the most recent example I usually see is the New Deal, a plan gutted down from its original state by racists who brought on the depression, and many racist elements condemned by fiscal leftists of-the-time. The New Deal is used because it is self contained. But the best way to put it for more modern policy is that it is a bunch of separate policies that interact to keep certain people from accessing services/improvements in their SES. The biggest example would be the war on drugs being used to incarcerate black folk at higher rates than white folk, then policies that allow for de facto slavery in prisons, as well as the fact that min wage increase won't do jack if you are having issues getting job like a lot of folks with a record have, to substandard education in minority centers that also contribute to said mass incarceration and the general concept of the school-to-prison pipeline. It's not any one policy that needs to be changed, and that is why a lot of people are skeptical when it comes to poo poo like increased min wage being a panacea that so many leftists see it as. I am simplifying greatly here because there are a poo poo ton of moving parts, but it also comes down to privilege in regards to law enforcement too. White folk get more benefit of the doubt than black folk do legally, and generally get out of poo poo with warnings where a black person would get arrested and have it go on their record. The problem with saying "oh, we need to help all the poor, and that will inherently help white people more than black people but black people will catch up" is the things that hinder black folk from catching up is not fiscal in nature and will have had nothing to done about it casuing even more lag in that catching up. Then we start this whole song and dance over again as a new generation says "oh we should help all poor people, black folk will catch up" On a side note, if their were one historical figure I would want to revive to shoot, it would be Andrew Johnson for effectively destroying Reconstruction, then I'd do it a second time cause gently caress Johnson. Edit: I do also want to apologize for being so goddamn aggressive in this thread lately, having a leftist tell me they wanted equal rights for black people but that they didn't like them loving broke me. LunarShadow fucked around with this message at 05:31 on Jan 8, 2017 |
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Jan 8, 2017 05:27
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Neurolimal posted:I think the feeling is mutual between both social and fiscal leftists, and that if relations don't warm then I'm not sure if either will make any progress, let alone stop Trump from serving two terms. What policies do so-called 'social leftists' advocate for that leave non-POC's behind? 
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Jan 8, 2017 05:30
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Who What Now posted:Fiscal leftists are welcome to make that happen, but somehow the best you guys ever come up with is "let's help white people first and then minorities right after, for realsies this time". The issue on the fiscal leftist side is that we're never given even a benefit of a doubt. It seems like from the very moment Hillary said that notorious "will breaking up the banks solve racism?" line that everything we say and suggest must be observed to the character. It's okay to prance people responsible for countless minority deaths on-stage during a convention, but any suggestion that the new leftists are more racially aware than those 60-80 years ago is heavily scrutinized. I mean, even in here everyone fell over themselves to assume Botany's summary of the post I had made about reparations (which involved both social and fiscal action to obtain the end goal of reparations), that suggested I wanted to give white people and whites alone Lodes-e-Money was true.
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Jan 8, 2017 05:31
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Neurolimal posted:The issue on the fiscal leftist side is that we're never given even a benefit of a doubt. It seems like from the very moment Hillary said that notorious "will breaking up the banks solve racism?" line that everything we say and suggest must be observed to the character. It's okay to prance people responsible for countless minority deaths on-stage during a convention, but any suggestion that the new leftists are more racially aware than those 60-80 years ago is heavily scrutinized. Is anything ever your fault, or do you always have a convenient excuse about why someone else is to blame for your shortcomings? Like do you have even a single failing you take ownership of?
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Jan 8, 2017 05:35
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Who What Now posted:Is anything ever your fault, or do you always have a convenient excuse about why someone else is to blame for your shortcomings? Like do you have even a single failing you take ownership of? Sure: I should have waited until after work to make that first post starting this, since I could have devoted more time to making it clearer.
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Jan 8, 2017 05:36
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Neurolimal posted:Trump won more % of all minorities than Mitt Romney, most milquetoast of GE republican runners. I'm not going to respond or for that matter even loving read anything else you have to say until you understand a really loving simple concept. White people are the loving problem. White people voted for Trump more than any other group which is why he loving won. White people are the loving problem because they voted for him over Hillary in every loving demographic group, yes even loving yours.  People of color didn't loving vote for him over Hillary so trying to say it's somehow their fault when they voted for Hillary more than they voted for Trump, you know unlike every loving white demographic, is literally the dumbest loving thing. Gringostar fucked around with this message at 06:38 on Jan 8, 2017 |
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Jan 8, 2017 06:09
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"I just must not have been clear. I don't need to reexamine my thought process or imagine the point of view of someone else to engage in conversation. I need you to read another rephrasing of my post because the real problem here is that you just aren't understanding me. Let me try again." -all the tourists in negrotown
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Jan 8, 2017 06:14
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Clinton won black votes 88-8. It's not on them, I assure you.
