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HEY GAL, can you tell us more stories about hangovers? Because this one is amazing.quote:When daybreak came the next morning, Cerball attacked all of them with his troops, and he did not give up after they had been slaughtered until they had been routed, and they had scattered in all directions. Cerball himself fought hard in this battle, and the amount he had drunk the night before hampered him greatly, and he vomited much, and that gave him immense strength; and he urged his people loudly and harshly against the Norwegians, and more than half of the army was killed there, and those who escaped fled to their ships. This defeat took place at Achad mic Erclaige. Cerball turned back afterwards with triumph and great spoils.
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Well, I'm done carrying my nephew around on my back for a while. It felt lovely to just peace out of the conversation, so here comes a super-long post that's not really going to be very informative and is going to touch a bunch of different topics. Feel free to scroll past if you don't care. VanSandman posted:Okay, you've made good points. Why did Yugoslavia explode then? Well, there's several parts of the collapse that had very different origins. But, in general: Nationalism. Fear. Injustice. Economic crisis. Power grabs by influential, amoral individuals open to using any avenue that gave them more power. Opportunistic foreign meddling during the 80s with the goal of general destabilization rather than actually promoting a specific cause, good or bad. That last two wouldn't have been possible without the first four arising on their own, though. SeanBeansShako posted:I feel that unless you lived through the events and are part of the country/culture sometimes you may never really know or get it. And that really does make things harder to understand and get across. I'd actually disagree with this. For one, I didn't live through it, not really. Sure, one of my childhood memories is my hometown being hit by a guided missile, and so is watching a burning stealth bomber speeding toward the horizon, and the delayed and faint but present sound and *feel* of it crashing, but the wars were over by the time I was able to really grasp what was happening (most of the damage the bombing did to me was to leave me incapable of fearing death the usual way. I fear pain as much as anyone else, maybe even a bit more, and feel a deep discomfort at watching footage of airstrikes and artillery fire, but the idea of my own death leaves me utterly nonplussed. Believe me when I say that this isn't a good thing.) This isn't really comparable to what the refugees and the people who experienced any sort of proximity to any sort of ground warfare of the Yugoslav wars had to deal with, and it'd be lovely of me to pretend I have some sort of innate understanding of that. What I did live through, and experience quite intensely, though, is the aftermath. Second, I disagree with the assessment that the war is impossible to really understand if you're an outsider. The narrative that the war is some Lovecraftian monster that defies comprehension by a sane mind is as dumb as the narrative that it had one single simple cause. The former tries to hide something by muddying the water, the latter tries to hide something by asking you to focus on one thing to the exclusion of everything else. The conflict is "merely" complex. What this lack of context does do is massively reduce the amount of effort that someone who acts knowledgeable needs to convince you of their version of events just by leaving out a few crucial details, and dropping a well aimed half-truth or two to guide you, and letting you piece together events yourself from the pieces that were carefully chosen to ensure there's only one picture you can end up making, bonus point for letting you think you did the hard work yourself. In addition, the distance greatly reduces the chance of encountering a sufficient number of arguments to shake you out of your new point of view - it's simply human that it takes a lot less evidence for us to gain an opinion than it takes for us to change it. I'll address this a bit later in this post, but doing this, using the goodwill I gained here to stealth in some pure bullshit that would get cemented as fact to people reading what I post simply because of the lack of people capable/willing to call me out on it in a well-argued manner is something I've been quite afraid of doing by accident, and is why I steered clear of certain topics. To be banal for a second, if there's a conversation in which I start a "if you don't like it here, you and your kind can always leave" tirade at someone, it doesn't take a scholar to figure out that I'm being an rear end in a top hat, and that I can and should be called out for it. But how can you spot me using our local dogwhistles if you never had significant interaction with people who live here? Hogge Wild posted:nice meltdown Thanks.  