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VelvetRiver posted:I have heard a lot about how she only has herself to blame, that the Democrats should have never nominated a person who is hated so much. Never mind that some of the basis for the hatred of her is her husband, and some comes from her being unwilling to be forced into the role of traditional wife and mother. You're right about the role of internalized sexism. I think that is mostly where her difficulties with white women actually came from. We have expectations of ourselves to be able to do it all, and an (unfortunate) tendency to judge other women for their (perceived) shortcomings, because they remind us that we are also imperfect.
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Jan 8, 2017 06:36
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Constantly covering for her sexual predator husband probably didn't help her with women. Against an actual sexual predator...
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Jan 8, 2017 06:38
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Being a very capable politican and devoting a lot of energy to the job doesn't necessarily make you a good politician in the sense that people should want to vote for you, see: UK prime ministers.
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Jan 8, 2017 06:40
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Bel Shazar posted:Against an actual sexual predator...
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Jan 8, 2017 06:52
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Rent-A-Cop posted:"Less rapey than the other guy!" isn't an awesome campaign slogan. And this makes Hillary a sexual predator because.....?
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Jan 8, 2017 06:55
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stone cold posted:And this makes Hillary a sexual predator because.....? Her entire campaign was based on her being just sort of mundane terrible and not like cartoonishly evil, and surprise surprise, that didn't drive out the Democrat voters or inspire independents into her camp.
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Jan 8, 2017 06:58
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Rent-A-Cop posted:It doesn't. It makes her a sexual predator enabler. A great deal of her campaign was based on her being ridiculously qualified, the idea that it was based on her being "sort of mundane terrible" is preposterous.
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Jan 8, 2017 07:00
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Rent-A-Cop posted:It doesn't. It makes her a sexual predator enabler. First off, are wives necessarily accessories to their husband's crimes? How is "her campaign succed lel" relevant to feminism, or the misogyny component running against her?
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Jan 8, 2017 07:00
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stone cold posted:First off, are wives necessarily accessories to their husband's crimes? Although I don't think anyone is going to argue that Hillary was a meek housewife bullied by her powerful husband into supporting him. She chose to protect her and her husband's political careers by defending him and repeatedly attacking his victims. If you can excuse her that, that's your prerogative. Personally I hold it against her.
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Jan 8, 2017 07:08
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I feel like there was no way Hillary could escape the sexism of the early & late 90s. Like Elizabeth Warren is a politician people became aware of in the 2010s so she is viewed through the sexual politics of the 2010s, but Hillary cannot possibly escape the impressions and narrative that was started in the 90s. And while she did do some Cool poo poo I think she had a lot of difficulty thinking beyond the political scenario of the 90s and had trouble taking credit for progressive poo poo she did in the 10s. ...I'm so happy the feminism thread is back! I used to lurk it when it was in EN but then it got weird and I stopped. There was a point when people were making amazing effort posts on women in history; is there anyway people could repost those? I actually copied someone's posts on Cecilia Payne, Liz Hartel and Shan Zheng. I seem to remember posts on the Countess of Carlisle and a woman in Panama who had Jesus/Mary-like idolatry painted about her?
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Jan 8, 2017 07:12
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Nope. It's pretty funny that you use the same rhetoric as a known sexual assaulter to yell at mean ol' Hillary. It's really gross that you assume Hillary had anything to do with Bill's alleged sex crimes and that she had to be skulking in the dark helping him 'cover it up,' by virtue of being his wife. Also, I like your dichotomy of "meek housewife" or "rape enabling sociopathic lady Macbeth." Primo sexism right here. 
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Jan 8, 2017 07:17
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Crocobile posted:
That sounds really neat; I can look for them at some point. Feel free to post the ones you have saved, unless other people say they aren't interested. I mean, I'm interested!