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Jan 8, 2017 06:31
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Death Bot posted:Clinton won black votes 88-8. It's not on them, I assure you. Yeah, but he's gonna come back talking some "we" need to fix something white people caused, because apparently he hasn't gotten the message that we (POCs) aren't maids.
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Jan 8, 2017 07:35
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negromancer posted:Yeah, but he's gonna come back talking some "we" need to fix something white people caused, because apparently he hasn't gotten the message that we (POCs) aren't maids.
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Jan 8, 2017 07:42
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negromancer posted:Yeah, but he's gonna come back talking some "we" need to fix something white people caused, because apparently he hasn't gotten the message that we (POCs) aren't maids. Look man, white people are accustomed to seeing POC as the hired help so maybe be a bit more sensitive to that and give them some time to adjust.
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Jan 8, 2017 07:54
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Who What Now posted:Fiscal leftists are welcome to make that happen, but somehow the best you guys ever come up with is "let's help white people first and then minorities right after, for realsies this time". What about policies like $15 minimum wage and free college? Those are big in fiscal leftist circles, and I don't see how either of them are racist.
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Jan 8, 2017 08:12
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Guy Goodbody posted:What about policies like $15 minimum wage and free college? Those are big in fiscal leftist circles, and I don't see how either of them are racist. Can't take advantage of min wage if you can't get hired. Can't use free college if your basic education is garbage. They aren't directly racist but suffers from the colorblind stuff that was brought up.
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Jan 8, 2017 08:14
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blackguy32 posted:Or some seasoning salt. Yeah she gave it 110 percent for being a corporate subordinate with a public and a private face.
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Jan 8, 2017 08:38
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Fados posted:Yeah she gave it 110 percent for being a corporate subordinate with a public and a private face. Yup, her being a corporate subordinate was why she lost. Racist white people of every age voting for the racist had nothing to do with it.
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Jan 8, 2017 08:47
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Fados posted:Yeah she gave it 110 percent for being a corporate subordinate with a public and a private face. Ok that's great and all but it changes nothing about what I said and her accomplishments. I was proud to vote for her as a candidate because despite what is often said about her, I think she really cared and listened to minorities and what they had to say.
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Jan 8, 2017 08:47
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There's a feminism thread? People have been hating black people for centuries, but they've been hating women for millennia. If the blame for Trump falls on any group (that isn't Russians or Republican lawmakers) it's the ones who didn't vote or voted third party because they were sure that everyone else would do the dirty work of putting the competent woman in office. Most of the retired union people I know did just that, because they couldn't vote for a Clinton after NAFTA.
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Jan 8, 2017 08:55
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blackguy32 posted:Can't take advantage of min wage if you can't get hired. Can't use free college if your basic education is garbage. They aren't directly racist but suffers from the colorblind stuff that was brought up. White Supremacy is a house that must be torn down brick by brick. Lowering the barriers that disproportionately hold back minority youth in America (the exorbitant costs of education, a lack of access to preventative healthcare, and the tragic cutbacks to labor rights we've seen in the last half-century) might not be flashy but these are the things that matter in the long haul. Generational wealth is heavily intertwined in the roots of white supremacy and capitalism exaggerates the effects of generational wealth, allowing the powerful to continue kicking down the same ladders they used to climb to the top once they get there. So long as we live in a capitalist state someone will feel the boot on their neck and for the foreseeable future minorities remain the easiest scapegoat.
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Jan 8, 2017 08:57
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Gringostar posted:
we'll never know if those jobless whites voted for guy that was spoke against nafta or for the racist. i guess you've made up your mind either way, so it doesnt really matter does it
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Jan 8, 2017 09:06
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Fados posted:we'll never know if those jobless whites voted for guy that was spoke against nafta or for the racist. i guess you've made up your mind either way, so it doesnt really matter does it You really can't separate the racist from the rest. Plus people who had the economy as their chief concern voted for Hillary, and the average Trump voters median income was about 20k higher than the national average, so... Maybe they were just racists.