Serious answer to a not very serious post: This is much more of an issue in D&D than here, but simply by A) sometimes being funny, or making good posts, or being "unexpectedly" reasonable and B) being a Serb, I run the risk of being "one of the good ones". There's two consequences (well, three, but the third is a bit more personal) of this: First of all, it results in my posts sometimes being given much more weight than they really deserve. I am not a magical font of knowledge of all things Serb/Yugoslav/Balkan, and I'm certainly not magically objective when talking about these. Second, when something about Serbs/Yugoslavia/Balkans is said by someone else, there's an implication that if I'm not actively arguing against it, it's because I completely agree with it. Third is that I feel like I'm covered in sewage if I go along with this without doing something about it. My options boil down to this: Either I stop posting completely, or I go along with it and accept the role and ignore the feeling of disgust, or I drop the hammer by being angry, passionate, and 'unreasonable' every once in a while, or I devote a ridiculous amount of time and effort that I really can't afford to correcting people who are WRONG. ON THE INTERNET. It's part of why I backed out of a lot of D&D threads. gently caress dealing with that bullshit. If you think I'm giving too much importance to my posts on a comedy forum, that's a perfectly valid point. But what I described above has been happening (including more than one goon in D&D explicitly referring to me as one of the good ones, albeit in different contexts). Also, the people reading my posts and potentially being influenced by them are quite real, and sometimes my words reach surprisingly far. Schenck v. U.S. posted:I'm interested in what he has to say. OK, this part of my post is going to sound weird, and probably somewhat ranty. I'll start with directly addressing your post, and I'll also veer into seemingly unrelated stuff to try to explain a broader point, and I'll say things that sound like rephrased parts of what you wrote. I'll try, and possibly fail, to show how the main issues don't actually require harkening back too far into the past, and how some of the extremely important issues contributing to the collapse regularly get drowned out by outwardly more visible stuff. (Which is to say, repeated simplifications of the events that keep leaving out the same stuff over and over again add up over time to distort the image quite significantly) But before I start, the claims that Yugoslavia was invented by the Versailles, and that the languages are separate, are so incredibly, mind-bogglingly wrong that it kinda set the tone of the rest of your post to me, and caused me to overreact to some degree. To give you a personal language-related experience, it's been kinda hilarious listening to a Croatian linguist on Croatian TV trying to tiptoe around the minefield of nationalism-triggers to explain that, uh, yeah, Serbs and Croats speak the same language but feel free to call it Croatian, just like Serbs are free to call it Serbian, it's not like it's being stolen out of your mouth. Bonus points for watching it replayed on some Serbian TV station with actual subtitles added (  ) that read like someone just replaced one of the spoken words with a synonym every once in a while.Other than their obvious use in national self-validation, another big reason for all the goddamn language issues is that major urban centers like Belgrade and Zagreb consider themselves to be bastions of civilization surrounded by hicks, and that the hicks are corrupting their precious Back to my main point, there's an ongoing effort of suppressing Yugoslav legacy in ex-Yu countries, and twisting it to fit various nationalist narratives. There's a bizarre back-and-forth between denying Yugoslavism and claiming the Yugoslav communist fight against fascists as a nation's own. Yugoslav can even be a dirty word and an accusation made against someone to discredit them. And yet, there's many now fiercely nationalist people who, when they fully open up to you, will admit, with anger or with sorrow, that they considered themselves Yugoslav before the war. There really was a strong and genuine desire to live together among a significant portion of the population, and it should absolutely not be discounted. Rather, one should try to consider the sum of factors that was necessary to overcome it. (I mean, one of them is easy. Murderous assholes who don't consider you the same people are coming after you and people like you, while the people whom that particular pack of murderous assholes aren't trying to kill value their own safety more than yours and leave you to your fate. Crisis is good at carving weak divides into strong ones, particularly if one side of the divide has what they perceive to be an easy avenue to safety) This is not a defense of Yugoslav nationalism mind you. It's done plenty of harmful poo poo of its own. It's just a lot less, for lack of a better word, tangible. It was hidden in the idea that differences in Yugoslavia didn't matter and that acknowledging them was actively harmful, and that anyone who dared point them out was a threat to the nation. Tensions often arose from genuine problems that could and should have been resolved, but there could be no specific problem solving because we're beyond such petty problems, communism solves everything, so it was all shoved under a rug where it just rotted until the day the rug was pulled and the thing under it was a lot