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Jan 8, 2017 07:23
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stone cold posted:Primo sexism right here. Like I said, you can be more forgiving than I am, and that probably makes you a better person. In my opinion Hillary has something to answer for in her attempts to obfuscate and minimize her husband's predatory relationships with women.
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Jan 8, 2017 07:24
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stone cold posted:That sounds really neat; I can look for them at some point. Feel free to post the ones you have saved, unless other people say they aren't interested. I mean, I'm interested! I am super interested too Crocobile! 
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Jan 8, 2017 07:35
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stone cold posted:That sounds really neat; I can look for them at some point. Feel free to post the ones you have saved, unless other people say they aren't interested. I mean, I'm interested! Here's what I have saved! Copy pasted from the old feminism thread (I didn't write these, I don't remember who the posters were!) ... quote:Payne, Cecilia: Since her death in 1979, the woman who discovered what the universe is made of has not so much as received a memorial plaque. Her newspaper obituaries do not mention her greatest discovery. […] Every high school student knows that Isaac Newton discovered gravity, that Charles Darwin discovered evolution, and that Albert Einstein discovered the relativity of time. But when it comes to the composition of our universe, the textbooks simply say that the most abundant atom in the universe is hydrogen. And no one ever wonders how we know. quote:Hartel, Liz: "For fun google about the first Olympics where they removed the restriction that competitors in equestrian events had to be Military in 1952. There was no rule on the books saying only men could compete in Olympic dressage. So in allowing civilian men they accidentally allowed women. quote:Zhang, Shan: Ok let's go into backstory. ...That's what I have saved! I keep a note file of inspiring women in history, so I'm always delighted to have more stuff to add to my list. Crocobile fucked around with this message at 17:29 on Jan 8, 2017 |
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Jan 8, 2017 07:54
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Hawkgirl posted:Let's do it, let's talk about Hillary in the feminism thread. So, I voted for Clinton in the general but it was through clenched teeth. I backed Bernie in the primary and the attacks I saw and personally received from Clinton supporters was nauseating. Stuff like being told by people identifying as feminists that Sanders was like a rapist for holding Clinton to the debates or that I was a traitor to women or had internalized sexism because I had the gall to back a man over a woman. For the most part, I have a lot of respect for Hillary, though some of the things she does gave me serious migraines at times. That said, her supporters heavily turned me off of any possible enthusiasm I might have had for her. It was the same in 2008. There was some real ugly racial rhetoric flying around against Obama. Also, Albright's "special place in hell" comment was reeeeeaaaal cute. There was certainly some internalized sexism going on against Clinton but Hillary wasn't doing herself any favors either with how she ran her campaign.
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Jan 8, 2017 08:13
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BedBuglet posted:So, I voted for Clinton in the general but it was through clenched teeth. I backed Bernie in the primary and the attacks I saw and personally received from Clinton supporters was nauseating. Stuff like being told by people identifying as feminists that Sanders was like a rapist for holding Clinton to the debates or that I was a traitor to women or had internalized sexism because I had the gall to back a man over a woman. This is pretty much me, except for not really respecting politicians in general as a rule. Incidentally, speaking as a black person, I got some hefty racial poo poo from quite a few Hillary supporters during the primary (and the general to a lesser extent). I feel conflicted about this. Like, obviously Hillary is affected by sexism, I think that almost goes without saying. It's one of many things that helped tip this election. On the other hand, though, so am I and I have to live in the real world and go to work and take care of myself and my people in this world, and I really have very little leftover energy to worry myself about someone who has many orders of magnitude more money than I ever will and will never interact with me in any way as an equal.
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Jan 8, 2017 08:44
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Hawkgirl posted:Let's do it, let's talk about Hillary in the feminism thread. If you haven't checked it out, look at her Harlem speech. I love that speech to death because she keeps it real with black people and understands our issues. It's very rare to hear such a candid talk about race like that from white politicians. It turned me from undecided to supporting her.
