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Guy Goodbody posted:What about policies like $15 minimum wage and free college? Those are big in fiscal leftist circles, and I don't see how either of them are racist. blackguy32 posted:Can't take advantage of min wage if you can't get hired. Can't use free college if your basic education is garbage. They aren't directly racist but suffers from the colorblind stuff that was brought up. If I may: I've sort of been thinking about the minimum wage increase in San Francisco. They are trying to raise the minimum wage to $15 incrementally over the next few years. Meanwhile, skyrocketing real estate prices are causing middle-class working people to have to move elsewhere (which includes lot of black people, according to the NYT article below). While some of these sort of 'fiscal leftists' are happy to push for this abstract idea of helping out the working people in general, by the time the increase kicks in the only people left to work the jobs are going to be, like, kids whose parents can afford to live there. You can be charitable and assume the 'leftists' are just trying to do what they can, when they can, but it seems a little like "sure, lets raise the minimum wage for the coffee shop workers, after all the black people move away" even if that wasn't intentional. It's a loose association, but I understand a little wariness re: economic policies that are supposed to help "everyone". I don't mean to try to come in here and minimize the blindnesses of the white left concerning race, so I apologise if I come off like that. The wariness comments upthread resonated with me. Thanks for the good thread, been digesting it today. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/21/us/black-exodus-from-san-francisco.html http://sfgov.org/olse/minimum-wage-ordinance-mwo
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Jan 8, 2017 12:03
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Majorian posted:This is a drat good post, and it highlights the big "coalition politics" blind spot that a lot of the CSPAM-type leftists seem to have. Any left-of-center coalition in the U.S. loving needs people of color. So give them a sign you take them seriously and really want them as part of your coalition. Because right now, the "rising tide raises all ships" attitude is basically the same mistake that the Dems made about working class voters in the Rust Belt, ie: saying, "Oh, well, they've got nowhere else to go, so of course they'll vote for us." You can't do that with those voters, and you can't do that with voters of color either. A good post. That "CSPAM-type leftist blind spot" you talk about that Sanders had when the primary kicked off and what his base still largely has was what hosed him with POC, and that more than anything DWS or anyone in the democratic party did cost him the primary. https://twitter.com/BernieSanders/status/817909943579725824 poo poo like this is good and what is absolutely needed for the left-of-center coalition to win against Trump and republicans. CSPAM-type leftists that continue to refuse that white people is the reason Trump won, or that black folk need to work on their tone before they deserve their right of not having systemic racism be against them on the other hand is bad and while you can still get away with talking that poo poo in CSPAM this thread ain't loving CSPAM. Gringostar fucked around with this message at 13:01 on Jan 8, 2017 |
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Jan 8, 2017 12:22
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crusader_complex posted:If I may: Another good post and a great example about stuff that unintentionally affects minorities.
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Jan 8, 2017 12:39
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How do you systematically address structural racism though, because it's easier said than done. How well did Obama address it by the way?
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Jan 8, 2017 14:08
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How is putting the blame of the country's problem's solely on white people, any different ideologically from trump blaming mexicans ? I mean besides having more compelling a story about it it seems like the exact same type of politics.
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Jan 8, 2017 15:02
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Fados posted:How is putting the blame of the country's problem's solely on white people, any different ideologically from trump blaming mexicans ? I mean besides having more compelling a story about it it seems like the exact same type of politics. Historically, white people have hosed over everyone else in a quest for wealth and power, and now the only just thing is for all white people to realize that and work towards reparations.
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Jan 8, 2017 15:22
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Fados posted:How is putting the blame of the country's problem's solely on white people, any different ideologically from trump blaming mexicans ? Because it's the truth? Unlike mexicans white men have been in power of the US since it was founded and thus the blame lies with them.
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Jan 8, 2017 15:22
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Fados posted:How is putting the blame of the country's problem's solely on white people, any different ideologically from trump blaming mexicans ? I mean besides having more compelling a story about it it seems like the exact same type of politics. It's different because it's factual and based this country's stunningly accurate history of white American's subjugation, hatred and fear of black and brown people. It's not fearmongering about white people, because white people made this system, they're benefiting from this system and it's not a reactionary fear of "the great white menace".
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Jan 8, 2017 15:24
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crusader_complex posted:If I may: TBH if leftists had their way the wage increases wouldn't be in one city, wouldn't be over such a long period, and San Francisco would be more affordable. Unfortunately liberals hold a lot of sway still and stymie such efforts.