uglier and smellier than it was when it was put there. (Hell, the "communism solves everything" thing can be seen in how there's first a massive leap in women's rights and then it mostly stagnates. All women's issues are solved, comrades, please ignore the upper echelons of the nation's leadership being a big old sausage fest) There was a vague, fluid Yugoslav nationalism among the upper class - military officers, party leadership, influential individuals, etc - that wasn't about loyalty to the nation as much as it was about loyalty to power it represented. Once the nation fractured, these people just sorted into whatever other source of power was the most convenient. The mentality remained the same, though. Ironically, much of the resurgence of nationalism that fractured the nation arose as a reaction to these people. They were great at loving people over in a way that only ever let people see the poo poo that's happening to their own group, but not the poo poo that's happening to other groups. (As an aside, gently caress Tito, and gently caress people fellating his rotten dead cock. I'm sick and tired of hearing how a big strong man was the only thing that was keeping us barbarians from killing each-other. One of Tito's 'brilliant' moves at the end of WW2 was to start a classic Stalinist purge of Serbian 'kulaks' on Kosovo [hey. of you survived the mass murders done by the the SS and Albanian fascist militias, that means you clearly were a traitor to the people, because how else could you have survived] and encouraging more Albanians to move into abandoned Serbian homes as a part of his attempt to entice Albania to join Yugoslavia, before the breakdown of his relations with Stalin ended the project and he decided to 'fix' the issues it caused by loving over the Albanians on Kosovo hard and cementing them further as second-class citizens compared to Serbs. Pah.) One of the interesting to consider actions of the Yugoslav government was the targeted assassination of Serbian, Croatian, and Albanian nationalists in USA and Western Europe. On one hand, fascist, terrorist shitstains who fled there after WW2, or, to be more precise, their radicalized heirs and followers, were pretty significant contributors to the disaster of the 90s. On the other hand, state-sponsored terrorism tends not to be a good thing, and it didn't resolve internal problems without which the assholes in question wouldn't be able to do a drat thing. One last thing to add here is that I'm always skeptical of explicitly hindsight perspectives, since they tend to somewhat overfit the model of the problem without taking into account the expected and necessary noise that's going to be caused by events outside the scope of the analysis. So the view of Yugoslavia (the area and the people rather than the country itself) keeps flip-flopping between "everyone there wanted to be together since forever with minor awful exceptions" to "everyone hated each other since forever with minor nice exceptions" depending on what point the author is trying to convey, with arguments for both being almost identical. I probably did a poor job at it, but my intent here was to show you how your initial flawed talking points have a major influence on the entire rest of your analysis, while still not twisting it to the point where it breaks and it becomes obvious that there is something wrong about it - which is precisely why I consider them dangerous and something that needs to be called out. Still, did I just straight-up dodge most of your question? Yes. As to why, I'll explain in the next part of my post. EggsAisle posted:You know this much better than I do, but there's a whole lot of ignorance abroad surrounding the wars. FWIW, I'm interested in learning more about all of that. You're a clear and articulate writer and I'd love to read more if and when you feel like it. Suggestions for reputable sources are also welcome. Ha. Being clear and articulate means nothing if the content is bullshit. The most interesting and thought-provoking words I've heard about the war came from an old Bosniak dude who spent most of the war navigating a warzone to bring supplies to a hospital in Mostar and he sure as gently caress wasn't calm or polite. Turns out, people tend to be passionate about things that matter to their lives and things they care about, who could've guessed? As for reputable sources, I'm sorry - I know none, at least not in written form. I wish I did, since it would make my attempts to figure out what the gently caress happened to us a lot easier. Everything I tried ended up being bitter disappointment. To use a figure of speech, there'd be a round peg that it kept trying to ram down a square hole again and again and again and again, or worse, carefully scraping the edges of the peg until it somehow fits in while still telling you it's the peg you started with. (hell, I've gained an extreme distrust of written sources, at least with regards to our history, as a result - starting from my schoolbooks many years ago and extending to most of the stuff I've read since) Most of the actual insight I gained in that regard came from actually talking to people. And something very important to note here - I am not actually knowledgeable about the war. I consider my own knowledge