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Jan 8, 2017 08:51
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I sort of simultaneously respect Hillary Clinton while at the same time not really thinking she's a good person (I don't think she's evil or anything either; I just view her in the same way I would an ambitious business person or something. I just don't think she's some selfless public servant or anything.). I think it is very impressive that she managed to become as prominent of a figure as she did, but at the same time I don't really agree with the narrative that she's some tragic figure - she ultimately began her political career not-filthy-rich and ended it filthy rich, so I think she was definitely rewarded in the end. As for the impact of sexism on the election, it definitely existed. While technically it probably could have made the difference between her winning and losing, the election was close enough that almost anything could have also made the same difference, so it's a little misleading to point to any one factor and say "this caused her to lose." At the end of the day it's sum of all those factors that lead to this particular result; you can't just hypothetically toggle one on or off and predict what the results would have been under those circumstances. I've been a little uncomfortable with how to feel about a lot of the rhetoric about her post-election. There are many arguments I technically agree with, but I feel like they're made with more..."gusto", I guess, than if the culprit had been a man. Like the things people are complaining about are valid, but people find them extra-offensive because the guilty person is a woman, if that makes sense.
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Jan 8, 2017 09:25
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Crocobile posted:stuff about the olympics This is super interesting and I didn't know any of this! Thanks for posting!
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Jan 8, 2017 12:59
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While I don't think Hillary was the best candidate, I can't pretend I wasn't a little crushed when I woke up and saw Trump had won. To me it just felt like an entire nation telling us, we as women, will never be good enough. What her husband did and how she has handled that is hosed. As are many of her policies. Regardless, she was far and away more qualified than Trump on every single respect. A woman who has actually dedicated her life to politics, losing to a man who not only has no political background, but very openly talks about women and POC and disabled and every single minority/vulnerable population in the most sickening ways, a man who bankrupted a casino! That's who won? It was downright insulting. 54 40 or fuck fucked around with this message at 13:09 on Jan 8, 2017 |
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Jan 8, 2017 13:05
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Hillary Clinton lost for a couple different reasons, but her god awful incompetent campaign was the yuge one. I want to believe Hillary is a smart person but just about every single campaign decision turned out to be mindboggling stupid. If you lived in Wisconsin or Michigan, why on Earth would you vote for the person that didn't bother to visit your state once. Or actively hostile to the people that were. Someone post that Politico article. Nissin Cup Nudist fucked around with this message at 15:52 on Jan 8, 2017 |
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Jan 8, 2017 15:49
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:Hillary Clinton lost for a couple different reasons, but her god awful incompetent campaign was the yuge one. I want to believe Hillary is a smart person but just about every single campaign decision turned out to be the wrong one. On the other hand, she visited Pennsylvania many times, and still wasn't able to take it, so I'm not sure more visits would have helped.
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Jan 8, 2017 15:52
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BedBuglet posted:So, I voted for Clinton in the general but it was through clenched teeth. I backed Bernie in the primary and the attacks I saw and personally received from Clinton supporters was nauseating. Stuff like being told by people identifying as feminists that Sanders was like a rapist for holding Clinton to the debates or that I was a traitor to women or had internalized sexism because I had the gall to back a man over a woman. There are stories that make me really feel for Hillary, to be sure. Like the one where she's taking the law school exams and boys are heckling her saying she's taking some ambiguous more deserving boy's place (and that he'll die in Vietnam because she's taking the law school spot that is rightfully his). It is totally possible to acknowledge that sexism happened a lot to HRC, and ALSO to dislike her platform as a candidate. before this all went south, I used to say "Hillary is going to be president. That doesn't mean I have to like it." 
