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WerrWaaa posted:Does the devotion to self/others/God fall on a horse shoe graph where the truest service to self is serving others as God wills? I would frame it slightly differently: the truest form of ministry to oneself is the kind that allows for the greatest ministry to one's neighbor and worship of God. As someone with a serious mental illness, I wish someone had taught me about the importance of self-care in Christian ministry. In my mentors' defense, nobody knew how bad it was. Thirteen Orphans fucked around with this message at 08:40 on Jan 9, 2017 |
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Jan 9, 2017 07:49
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Thirteen Orphans posted:I would frame it slightly differently: the truest form of ministry to oneself is the kind that allows for the greatest ministry to one's neighbor and worship of God. "Love your neighbor as yourself" requires that you love and take care of yourself as well.
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Jan 9, 2017 15:06
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Thirteen Orphans posted:I would frame it slightly differently: the truest form of ministry to oneself is the kind that allows for the greatest ministry to one's neighbor and worship of God. i recall telling you you needed to take care of yourself and not just say yes to everything everyone asked you to do, but then I'm just the little sister
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Jan 9, 2017 16:51
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On this topic, can someone enlighten me on what the relationship between faith and righteousness is in contemporary Christianity? (I know that there will obviously be a number of different interpretations, so your own views, or those of your respective churches / traditions, will suffice.) I'm not sure how brightly Augustine's star still shines in contemporary Christian theology (and I know he had a number of beliefs about predestination that those outside of the Calvinist tradition would possibly disavow) but here is something I previously wrote about him - could you tell me if any mainline Christians would be likely to hold similar views today? quote:Augustine, for example, denied that one, regardless of one's actions, could only be considered “just” by acting through divine grace. Writing to Julian, he says: “God forbid there be true virtues in anyone unless he is just, and God forbid he be truly just unless he lives by faith”. And as for the virtuous pagans? “I proclaim... with all my divinely given liberty of consciousness: 'True justice is not in those men'.”, “the highest good can come to men only through Christ, and Him crucified.”, and “all that is not from faith is sin.” Actually, if anyone could also clarify the relationship between grace and faith that would also be a big help! Blurred fucked around with this message at 17:01 on Jan 9, 2017 |
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Jan 9, 2017 16:58
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System Metternich posted:I recently stumbled on two absolutely wonderful CDs by an Austrian funeral music aficionado, and on the second one there are two recordings from Serbia, one from a funeral party and the other of a traditional dirge. I have no idea when they were recorded, probably in the 80s or early 90s? I was wondering what the people were saying during the party in the first recording (the only thing I think I got was "voda", which probably doesn't simply mean "water" in this regard OK, the first one is 100% Vlach. The music is Vlach, and the speech is Vlach. The Krajina that is mentioned is most likely Negotinska Krajina (Krajina means "frontier" and there's quite a few places that have that word in their name), the region of Serbia around the tripoint with Bulgaria and Romania. Vlach language is a Romance language related to Romanian, but has a massive amount of Serbian loanwords, and the liturgical language in their churches used to be Serbian. I can actually halfway understand some of what they're saying, but they are not talking in Serbian. (As an aside, Vlach language is kinda hosed in the long run since it's caught in a pissing contest between Serbia and Romania, with Romania wanting to 'give their children the right' to be educated in Romanian, which isn't really their language, and Serbia not wanting to fork over the cash for them to be educated in anything but Serbian, with European representatives running around like headless chickens asking everyone but them about what they want) What I (think I) could understand, with <> and <...> representing words or sentences I couldn't understand: quote:We are now going to play <> and we are to record <> and with rakija, and with wine <...> and with our cookies <...> 20 pieces. Note, though, that I do not speak Vlach in any way shape of form, so this could mostly just be me mislead by similarities. One thing I'm 100% sure in is that "Bog da prosti" is "Lord have mercy"(Literally "(may)God forgive") and you may have misheard "Bog da" as "voda" The second one are narikače - old women paid to loudly mourn the deceased at funerals. Since there's 3(?) of them on the record simultaneously, it's really hard to make out what they're saying. I mean, they're almost impossible to understand when listened to live and when you have a general idea of what they're supposed to be saying, but in a recording like this, yikes. It's in Serbian, though, there's just too much of it I can't understand due to the poor quality of the recording and the, uh, form of it. Some of the parts of it I could parse relatively easily: quote:"And you never woke up"
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Jan 9, 2017 18:12
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Blurred posted:I'm not sure how brightly Augustine's star still shines in contemporary Christian theology (and I know he had a number of beliefs about predestination that those outside of the Calvinist tradition would possibly disavow) but here is something I previously wrote about him - could you tell me if any mainline Christians would be likely to hold similar views today? I've heard it pretty often in evangelical circles that all things not done for the glory of God are sin, since, as they say, sin in its very essence is a separation from God. As far as grace versus faith goes, I got the Calvinist explanation, the Catholic explanation and the New Perspective on Paul explanation. Pick your poison.