of Yugoslav history, especially the 90s war, to be embarrassingly poor. Which is the main reason why I usually avoid involving myself in discussions of recent Yugoslav history. I've mostly been limiting myself in these thread to stuff before the end of WW2, stuff that my family experienced, or calling out bigoted views, and poo poo that treats people here like they're something less than human. Most recent example being me grudgingly calling out a goon's portrayal of WW2 Croats as all being fascists in perfect lockstep with one another because, well, they weren't, regardless of my deep personal hatred of Croatian fascism. I'd loving love there being more people on SA who live in ex-Yu and are willing to genuinely talk about relevant issues (both for the sake of visibility to people from outside, and SA's ability to generally filter out Youtube comments section fodder posters since I'm not fond of dealing with yet another conspiracy theory about Serbs secretly being Arabs), though I imagine I'd mostly just listen instead of talk. Pretty much the only place on Something Awful where I've felt semi-comfortable discussing touchy topics in was the D&D maps thread, and that's mostly because of the number of ex-Yu goons present there willing and capable of calling me out if I start talking out of my rear end, and a distinct lack of Clancy-obsessed Americans that infest the Eastern Europe thread and feel the need to state their opinion on every single loving thing, every single loving time, again and again and again. And Jesus Christ, the tone policing that happens whenever a heated debate/discussion between two people from the Balkans actually starts, and assholes start running in to remind everyone that we're all unreasonable barbarians who shout a lot and should be made to shut up or ignored. Holy poo poo, this was 18000 characters. SimonCat posted:Keep in mind that every side in the Yugoslav wars of the 90s has really strong opinions, so take anything My Dad says with a grain of salt. I'm not saying he's wrong, but I've heard enough Serbs claim Kosovo as Serbia to disagree with him. Ugh, the barbarians have opinions Don't trust him, he's a Serb Good to know that men like you are keeping peace around the world.
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Jan 8, 2017 22:11
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Thanks for the post. Sincerely.
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Jan 8, 2017 23:01
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Ensign Expendable posted:HEY GAL, can you tell us more stories about hangovers? Because this one is amazing.
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Jan 8, 2017 23:07
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my dad posted:
You should seriously consider recording a few of these conversations with people and putting what you think of it into a longer-form description of what you've learned. Those of us in the trade call that "conducting interviews" and "writing a book." Jokes aside, you have a really unique perspective and a really unique ability to get the sort of reflections that most of the pundits and experts out there wish they had. Maybe you don't have the specific knowledge about military maneuvers or the policy views of Milosevic's cousin's third nephew but that's poo poo that you can either research or just hand-wave away as not being key to the argument you're making. Seriously, just a 300 page book on "views of the Yugoslav conflicts from those who lived through it" would be an amazing starting point for anyone who wants to carry the ball further with ~scholarly analysis~.
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Jan 8, 2017 23:41
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Cyrano4747 posted:Jokes aside, you have a really unique perspective and a really unique ability to get the sort of reflections that most of the pundits and experts out there wish they had. content: this is a painting of an auto-da-fe held in Madrid in 1680. The painting was made in 83. Look at the soldiers in the left foreground, way down at the bottom of the painting.  two things here: (1) soldiers still dress more brightly than civilians, especially in spain where every civilian who can wears black (2) there was a brief and funny period right before pikes stopped being used altogether (except in northeastern europe) that they got real small
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Jan 8, 2017 23:49
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HEY GAL posted:(2) there was a brief and funny period right before pikes stopped being used altogether (except in northeastern europe) that they got real small
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Jan 8, 2017 23:51
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Why do all the Spanish civilians wear black if able?
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Jan 8, 2017 23:51
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Boiled Water posted:Why do all the Spanish civilians wear black if able?
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Jan 8, 2017 23:53
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And why was it only if able? Was black dye expensive, or only allowed for certain classes or something?