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Jan 8, 2017 15:55
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:Hillary Clinton lost for a couple different reasons, but her god awful incompetent campaign was the yuge one. I want to believe Hillary is a smart person but just about every single campaign decision turned out to be mindboggling stupid. I don't think it was any more incompetent than Kerry's or Gore's, to be honest. It was certainly far more competent than Trump's. And even if not, it's still not sufficient to explain why she lost to a man who, if suggested as the villain for an episode of Captain Planet, would be rejected for being too cartoonish. I think Clinton was just expecting a majority of people not to vote for Biff from Back to the Future II, which I find fairly reasonable given that most Trump voters I talked to weren't themselves able to explain why they did it other than that they really hated Clinton or what they perceived to be the status quo. Like, I don't think sexism lost Clinton the election on its own since her campaign made mistakes and her most visible achievements and public reputation come from the increasingly-despised era of third-way neoliberalism. There is a not-wrong case to be made that she was the wrong person to run, as she's always been a center-right capitalist and we are now all eating tons of poo poo caused by the predations of 90s neoliberals like her. Plus she's the one who's been burning all those children alive with drone bombs for the last four years while Americans have been beginning to notice their own foreign policy for the first time. Yet Kerry and Gore were also third-way neoliberals and they probably would have massacred Trump. There is a very strong case to make that sexism made it far easier to ignore Trump's incredible unsuitability because when compared with a woman who triggers a bunch of nasty misogynistic hatred he simply seems more like a normal man instead of what he really is. And her platform this time drew a lot from older tax-and-spend ideas and even some socialist ideas, so she wasn't repeating all the mistakes of her past. I AM GRANDO fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Jan 8, 2017 |
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Jan 8, 2017 17:01
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Jack Gladney posted:I don't think it was any more incompetent than Kerry's or Gore's, to be honest. It was certainly far more competent than Trump's. And even if not, it's still not sufficient to explain why she lost to a man who, if suggested as the villain for an episode of Captain Planet, would be rejected for being too cartoonish. I think Clinton was just expecting a majority of people not to vote for Biff from Back to the Future II, which I find fairly reasonable given that most Trump voters I talked to weren't themselves able to explain why they did it other than that they really hated Clinton or what they perceived to be the status quo. I find this pretty bloody mysterious too. Trump, as you say, is like a cartoon villain. Liberals are currently going crazy trying to explain it. Russian hacking and propaganda seem to be the favorite explanation at the moment, and I find it persuasive. It's very interesting how people who hate Clinton all parrot the same Russian-sponsored talking points like kids gabbling a nursery rhyme, with no distinction between Bernie fans and Trump voters. Russian propagandists seem to have found the key to the American psyche, which is quite amazing really. [/quote] Like, I don't think sexism lost Clinton the election on its own since her campaign made mistakes and her most visible achievements and public reputation come from the increasingly-despised era of third-way neoliberalism. There is a not-wrong case to be made that she was the wrong person to run, as she's always been a center-right capitalist and we are now all eating tons of poo poo caused by the predations of 90s neoliberals like her. Plus she's the one who's been burning all those children alive with drone bombs for the last four years while Americans have been beginning to notice their own foreign policy for the first time. [/quote] I don't think most Trump voters know what neoliberalism *is* and if they did, they wouldn't care, as Republicans support it even more strongly. The name is misleading; it's not a "liberal" philosophy. It's an economic policy currently espoused by both Republican and Democrat mainstreamers. Jack Gladney posted:Yet Kerry and Gore were also third-way neoliberals and they probably would have massacred Trump. There is a very strong case to make that sexism made it far easier to ignore Trump's incredible unsuitability because when compared with a woman who triggers a bunch of nasty misogynistic hatred he simply seems more like a normal man instead of what he really is. And her platform this time drew a lot from older tax-and-spend ideas and even some socialist ideas, so she wasn't repeating all the mistakes of her past. Yeah, you just have to talk about Clinton on one of the political threads on this forum and you get a lot of deep, psychologically based loathing, with nary a mention of her politically similar husband. He just doesn't get the hate. Wonder why.