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Jan 8, 2017 15:33
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Eh, the minimum wage in San Francisco could be $5 an hour and housing prices would be just as bad. Theres a lot of scarcity due to foreign investment, air bnb letting building owners turn their properties into fauxtels and the trendiness of the area to single techbros cuts down on vacant rental units considerably. Popular cities with good weather are always going to be prohibitively expensive, especially cities built in the tip of a peninsula that limits growth. I wouldn't want conservatives to latch onto the idea that raising the minimum wage is indirectly bad for minorities because it will give them yet another excuse to justify keeping it down by feigning sincerity "no see keeping minimum wage low is good for poor blacks see..."
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Jan 8, 2017 15:58
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Panfilo posted:Eh, the minimum wage in San Francisco could be $5 an hour and housing prices would be just as bad. Theres a lot of scarcity due to foreign investment, air bnb letting building owners turn their properties into fauxtels and the trendiness of the area to single techbros cuts down on vacant rental units considerably. Popular cities with good weather are always going to be prohibitively expensive, especially cities built in the tip of a peninsula that limits growth. Don't forget the ordinance that prevents tall, high density buildings from being built cause they would ruin "the charm" of SF. That thing helps feed the gentrification problems in SF
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Jan 8, 2017 16:04
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Fados posted:How is putting the blame of the country's problem's solely on white people, any different ideologically from trump blaming mexicans ? I mean besides having more compelling a story about it it seems like the exact same type of politics. Probably because we're the largest voting group and also the only one that voted trump over Clinton.
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Jan 8, 2017 16:50
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blackguy32 posted:Can't take advantage of min wage if you can't get hired. Can't use free college if your basic education is garbage. They aren't directly racist but suffers from the colorblind stuff that was brought up. So would you support those policies if they came with other policies to address racial inequality, or are you just flat out opposed to them?
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Jan 8, 2017 17:00
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Guy Goodbody posted:So would you support those policies if they came with other policies to address racial inequality, or are you just flat out opposed to them? Why are the racial components of labor and education policy considered negotiable, optional, and/or secondary?
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Jan 8, 2017 17:09
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Koalas March posted:It's different because it's factual and based this country's stunningly accurate history of white American's subjugation, hatred and fear of black and brown people. It's not fearmongering about white people, because white people made this system, they're benefiting from this system and it's not a reactionary fear of "the great white menace". Just because your wife's cheating on you doesn't mean you're not paranoid. As true as it is that oppression has been historically a monopoly of white people I don't think political standpoints where you get to completely remove yourself as an accountable agent are productive towards progressivism. It creates a space where you yourself and your group gets a free pass from thinking your own ideological biases, removes self-awareness and leads to to pitfall of constant reliance on relativization and 'but they also' type arguments. I immediately understand you have an obvious response to what I just said I if you go and apply it to the black community in the time of slavery: "what kind of self-reflexion was even possible for blacks under the yoke of complete oppression? you can only resist as hard as you can and hope that you can then create even a slitter of space minimally necessary to posit yourself as an actor". Fine, and I well understand that point. I can only point out that my favorite example of Black slaves rebelling was the Haitian revolution, (btw one of the only that succeeded) as they milacurously managed to adopt, beyond all odds, the very universal project of their own colonizers, they adoped the ideals of the French Revolution, the mandate of their own oppressors, to liberate themselves.
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Jan 8, 2017 17:12
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Fados posted:I don't think political standpoints where you get to completely remove yourself as an accountable agent are productive towards progressivism. We are no loving accountable for our own oppression. it is not the job of the subjugated to fix the system which oppresses them.
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Jan 8, 2017 17:32
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Guy Goodbody posted:What about policies like $15 minimum wage and free college? Those are big in fiscal leftist circles, and I don't see how either of them are racist. a potential negative result of free public college is private hbcus losing even more enrollment, and possibly public ones
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Jan 8, 2017 17:39
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Koalas March posted:We are no loving accountable for our own oppression. it is not the job of the subjugated to fix the system which oppresses them. So Black people should just get out of politics and off police forces altogether then? Because that sort of attitude is completely counterproductive to any sort of minority representation in politics, since all agency is removed from minorities.