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Jan 8, 2017 23:53
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Koramei posted:And why was it only if able? Was black dye expensive, or only allowed for certain classes or something? all these things make it even more expensive than other dyed fabric edit: except for the red that you get from cochineal, which was very very expensive and brought in a shitload of revenue for the Monarchy of Spain HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 23:57 on Jan 8, 2017 |
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Jan 8, 2017 23:55
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Huh, cool. That's strange though- in Joseon Korea the soldiers would wear black and white, and I knew the white was because it was cheap (also why Korean commoners exclusively wore white) so I figured the black was for the same reason. Maybe the dying process or ingredients were different in East Asia. e: alternatively maybe it was actually just very dark grey but gets referred to as black today.  I hadn't given this much thought before but now I'm curious
Koramei fucked around with this message at 00:07 on Jan 9, 2017 |
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Jan 9, 2017 00:00
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my dad posted:Ugh, the barbarians have opinions Isn't he doing exactly what you requested by not treating you as "one of the good ones?" Really we should all take everything we read online with a grain of salt. Admittedly he said it in a kinda dickish way (addressing the crowd rather than you directly) but eh. I personally really like the metaphor of a Lovecraftian monster for intercommunal violence. Not in that it defies comprehension, but because it seems to exist as some kind of lurking primordial menace hidden within our very blood, waiting for some foolish human to call it forth to destroy mankind in a feverish orgy of unthinking violence. In Salmon Rushdie's novel Midnight's Children mass violence is a looming threat oppressing the protagonist throughout much of the narrative, and the by the end he literally comes to believe his own body is being pulled apart by the same forces dividing the Indian subcontinent.
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Jan 9, 2017 00:07
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Siivola posted:So, uh, spears? triggered
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Jan 9, 2017 00:09
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That's an amazing picture but i cant look at it without trying to figure out the perspective on the middle section til my head hurts. Is the crowd receding under the arches like, painted on the floor, or what's going on there.
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Jan 9, 2017 00:19
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swamp waste posted:That's an amazing picture but i cant look at it without trying to figure out the perspective on the middle section til my head hurts. Is the crowd receding under the arches like, painted on the floor, or what's going on there. Two lowered terraces with a bridge running horizontally between them, the people behind the arches are under the floor above. I think. Perspective took a long time to develop in art, the concept of a vanishing point is a surprisingly modern invention so it's rare that you'll find historical art that doesn't struggle with it.
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Jan 9, 2017 00:25
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HEY GAL posted:triggered you're thinking of muskets i believe
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Jan 9, 2017 00:46
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Medium Tank Mk.III Queue: KH-50 et al, PzIV, PzIII Ausf. A, PzIII Ausf. B through D, SR tanks Available for request:  T2E1 Light Tank M3A1 Combat Car M1 Howitzer Motor Carriage T-18  A1E1 Independent Infantry Tank Mk.I  LTP T-37 with ShKAS ZIK-20 T-12 and T-24 HTZ-16 Wartime modifications of the T-37 and T-38 SG-122 76 mm gun mod of the Matilda Tank destroyers on the T-30 and T-40 chassis 45 mm M-42 gun Soviet tractor tanks 02SS Aerosan NEW  L-10 and L-30 Strv m/40 Strv m/42 Landsverk prototypes 1943-1951 EMIL and KRV NEW  Trials of the TKS and C2P in the USSR 37 mm anti-tank gun  SR tanks  Renault NC Renault D1 Renault R35 Renault D2 Renault R40 Char B1 bis Char B1 ter NEW 25 mm Hotchkiss gun NEW  PzI Ausf. B PzI Ausf. C PzII Ausf. a though b PzII Ausf. c through C Pak 97/38 Pz.Sfl.IVb 7.5 cm Pak 41 NEW  LT vz 35 CKD TNH and LTP (Tanque 39)
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Jan 9, 2017 01:16
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my dad posted:
You said exactly what I said, that you can't take one person's opinions as gospel just because they're from the area. You being a Serb doesn't make you the last word on the subject anymore than my peacekeeping tours there do. I do remember flying over the foundations of villages that weren't there anymore. I also remember the Serbs north of Mitrovica blockading NATO convoys, and one in the Stripce valley telling one of the pilot's that he hopes the devil fucks his mother after the pilot accidentally blew over the guy's hay stack. Also one of our Albanian interpreters relating how he was nearly killed by Serbs and how he would disown his daughter if she married one. On the other hand, we had some good parallel missions with the Serbs as well.