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Jan 8, 2017 17:09
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Jack Gladney posted:most Trump voters I talked to weren't themselves able to explain why they did it other than that they really hated Clinton or what they perceived to be the status quo. Anti establishment sentiment is a powerful motivating factor and in that sense Clinton being an experienced, very much establishment politician, and advertising herself as such, is not a positive. Trump's approach was not to try to outperform Hilary but instead to try and spin everything she said about herself as a negative. Which worked. It's not all his doing because anti-establishment sentiment is strong in the US and is increasing across the globe, but listing Clinton's positive qualities should take into account that they are not necessarily regarded as positive universally. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Jan 8, 2017 |
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Jan 8, 2017 17:14
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BarbarianElephant posted:I don't think most Trump voters know what neoliberalism *is* and if they did, they wouldn't care, as Republicans support it even more strongly. The name is misleading; it's not a "liberal" philosophy. It's an economic policy currently espoused by both Republican and Democrat mainstreamers. trump voters know what it is, they just don't call it neoliberalism. The fact the trump's presidency is largely going to be 'neoliberalism but more of it' probably hasn't sunk in with them yet but it will eventually
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Jan 8, 2017 17:42
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BarbarianElephant posted:I don't think most Trump voters know what neoliberalism *is* and if they did, they wouldn't care, as Republicans support it even more strongly. The name is misleading; it's not a "liberal" philosophy. It's an economic policy currently espoused by both Republican and Democrat mainstreamers. It quite literally is a "liberal" philosophy. The misleading idea is that Democrats and Republicans aren't both different types of liberal.
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Jan 8, 2017 17:46
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:Hillary Clinton lost for a couple different reasons, but her god awful incompetent campaign was the yuge one. I want to believe Hillary is a smart person but just about every single campaign decision turned out to be mindboggling stupid. Hillary gave a speech about the economy in Detroit and was never once openly hostile to anyone in our area, what the actual gently caress are you talking about? Why would you think it'd be cool to make blatant lies about a woman in the feminism thread?
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Jan 8, 2017 17:47
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Who What Now posted:Hillary gave a speech about the economy in Detroit and was never once openly hostile to anyone in our area, what the actual gently caress are you talking about? Why would you think it'd be cool to make blatant lies about a woman in the feminism thread?
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Jan 8, 2017 17:50
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FactsAreUseless posted:This isn't the thread to rehash the election, but there are plenty of stories about the Clinton campaign mishandling basic aspects of state-level campaigning, especially in the Midwest. Nobody is making poo poo up, they're just referencing stuff that came out post-election. Turns out losing candidates usually made mistakes. I'm not saying her election was perfect or that she couldn't have done much more to campaign in the Midwest, but saying she never visited Michigan is, in fact, completely and undeniably made up.
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Jan 8, 2017 17:59
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BarbarianElephant posted:I don't think most Trump voters know what neoliberalism *is* and if they did, they wouldn't care, as Republicans support it even more strongly. The name is misleading; it's not a "liberal" philosophy. It's an economic policy currently espoused by both Republican and Democrat mainstreamers. It's very likely true that most republicans think think neoliberalism is good or would if they knew what it was, but naive economic resentment was the centerpiece of Trump's campaign as much as anything was, and it seems like all those people destroyed by the death of American manufacturing have an accurate-enough sense that Bill Clinton did that to them and didn't care (why they never figured out that Reagan did it to them worse I'll never know). The boomers I know who hated Clinton this time just repeated all the right-wing radio points from 25 years ago verbatim (CNN is the Clinton News Network hahaha the media will do anything to cover up for slick Hillary). Sanders' successes have definitely done a ton to expose the orthodoxy of neoliberalism to young people especially, and it does seem for the moment that there is energy growing behind a new left that might finally overturn the Democratic establishment (maybe...I don't know). So much of the vulgar populism in this election was like 10 degrees at most away from realizing that capitalism caused all the misery of the rust belt swing states. I AM GRANDO fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Jan 8, 2017 |
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Jan 8, 2017 18:00
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I feel like even her whole campaign and its failings is less relevant than some of the disgusting poo poo that came from it- from the anti-Hillary camp, voters, other politicians. A lot of the vitriol aimed at Trump was appearance based and abject horror of his absolute ignorance but it was goddamn disheartening to see all the Lewinsky jokes, the jokes Trump was making about women constantly through his entire campaign. The sexism and misogyny that was directed at Hillary was sick. I need to be enlightened, because I'm not American and I don't know much about past presidents, how bad was Hillary in comparison to former presidents? It can't have been much worse than Trump is going to be. I just can't wrap my head around it.