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Jan 9, 2017 20:03
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 Hail Satan!
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Jan 9, 2017 20:16
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how dare you make me look at vore with my own two eyes
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Jan 9, 2017 20:22
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excuse me, don't doxx me e:  there, let's look at more wholesome Catholic art The Phlegmatist fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Jan 9, 2017 |
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Jan 9, 2017 20:27
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The Phlegmatist posted:As far as grace versus faith goes, I got the Calvinist explanation, the Catholic explanation and the New Perspective on Paul explanation. Pick your poison. I'll take all three if you've got the patience to write it up!
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Jan 9, 2017 20:46
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The Phlegmatist posted:excuse me, don't doxx me no wonder so many religions teach about ultimate human depravity
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Jan 9, 2017 21:18
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Though there are indeed ways to clothe a neighbor that are sinful, I wonder what Augustine would say if I asked what is the difference between a Samaritan's mercy and a pagan's mercy?
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Jan 9, 2017 22:13
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my dad posted:OK, the first one is 100% Vlach. The music is Vlach, and the speech is Vlach. The Krajina that is mentioned is most likely Negotinska Krajina (Krajina means "frontier" and there's quite a few places that have that word in their name), the region of Serbia around the tripoint with Bulgaria and Romania. Vlach language is a Romance language related to Romanian, but has a massive amount of Serbian loanwords, and the liturgical language in their churches used to be Serbian. I can actually halfway understand some of what they're saying, but they are not talking in Serbian. (As an aside, Vlach language is kinda hosed in the long run since it's caught in a pissing contest between Serbia and Romania, with Romania wanting to 'give their children the right' to be educated in Romanian, which isn't really their language, and Serbia not wanting to fork over the cash for them to be educated in anything but Serbian, with European representatives running around like headless chickens asking everyone but them about what they want) Huh, then the booklet texts had it the wrong way, they clearly said that the latter was Vlach and the former Serbian. In any case thanks a lot, that's super interesting! (as an aside: how often are narikače still employed at Serbian funerals?)
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Jan 10, 2017 00:46
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Blurred posted:I'll take all three if you've got the patience to write it up! I don't have any primary sources for NPP since I lent my book to someone else and this gets into a whole deep theological thing about works of the Law versus sola fide but So the Calvinist position is that grace is irresistible and humanity is totally depraved. Total inability might be a better term for it, but it essentially means that humankind is inclined only to sin apart from the grace afforded by God. As Calvin said, John Calvin posted:I feel pleased with the well-known saying which has been borrowed from the writings of Augustine, that man’s natural gifts were corrupted by sin, and his supernatural gifts withdrawn; meaning by supernatural gifts the light of faith and righteousness, which would have been sufficient for the attainment of heavenly life and everlasting felicity. Man, when he withdrew his allegiance to God, was deprived of the spiritual gifts by which he had been raised to the hope of eternal salvation. Hence it follows, that he is now an exile from the kingdom of God, so that all things which pertain to the blessed life of the soul are extinguished in him until he recover them by the grace of regeneration. Among these are faith, love to God, charity towards our neighbour, the study of righteousness and holiness Therefore grace (and only grace, sola gratia) engenders faith, because it is not through your own will that you can believe but only through the grace of God extended to you. This all comes from St. Augustine's refutation of Pelagius, extended by Calvin. For Calvinists, salvation is monergistic. The sovereign God chooses to save you, unconditionally, and you have no choice in the matter. If you're chosen, you'll have grace. If you have grace, you'll have faith -- faith that the Lord Jesus Christ died for your sins and was resurrected on the third day. So let's move on to Catholicism. As St. Thomas Aquinas says, Thomas Aquinas posted:According to the common manner of speech, grace is usually taken in three ways. First, for anyone's love, as we are accustomed to say that the soldier is in the good graces of the king, i.e. the king looks on him with favor. Secondly, it is taken for any gift freely bestowed, as we are accustomed to say: I do you