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Jan 8, 2017 17:45
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And the spectre of black slaves rising up and overthrowing their white masters utterly terrified the US, thereby delaying recognition of Haiti as an independent nation for many years. It doesn't make a great counterpoint to the observable, measurable statistical fact that white people, and especially those motivated by 'immigration' and 'terrorism' broke for Trump in a major way. It is also true that Clinton likely would have won with a better GOTV effort and more face time in the rust belt states that sealed the deal. Throw shade on her for that if you want, it's well deserved. But now there's the slight problem that you're asking black people to break bread with the demographic that collectively decided "it's okay if your lives get harder on almost every conceivable axis, if it means The Old Mill will start running again. The orange racist conman we voted for strongly implied it could happen, don't you know? That's worth taking a chance on, imo" That is, I think, why you see a lot of anger in this thread towards the parade of well-meaning liberals who come in and make pleas for comity. It implies, deliberately or not, that black people need to pull together with the rest of Democratic coalition without any sort of equivalent soul-searching on the part of the other side. I hear a lot about how "oh it's human nature to vote against the status quo when your current life sucks." Agreed. It is also human nature to get annoyed at someone who sells you down the loving river.
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Jan 8, 2017 17:57
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Pharohman777 posted:So Black people should just get out of politics and off police forces altogether then? Because that sort of attitude is completely counterproductive to any sort of minority representation in politics, since all agency is removed from minorities.
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Jan 8, 2017 18:06
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Pharohman777 posted:So Black people should just get out of politics and off police forces altogether then? Because that sort of attitude is completely counterproductive to any sort of minority representation in politics, since all agency is removed from minorities. I'm sure there is a standing request for white people to stop being racist. It is not on anyone to word their request better, it is on white people to listen.
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Jan 8, 2017 18:08
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R. Mute posted:She's saying the onus isn't on black people to stop white people from oppressing them, it's on white people to just stop the oppressing - seeing as they're the ones doing it and the ones who, thanks to centuries of white supremacy, are more likely to be in a position to end said oppression. That's not to say that black people can't engage in politics and society itself, that they can't fight for liberation - but if we're talking about ending oppression, the onus lies firmly with white people. We shouldn't be moralising black people and adding conditions to something which shouldn't have any conditions at all: ending oppression. Death Bot posted:I'm sure there is a standing request for white people to stop being racist. It is not on anyone to word their request better, it is on white people to listen. I'm not sure if I'm on the verge of a zen-like epiphany or just really racist deep down but it feels like I'm walking a very thin logic thread here. I suppose POC can relate having to deal with white people like me...
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Jan 8, 2017 18:22
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Fados posted:
The structure of slavery on Haiti was completely different from slavery in the American colonies. For one, the brutal conditions of the sugar plantations meant that a huge number of Haitian slaves were first generation, who had been born in Africa. Many of the slaves being sent to Haiti were prisoners from wars in Africa, which meant that there were a bunch of Haitian slaves with military experience. Secondly, the white population in Haiti was a tiny minority compared to the US. Slaveowners ended up hiring mixed race children as overseers, clerks, and other lower level administrative position, meaning that some of the future leaders of the rebellion had more freedom/resources to move from place to place and help coordinate between different groups of rebellious slaves. Third, Haiti's geography and terrain meant that there were lots of places for the rebel forces to hide in when the French army invaded the island to try and regain control. Thousands of French soldiers died of tropical disease while the rebels were hiding out in the swamps and mountains. These conditions were absent or at least radically different in America. Comparing the slave revolt in Haiti to American slavery and saying that American slaves just didn't fight hard enough or some stupid poo poo is the dumbest goddamn thing I have ever read.
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Jan 8, 2017 18:29
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Grenrow posted:The structure of slavery on Haiti was completely different from slavery in the American colonies. This is a good point that I completely agree with, obviously the conditions and possibilites were completely different in both cases of slavery. But my point was never about fighting hard enough but having the possibility of developing an identity besides one of a complete victim devoid of agency something that poc certainly have today (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 8, 2017 18:38
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Pinch Me Im Meming posted:I'm not sure if I'm on the verge of a zen-like epiphany or just really racist deep down but it feels like I'm walking a very thin logic thread here. I suppose POC can relate having to deal with white people like me... Look, it's real simple. Those with power have the ability to dictate how that power is used. In any relationship between any number of groups or individuals the onus to use power responsibly or modify the relationship so power is shared more equally is not on the group who doesn't have it. White people hold institutionalized power over black people, so the onus is then on white people to dismantle the system that perpetuates this imbalance of power because they are the side that is capable of doing so. The only way for the side without power to modify the relationship is to seize power from the other... but that's a whole different conversation. Let's just say, when the person who's neck you are stepping on asks you to remove your foot it'll be better for you and them if you step off, help them up, and get them something for their bruised neck instead of waiting for them to break your ankle and get up on their own.