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Jan 8, 2017 09:10
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negromancer posted:You really can't separate the racist from the rest. So if a lot of those guys would've voted for Bernie like the polls say that also makes him racist right?
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Jan 8, 2017 09:12
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negromancer posted:Yeah, but he's gonna come back talking some "we" need to fix something white people caused, because apparently he hasn't gotten the message that we (POCs) aren't maids. You know, I got into a bit of a debate with him a little while ago in another thread, and it ended up with him saying how tired he was with having to prove he was an ally. I dropped it because I was tired, but that still gnaws at me a bit. I'm an anarchist, but even among supposedly leftist posters on this forum, I have to reiterate that I care about poor people (poor white people, implicitly) otherwise I'm just dividing everyone with identity politics. Meanwhile, according to his school of thought, it's so exhausting to be an ally, I wouldn't understand, and it's really my fault if I push people into white supremacy, if you think about it. I don't know. I'm used to feeling like I have to tiptoe around white people's feelings. But you know what, especially since the election, I've been getting better and better about calling white people on their poo poo. I'm still working on it, and some people have deeply disappointed me, but some people really surprised me by stepping up. It's a lot better than sitting around being taken for granted, I can tell you that. (Half asleep, hope this post is reasonably coherent.)
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Jan 8, 2017 09:22
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Fados posted:So if a lot of those guys would've voted for Bernie like the polls say that also makes him racist right? They'd be sexist.
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Jan 8, 2017 09:34
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Fados posted:So if a lot of those guys would've voted for Bernie like the polls say that also makes him racist right? Fluffdaddy posted:There ain't no coalition nigga, y'all did this because you didn't fight hard enough to combat racism amongst your people.
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Jan 8, 2017 09:40
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This Perry Bible Fellowship edit rings true yet again  Also lo-loving-l at Neuroliminal's handwringing white moderate-isms. You're literally the example MLK was talking about in his letters.
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Jan 8, 2017 10:15
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Fados posted:we'll never know if those jobless whites voted for guy that was spoke against nafta or for the racist. i guess you've made up your mind either way, so it doesnt really matter does it  Oh poo poo, it was all about those poor people that voted against her.  It wasn't about racism at all.
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Jan 8, 2017 11:37
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Gringostar posted:
To be fair (sorry, folks), that income thing is a little misleading. Trump won more rich people overall, but won drastically more poor people and less rich people proportionally than Romney did. So it was more a case of 'still the party of the rich, but less so'. You could make a similar argument for minority votes, but let's be real here, the comical amounts of voter suppression probably had way more to do with that.
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Jan 8, 2017 11:40
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Darth Walrus posted:To be fair (sorry, folks), that income thing is a little misleading. Trump won more rich people overall, but won more poor people and less rich people proportionally than Romney did. So it was more a case of 'still the party of the rich, but less so'. This is correct as a larger % of POC are poor as gently caress compared to white people, but I haven't found a breakdown of income by race yet. (If you have it post it) But oh yeah, voter suppression by white people absolutely kept a lot people at home.
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Jan 8, 2017 11:45
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Fluffdaddy posted:No. You, meaning white people, made Donald Trump possible by spending the last few hundreds of years blaming minorities for economic issues and using it as an excuse to enslave us. Hell, even as Obama worked his rear end off to do what he can for these poor rear end white folks, the spectre of racism still hung over their head. They could not loving stand that a black man was trying to do their sorry asses a solid. Insurance to relieve them from economic burdens? Its got that nigga's name on it, it must be bad. This is a drat good post, and it highlights the big "coalition politics" blind spot that a lot of the CSPAM-type leftists seem to have. Any left-of-center coalition in the U.S. loving needs people of color. So give them a sign you take them seriously and really want them as part of your coalition. Because right now, the "rising tide raises all ships" attitude is basically the same mistake that the Dems made about working class voters in the Rust Belt, ie: saying, "Oh, well, they've got nowhere else to go, so of course they'll vote for us." You can't do that with those voters, and you can't do that with voters of color either.
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Jan 8, 2017 11:46
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