this act of grace. Thirdly, it is taken for the recompense of a gift given "gratis," inasmuch as we are said to be "grateful" for benefits. Of these three the second depends on the first, since one bestows something on another "gratis" from the love wherewith he receives him into his good "graces." And from the second proceeds the third, since from benefits bestowed "gratis" arises "gratitude." The Catholic position is essentially the same of sola gratia. Following Augustine, only grace allows you to have faith. However, Catholics are also staunch believers in free will, so they do not believe in a monergistic salvation but rather a synergistic one. Grace allows you to have faith, but it's up to you to keep yourself in the faith. This is opposed to the Calvinist view of perseverance of saints, which says that all those called to faith will persevere to the end, solely on account of God and the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit and not accountable to any sort of human agency. NPP is kinda weird and also considered a vile heresy by most Protestants. Basically they've advanced the position that when Paul speaks of "grace" he is talking about a favor bestowed that must be repaid in kind by works. So this is a refutation of both the Catholic position and the Calvinist one. It is not a free gift. It is, actually, something that was given to you by Christ that you must do charitable works in response to. It's a radical redefinition of grace based on Koine texts that were contemporaneous with Paul.
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Jan 10, 2017 01:06
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WerrWaaa posted:Icon of shouldbesaint Godric please 
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Jan 10, 2017 01:36
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ITT crazy old hermits who could talk to snakes
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Jan 10, 2017 02:22
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WerrWaaa posted:ITT crazy old hermits who could talk to snakes Please get back when you don't need to talk to bears they just do g-d's will
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Jan 10, 2017 02:30
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The Phlegmatist posted:e:  
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Jan 10, 2017 03:39
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Teehee, I'm a vampire
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Jan 10, 2017 05:40
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WerrWaaa posted:ITT crazy old hermits who could talk to snakes It was fun researching him, thanks. Dude was legit and should seriously be canonized though. He reminds me of St. Francis of Assisi except nobody knows who he is. I'll write a strongly-worded letter to the pope because I guess that's in vogue these days.
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Jan 10, 2017 06:04
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The Phlegmatist posted:It was fun researching him, thanks. Dude was legit and should seriously be canonized though. He reminds me of St. Francis of Assisi except nobody knows who he is. I'll write a strongly-worded letter to the pope because I guess that's in vogue these days.
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Jan 10, 2017 06:05
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The Phlegmatist posted:excuse me, don't doxx me haha
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Jan 10, 2017 06:25
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HEY GAL posted:just tweet him, dude have you even seen the responses the pope gets on twitter a weird intersection between sedes, anti-theists, independent fundamentalist baptists and rad trads.
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Jan 10, 2017 06:44
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I'm reading Declare and it's kinda adorable how catty it is about communism (and ideology in general) as a substitute for faith I'm always a little nervous about recommending religion themed media to people because of this. Perhaps that's why the old saying goes that atheists make the best Christian movies. (I wanted a reference to Declare's climax in my av text but I didn't think anyone would get it)
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Jan 10, 2017 07:28
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The Phlegmatist posted:have you even seen the responses the pope gets on twitter no but i'm intrigued
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Jan 10, 2017 07:41
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Well, he really brings some some special children of God out of the woodwork, that's for sure.
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Jan 10, 2017 12:15
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StashAugustine posted:I'm always a little nervous about recommending religion themed media to people because of this. Perhaps that's why the old saying goes that atheists make the best Christian movies. This is why Gene Wolfe is my favorite. His books are really unmistakeably Catholic but he does most of the thematic heavy living with how his protagonists stand as examples, and not always uniformly positive or negative examples at that.