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Jan 8, 2017 18:53
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Rangpur posted:
The problem here is that "sells you down the loving river" was how a lot of poor leftists felt during the election. We felt cheated as a result of the primaries, and while most of us dems who voted Bernie voted for Hillary, I'm not shocked that undecideds and dem-leaners didn't. I get the anger, I understand the feeling of betrayal, but after the dust settles I implore you to consider how they felt, and ask yourselves why dem turnout among all demographics was depressed; you can blame voting suplression tactics for the overall reduction in votes, but not the % allocation between democrat and republican. This belief that fiscal leftism is the domain of well-off-yet-poor whites is not held by younger generations of all demographics.
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Jan 8, 2017 19:00
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inkblot posted:Look, it's real simple. Those with power have the ability to dictate how that power is used. In any relationship between any number of groups or individuals the onus to use power responsibly or modify the relationship so power is shared more equally is not on the group who doesn't have it. White people hold institutionalized power over black people, so the onus is then on white people to dismantle the system that perpetuates this imbalance of power because they are the side that is capable of doing so. The only way for the side without power to modify the relationship is to seize power from the other... but that's a whole different conversation. Let's just say, when the person who's neck you are stepping on asks you to remove your foot it'll be better for you and them if you step off, help them up, and get them something for their bruised neck instead of waiting for them to break your ankle and get up on their own.
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Jan 8, 2017 19:06
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I blame voter supression for the black vote being down in certain states. Y'all motherfuckers can relitigate the Clinton/Sanders and try to figure out why the white vote was so down. It's not on us to determine e why y'all are so dumb as to not realize that while the Status Quo isn't good, it's far better than what we are about to get. Sorry this time the Minorities couldn't bail out the Dems like we usually do. Talk to your white neighbors and poo poo. Don't tone police black folk. Dexo fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Jan 8, 2017 |
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Jan 8, 2017 19:09
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R. Mute posted:I feel like people are going to trip over you saying that the only way for the side without power to modify the relationship is seize power from the other - that's what the references to agency are about. It should be noted that the oppressed can always take steps to modify that relationship, but this will always be limited by the willingness of the powerful to cooperate (unless, as you said, you go full seizure of power), so that goes right back to putting the onus on the powerful. And many of us are willing to help in exchange for help themselves. It's less a boot on your neck so much as a corpse pile, with them on top of you. This fracture between social and fiscal leftism did not exist prior to the primaries. Our greatest fiscal leftists were huge proponents of social leftism, and your greatest social leftists were strong proponents of fiscal leftism.
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Jan 8, 2017 19:10
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So when push came to shove "fiscal leftism" sold out poc?
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Jan 8, 2017 19:15
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Neurolimal posted:The problem here is that "sells you down the loving river" was how a lot of poor leftists felt during the election. We felt cheated as a result of the primaries, and while most of us dems who voted Bernie voted for Hillary, I'm not shocked that undecideds and dem-leaners didn't. Black people votes Clinton 88-8, the gently caress thread do you think this is
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Jan 8, 2017 19:15
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Yes it did. It's just that it didn't get exploited for political purposes on the right and in the media until the primaries. Obama's early years there were tons of fights between the center and the left fiscally. It's why Obamacare is as neutered as it is. It's why occupy Wall Street was a thing This primary was just the first actual Dem primary in 8 years.
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Jan 8, 2017 19:15
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MariusLecter posted:So when push came to shove "fiscal leftism" sold out poc? When push came to shove fiscal leftists voted Hillary. Leaners and undecideds didnt vote, and they were the ones who found our messaging appealing.