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Jan 9, 2017 02:05
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My dad, seconding the calls for you to write a book. I promise I will preorder or pirate or something in between it if you do.
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Jan 9, 2017 02:18
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Ensign Expendable posted:Medium Tank Mk.III What's this 'Great Tank Scandal' of 1927 the article alludes to?
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Jan 9, 2017 02:21
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Fangz posted:What's this 'Great Tank Scandal' of 1927 the article alludes to? Pasholok promised an article on the topic. I can't find anything about it on my own.
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Jan 9, 2017 02:48
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my dad posted:Second, when something about Serbs/Yugoslavia/Balkans is said by someone else, there's an implication that if I'm not actively arguing against it, it's because I completely agree with it. Please don't feel this way, by the way. I guess if you comment immediately after a Balkan discussion I'd assume you don't have an issue with it, but nobody expects everyone to be reading every discussion remotely related to them at all times, or that they'll necessarily feel like always weighing in even if they're the resident authority.
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Jan 9, 2017 02:54
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SimonCat posted:You said exactly what I said, that you can't take one person's opinions as gospel just because they're from the area. You being a Serb doesn't make you the last word on the subject anymore than my peacekeeping tours there do. Well, no single individual has the complete picture. That holds true in any war, though this war (sequence of wars, rather) seems even more fragmented than most. One thing I've wondered is how and why the violence spiraled so wildly out of control. It takes a pretty significant breakdown to bring people to that level of brutality. I could be wrong; maybe ethnic fault lines are just self-destruct buttons for civilization. We've seen it happen all over the world. But I'd like to think that most people in the modern era aren't a hair trigger pull away from war crimes, so I can't help but wonder, what went so terribly, horribly wrong? I don't accept the barbarians narrative, but there's a striking lack of clarity about the Yugoslav Wars in general.
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Jan 9, 2017 03:34
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I think that the entirety of history up to this point would suggest that a surprising number of people are indeed a hair trigger pull away from war crimes so that may be the weak link in your belief.
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Jan 9, 2017 03:47
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EggsAisle posted:Well, no single individual has the complete picture. That holds true in any war, though this war (sequence of wars, rather) seems even more fragmented than most. One thing I've wondered is how and why the violence spiraled so wildly out of control. It takes a pretty significant breakdown to bring people to that level of brutality. I could be wrong; maybe ethnic fault lines are just self-destruct buttons for civilization. We've seen it happen all over the world. But I'd like to think that most people in the modern era aren't a hair trigger pull away from war crimes, so I can't help but wonder, what went so terribly, horribly wrong? I don't accept the barbarians narrative, but there's a striking lack of clarity about the Yugoslav Wars in general. I think that things are a lot more fragile than you'd think they are because part of what gets things going is a cycle where the people who start violence on each side stand to gain power from it because it scares people who wouldn't otherwise get involved in the bloodshed angry enough to perpetuate it and they start rallying to the people who started it. Frankly looking at the west these days I'm just hoping we don't start yet another loving genocide.
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Jan 9, 2017 04:20
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There is really nothing wrong with contributing to the subject now, if you ever get the chance my dad do write that book yeah.
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Jan 9, 2017 04:40
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P-Mack posted:unironically appreciate the correction A further correction - the Avia S-199 was actually a Me-109 with a Jumo 211 power unit and prop from a He-111 bomber. The giant prop caused the plane to have particularly nasty handling characteristics, and the engine design removed the hub-mounted cannon. The plane was also unreliable.
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Jan 9, 2017 04:57
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my dad posted:(both for the sake of visibility to people from outside, and SA's ability to generally filter out Youtube comments section fodder posters since I'm not fond of dealing with yet another conspiracy theory about Serbs secretly being Arabs) What? That sounds incredibly retarded for lack of better word.
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Jan 9, 2017 05:21
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I guess it's like that thing where all your friends/enemies are secretly Turks depending on whether you think that's a good/bad thing.