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Jan 10, 2017 13:57
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syscall girl posted:no but i'm intrigued Read through people replying to him and see how long it takes you before you spot somebody tweeting "There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ. Nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalts himself, in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God" at the pope. It's like a Calvinist drinking game where everyone loses.
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Jan 10, 2017 16:11
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The Phlegmatist posted:Read through people replying to him and see how long it takes you before you spot somebody tweeting "There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ. Nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalts himself, in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God" at the pope. It's like a Calvinist drinking game where everyone loses. Isn't that a fairly common response? Not quite sane but I've heard it before.
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Jan 10, 2017 16:23
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I have zero ideas about the Calvinist drinking game though. Last summer I spent some time with the homeless and one of them got extremely irate when I told him about a family friend/pastor guy who used Calvin and Hobbes to illustrate philosophical concepts. I didn't even say what his opinion was on whether the little boy or the stuffed tiger was better but he got all CALVINISTS!* He wasn't religious either, he was in to Lyndon Larouche. *And now I've met a homeless dude who is named Calvin and he is in some dire straights from this weather
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Jan 10, 2017 16:32
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syscall girl posted:Last summer I spent some time with the homeless and one of them got extremely irate when I told him about a family friend/pastor guy who used Calvin and Hobbes to illustrate philosophical concepts. People get weird about Calvinism. I've seen Calvinists accused of worshiping Satan a bunch of times. Calvinism vs. Arminianism is the best soteriological battle where both sides hate each other but nobody should even really care about, because the praxis is the same and nobody's gonna be giving you theological exams to attain entry into heaven.
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Jan 10, 2017 18:09
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Anybody seen Silence yet? It's really, really good. Go see it.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:28
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Only opens here in March 
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Jan 10, 2017 19:48
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Scorsese was at my Alma mater this weekend talking about it and I didn't know in time to go.
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Jan 10, 2017 20:01
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I was going to post this in the Weird Headlines thread but it's more fun here. Grandma accidentally prays to Elrond from Lord of the Rings.StashAugustine posted:I'm always a little nervous about recommending religion themed media to people because of this. Perhaps that's why the old saying goes that atheists make the best Christian movies. Funny, because he's saying the atheist is the worse writer  ... I once got into an internet argument about Charles Williams' War in Heaven. The climax basically involves the hero submitting to the will of God and letting Him deal with the bad guys. I hated it at the time. Now I respect it for Williams' insistence making his point despite the lack of convention, but you have to be pretty on board with ideas like that to actually enjoy it.
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Jan 11, 2017 04:37
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Praying the wrong way always makes me think of The Screwtape Letters poor british sod praying to a spot on the ceiling
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Jan 11, 2017 04:44
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Safety Biscuits posted:Funny, because he's saying the atheist is the worse writer Oh yeah I really like Declare as a book (and even if the religious themes turn you off there's still British secret agents racing to prevent a strategic genie gap) but when religion is such a huge part of your worldview even if you're not preaching it can come across as odd.
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Jan 11, 2017 04:49
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StashAugustine posted:Oh yeah I really like Declare as a book (and even if the religious themes turn you off there's still British secret agents racing to prevent a strategic genie gap) but when religion is such a huge part of your worldview even if you're not preaching it can come across as odd. To me the spoiler sounds like a literal Deus Ex Machina since when has that actually happened/ when is it ever a good story telling choice? As a secondary question I had to ask something quickly, as it's something I was wondering about. I read a book on satan recently, I think it was called "The devil: A biography", and I was wondering what peoples thoughts are on the idea of the devil? Do you believe in it? Is there really a moral centre of evil?
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Jan 11, 2017 08:16
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Josef bugman posted:I was wondering what peoples thoughts are on the idea of the devil? Do you believe in it? Is there really a moral centre of evil? A moral center of evil sounds like an exaggaration or, if it weren't the exact opposite, flattery. Yeah, I do believe that the Devil exists and works in various ways. I don't think the Bible is ambiguous in that. I think it's more of a God's (already resolved) problem than our's though, so on purpose I don't think of it much.
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Jan 11, 2017 08:36
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Demons and spirits exist, sure, but a center of evil? I doubt it. Evil is in the choices of each of us, or good is.
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