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Jan 8, 2017 18:03
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Are we really going to pretend the only way to see Hillary as being complicit in what Bill did to multiple women is to blame her because she's his wife? Come on.
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Jan 8, 2017 18:07
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This poster loves police brutality, but only when its against minorities!
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DeusExMachinima posted:Are we really going to pretend the only way to see Hillary as being complicit in what Bill did to multiple women is to blame her because she's his wife? Come on. Is it really complicity when a woman's public-figure husband cheats on her? What was she supposed to do? I find it very hard to judge the personal choices of people in situations that I could never experience. I don't know that there's a correct answer, and that proper understanding probably entails her own knowledge of and emotions about her husband. Or are you saying he is actually a rapist?
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Jan 8, 2017 18:18
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Who What Now posted:I'm not saying her election was perfect or that she couldn't have done much more to campaign in the Midwest, but saying she never visited Michigan is, in fact, completely and undeniably made up. I was referring to the Politico article with the Michigan bit, my bad. She did never visit Wisconsin after the primary tho e: http://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/michigan-hillary-clinton-trump-232547 everything is just 
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Jan 8, 2017 18:42
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Jack Gladney posted:Is it really complicity when a woman's public-figure husband cheats on her? What was she supposed to do? I find it very hard to judge the personal choices of people in situations that I could never experience. I don't know that there's a correct answer, and that proper understanding probably entails her own knowledge of and emotions about her husband. Or are you saying he is actually a rapist? The conspiracy I've always heard is that Bill raped even more women than have publicly accused him, and Hillary silenced them because she's a soulless evil witch who cares only for power.
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Jan 8, 2017 18:45
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Jack Gladney posted:Is it really complicity when a woman's public-figure husband cheats on her? What was she supposed to do? I find it very hard to judge the personal choices of people in situations that I could never experience. I don't know that there's a correct answer, and that proper understanding probably entails her own knowledge of and emotions about her husband. Or are you saying he is actually a rapist? She went to the press and made personal attacks on women who had come out and had accused Bill of sexual assault and/or infidelity. I don't really hold it against her too much. I voted for Hillary in the election and also the primary. She was just doing what she had to do to defend her and her husband's political careers. However, posters in this thread would call what she did 'blaming the victim' and wouldn't be defending those actions if the person doing the blaming were anybody but Hillary. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 8, 2017 18:47
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Jack Gladney posted:Is it really complicity when a woman's public-figure husband cheats on her? What was she supposed to do? I find it very hard to judge the personal choices of people in situations that I could never experience. I don't know that there's a correct answer, and that proper understanding probably entails her own knowledge of and emotions about her husband. Or are you saying he is actually a rapist? Oh no, I'm not talking about Lewinsky and I don't think that has anything to do with Hillary. Although of course plenty of Republicans do make jokes at Hillary's expense about it. But there are other women who've come forward about Bill being pushy or creepy or outright accusing him of rape and we know how rare it is for those accusations to be false. It's not unreasonable to expect Trump's close associates, including his campaign manager who's a woman, to disentangle themselves from him and openly denounce him for what he said and admitted to doing. Just being silent isn't enough. The same is to be expected of anyone else on the public stage.
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Jan 8, 2017 18:49
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