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Jan 9, 2017 06:04
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It gets recommended a lot but anyone wondering just how hair trigger away your average dude is from being a war criminal should read Browning's Ordinary Men. It's short and very accessible.
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Jan 9, 2017 07:52
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Some idiot called Russians "de-nationalized Lithuanians" the other day, so stupid ideas abound. Twenty years from now, in the SA equivalent on the noosphere, some Syrian guy is getting passionate about Syrian Civil War.
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Jan 9, 2017 08:19
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early modern response to blogging, fake news, opinion pieces, and people getting all angried up in the media The World Is Ruled And Governed by Opinion, 1642 Opinion represented as a blindfolded woman crowned with the Tower of Babel, seated in a tree from which hang pamphlets and broadsides, with terrestrial globe on her lap, chameleon in her left arm and staff in her right hand. A man in a jester's clothing is watering the tree from the early modern watering can on his shoulder, and the tree is very well-watered, you can see from the tall grass around it.
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Jan 9, 2017 08:27
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Is this article on Waffen SS being kinda crap is good enough to share on the internet?
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Jan 9, 2017 08:55
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JcDent posted:Is this article on Waffen SS being kinda crap is good enough to share on the internet? Its a little light, but I think its also worth pointing out that Waffen SS unit quality varied wildly from unit to unit. 30th Waffen SS quote:The division was moved by rail to southeastern France by mid-August 1944 to combat the French Forces of the Interior (FFI). The division's performance in combat was poor, and two battalions mutinied, murdered their German leaders, and defected to the FFI. Other troops of the division crossed the Swiss border and were interned. The remainder of the division saw little subsequent combat and eventually relocated in January 1945 to Grafenwöhr, a large military training camp north of Nuremberg. Oops!
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Jan 9, 2017 09:17
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Good enough for me! I have an idea of making like goon post compilation on imgur that would be about dispelling WWII myths and such. A "why every 'one thing that Germans should have done differently to win' article is wrong" Why German tanks weren't that good Why German technological superiority wasn't Why Germans weren't this mechanized horde of elite soldiers Why Russians weren't just human waving at Germans Why the winter wasn't the only thing that saved the USSR Why T-34 is actually cool and good (and has decent engines) Why Ronsons and Tommy Cookers are a lie Battle For Britain: involves more than British Poland: Not exactly a pushover France: how they helped Germany win Looting: how Germans kept their industry going Manufacturing: how that industry was poo poo Bombing of cities: event we can't agree on efficiency, but we know why they did it Waffen SS: it sucks Goering and friends: carving personal empire at the expense of the empire Concentration camps and the willful inefficiency of slave labor and so on.
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Jan 9, 2017 09:31
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JcDent posted:Good enough for me! Only for the Germans, or do we include the Japanese and others nations in there too? Also, how many articles/images would that end up as!?
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Jan 9, 2017 09:49
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OwlFancier posted:I think that the entirety of history up to this point would suggest that a surprising number of people are indeed a hair trigger pull away from war crimes so that may be the weak link in your belief. Yeah, Soldaten has a big segment on how readily german soldiers took to brutality. And even if it's only 1% of the enemy, it rapidly spirals because of reprisals and "if we don't do it to them/send a message they'll do it to us first" logic.
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Jan 9, 2017 09:55
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A hub post and the spikes, I guess. I would like to have it handy in one non-paywalled space so I could, dunno, show it to friends who make "five Shermans one Tiger comments" Most myths are about germans and you don't get many people pining for Imperial Japan or Italians.
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Jan 9, 2017 09:56
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spectralent posted:Yeah, Soldaten has a big segment on how readily german soldiers took to brutality. And even if it's only 1% of the enemy, it rapidly spirals because of reprisals and "if we don't do it to them/send a message they'll do it to us first" logic. What is the Soldaten you're referring to? A book? Also, agreed, at least with regards to Nazi Germany: While the Wehrmacht wasn't completely dominated by nazi ideology, having a civilian leadership that encouraged atrocities is really just a recipe for the breakdown of military discipline in any case.
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Jan 9, 2017 10:00
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