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Jan 8, 2017 19:19
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Neurolimal posted:When push came to shove fiscal leftists voted Hillary. Leaners and undecideds didnt vote, and they were the ones who found our messaging appealing. Then you should probably go talk to them rather than the black people in this thread. Also maybe have them organized enough to actually vote In primaries and know the rules of the Caucuses. Dexo fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Jan 8, 2017 |
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Jan 8, 2017 19:20
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Panfilo posted:Eh, the minimum wage in San Francisco could be $5 an hour and housing prices would be just as bad. Theres a lot of scarcity due to foreign investment, air bnb letting building owners turn their properties into fauxtels and the trendiness of the area to single techbros cuts down on vacant rental units considerably. Popular cities with good weather are always going to be prohibitively expensive, especially cities built in the tip of a peninsula that limits growth. Housing prices are poo poo in SF because the local regulatory climate makes it a huge pain in the rear end to build stuff, especially apartments, for various reasons (NIMBY, not wanting THE POORS to move in nearby, etc). If you want more cheap housing in San Francisco, repeal the law that bans buildings over 40 feet in most of the city, and get rid of the laws that make it piss easy for people to obstruct new building. On top of that, many landlords have gotten out of the rental business in the past 10 years by utilizing a California state law called the Ellis Act, which allows eviction of tenants if you don't want to rent anymore. So there's almost no construction, and the number of rentable units is shrinking, not growing. This is not because of racism or because of airbnb or 'techbros', but because of self-inflicted idiocy on the part of the populace of San Francisco.
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Jan 8, 2017 19:22
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Fados posted:This is a good point that I completely agree with, obviously the conditions and possibilities were completely different in both cases of slavery. But my point was never about fighting hard enough but having the possibility of developing an identity besides one of a complete victim devoid of agency something that poc certainly have today Lets see here. White people enslave my ancestors for a few hundred years. The first free person in my family was named James, he was 7 years old when the Emancipation Proclamation was signed. He settled into south Alabama when he was 20 years old and married Amanda. They were share croppers. They had a dozen kids, one named Dave, born in the 1880s. Dave marries the daughter of a single mother, named Mary in 1906. They have a dozen or so kids as sharecroppers. One of those kids was named Tom, born in 1933. Tom stays in Alabama and is a sharecropper. In 1950 he marries a woman named Mary. They have about a half dozen kids. One of those kids name is Tommie. Tommie enters high school as the schools become desegregated. He graduates, joins the army, meets his future wife Mary. in 1982, they settle down in Ozark, Alabama and have me. When you talk about our identity and where we are and how we got here, I can show you in just 4 generations before me how we went from slaves to sharecroppers in the Jim Crow south to now. The problem with white folks like you is that you talk about the racists effects of American history in the abstract. I can show you its real and on paper and how it never went anywhere. Instead of looking at that and going, oh poo poo, I learned something today, you say poo poo like this. I am currently digging for slave transactions of only 5 generations ago to prove that James' father escaped to the North and joined the Union army. That is just the injustices of slavery I am tracing. I haven't even began to research the lynchings and cross burnings of 50 or so years ago. Being a victim of white America is not an identity. It is a reality. You don't go to survivors of rape and say "hey its time to move on". You don't go to a family that lost everything in a fire and say "hey, maybe you should think about something else". White people stole our past, our present, and we are doing everything we can to not steal let y'all steal our future too. But until you people clean up your problems and deal with your racism, we have done everything we can. Fluffdaddy fucked around with this message at 19:26 on Jan 8, 2017 |
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Jan 8, 2017 19:23
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Gringostar posted:https://twitter.com/BernieSanders/status/817909943579725824 Yup. It's really heartening to see how much he seems to have learned his lesson. 
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Jan 8, 2017 19:25
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Dexo posted:Then you should probably go talk to them rather than the black people in this thread. They aren't going to be shamed into voting. On the flipside it's hilariously easy to bring them back into the fold without stepping on anyones toes. I'm not tone policing or focusing on black people, I've been saying all this stuff to centrists online and in-person since the election was decided. Death Bot posted:Black people votes Clinton 88-8, the gently caress thread do you think this is Just replying to show I'm not ignoring you; I just checked the exit polls and you are correct, black voters are the only demographic to have not gone more for Trump (8%) than they did for Romney (13%). Of note is hispanic voters, who voted for Trump a whole 19% more than they did Romney.
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Jan 8, 2017 19:26
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Death Bot posted:Black people votes Clinton 88-8, the gently caress thread do you think this is Hey now, white people voted 88 as well. (Sorry, couldn't resist)
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Jan 8, 2017 19:27
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Majorian posted:Yup. It's really heartening to see how much he seems to have learned his lesson. ....that's what most leftists have been saying, though? That it's important to address both social and fiscal leftism, and ignoring either causes both to lose.
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Jan 8, 2017 19:28
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