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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Are you referring to the outdoors stuff on Insurrection? They shot in Alaska. The Nemesis wedding scene was Alaska. The lake and Ba'ku village in Insurrection were filmed in California.
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Jan 9, 2017 08:51
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Drink-Mix Man posted:If I had to take a guess, I'd bet that with the overabundance of Star Trek in the 90's with no end in sight, there wasn't as much healthy fear of failure going around during the TNG movies. I mean, if Star Trek II tanked, that probably would have ended Star Trek. Around the time of Insurrection, I'd wager everyone probably felt overly secure that they'd have another at-bat if they delivered a turd. It seems like the biggest issue was the number of shared staff and assets between the TV shows and movies. It's not just that they were trying to reuse props and models that were made for a TV show (and stealing DS9's uniforms), but also that the team was exhausted from years of churning out 20+ hours a year of syndicated television and didn't have the right mindset for film. Many of them were rank amateurs to the film business and were stuck in their old formulas and overly wedded to the show's mythos. The first six movies feel like TOS, but they're not really a continuation as such. There was enough distance between the show and the movies that the creators felt they had to recreate Star Trek rather than just continue it. Sure there's Klingons and energy beings and the blatant plot recycling in TMP, but Wrath of Khan is really the only movie that actually calls back to a specific TOS episode, and you don't actually have to have seen Space Seed to get it. Plus he was one of the best actors and most iconic characters in the whole series and deserved to come back. On the other hand, was anyone really clamoring for the return of the Duras sisters? Was finishing their character arc really so loving important that they needed to be squeezed into a movie that already had loving Malcolm McDowell as its villain? Also, remember that emotion chip Data got from Lore in Descent Part 2? No? Well, we're doing that too. It all really reeks of a creative team that had no idea if they were making the first movie in a new franchise, the seventh movie in the TOS franchise, or a second finale for TNG. The Borg in First Contact were at least iconic villains, but Picard's whole character arc is based on a six-year-old episode and it really hammers home the point that nothing much has actually changed for these characters in the decade we've known them except that some of them are a bit paunchier and they have a new ship that the script barely acknowledges. Sure there's some bullshit about aging in Insurrection and Nemesis has a wedding in it, but, for the most part, the TNG movies are shamefully indifferent to the passage of time and keep resetting the characters (except maybe Smug Data and Action Picard) like they're still writing syndicated TV. Nemesis came out fifteen years after TNG started. Why is everyone still in basically the same places doing basically the same jobs? I get that Kirk told Picard to never stop being a captain (a line I always hated), but why has Riker spent the last ten years turning down promotions (was he just waiting to wear down Troi enough?). It's nice to see that at least a couple crew members (besides Worf) are moving on and parting ways, but it's still pretty baffling that they waited until the fourth movie to really start showing it. Between the TV people playing at movie producers, the studio flacks trying desperately to figure out this whole "Star Trek" thing, and diva actors with no one to keep them in check, everyone comes off pretty badly, but Rick "movies are just like tv, right?" Berman really seems like he deserves the most blame, followed by various meddling executives. Moore, Braga, and some of the other show people don't exactly come out of it smelling like roses, but they at least get the excuse of being overworked and in over their heads, while Stewart, Frakes, and Spiner were just overreaching the way "stars" often do and probably would have been fine if there were people smart enough to say no to them and make sure they stayed away from the scripts. Piller is the one I really can't figure out because he, like Berman, has some real "man who saved Star Trek" credibility, but depending on who you ask, he was either a burnt out hack by the time he made Insurrection (also Voyager), or was still one of the team''s best assets but couldn't get out from under a studio and various "creatives" that couldn't decide what they wanted and was mired in a work environment so dysfunctional that failure was all but assured.
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Jan 9, 2017 11:31
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I haven't finished the TNG movie portion of 50 Year Mission, but the sense I got was that Piller really was just burnt out from all the years of juggling his roles and duties in the franchise. He's clearly a talented guy, but the wind was out of his sails sometime after Generations.
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Jan 9, 2017 11:37
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twistedmentat posted:Cool, maybe next time Amazon has a sale I can get them for cheap, though i'd rather have them on BluRay because i am trying to avoid buying more DVDs. I managed to cut nearly 600 to just over 100. Wouldn't we all. I wouldn't hold your breath on Blu-rays. 
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Jan 9, 2017 14:34
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Insurrection also had this.
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Jan 9, 2017 14:35
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Insurrection was permeated in the style of camp writing that Voyager descended into. If you really watch Generations and Insurrection back to back, you can notice a stark difference in the characters in the way humor is handled especially. I'm not saying humor isn't wanted in Star Trek, of course it is and it's always been a part of things. What I am saying is that stuff in Insurrection like Worf and Picard singing, Data feeling Riker's freshly shaved face, the boob comment, and Data doing "there's something on your shirt" gag with Riker at the end just feel like more of a parody than actual dialog and actions the characters would say and do. It just feels very distinctly different to the way humor was handled with TNG in the past. Even the "scanning for lifeforms" scene in Generations comes across much more like something that would have been in the original run of TNG than anything that came later. It's all saccharine and empty. The actors are all just a little TOO comfortable in their roles. Instead of using that as an opportunity for growth for their characters, it's instead used sell a script that was trying to be just a little too silly and sanitized.
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Jan 9, 2017 14:59
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Jan 9, 2017 15:59
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bull3964 posted:It's all saccharine and empty. The actors are all just a little TOO comfortable in their roles. Instead of using that as an opportunity for growth for their characters, it's instead used sell a script that was trying to be just a little too silly and sanitized. I've been working my way through The Fifty-Year Mission, and one of the things I've noticed is how many people seemed to want to recapture the fun of TOS in Star Trek's later years. It seems like the real problem with that is that a lot of what modern writers see as "fun" in TOS really wasn't intentional. TOS writers were writing the best sci-fi they could for the time, but they were still locked into 60s TV conventions. You just can't replicate that feel with modern TV or film and have it come off as anything other than silly and forced.
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Jan 9, 2017 16:39
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Oh man, I forgot on my list data saying that he could be used as a floatation device in the event of a water landing. These are all things I giggled at on first watch, but they are real groaners and not quite the same drier sense of humor that was done before. For example, I'm still amused by Data saying "It is green" in Relics because it's a good piece of in character comedy and it's a nice callback to TOS. Data commenting to Worf about breasts getting firmer just makes me feel like he suffered permanent system damage in his cognitive functions.
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Jan 9, 2017 16:39
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Paradoxish posted:I've been working my way through The Fifty-Year Mission, and one of the things I've noticed is how many people seemed to want to recapture the fun of TOS in Star Trek's later years. It seems like the real problem with that is that a lot of what modern writers see as "fun" in TOS really wasn't intentional. TOS writers were writing the best sci-fi they could for the time, but they were still locked into 60s TV conventions. You just can't replicate that feel with modern TV or film and have it come off as anything other than silly and forced. Yeah, I think that's exactly it. TOS is campy because that's the trappings of 60s TV. Everyone gets together at the end and has a good laugh and the adventure continues next week. Intentionally injecting that camp into the writing of something that came 30+ years later just rings false, that's why it feels like a parody.
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Jan 9, 2017 16:43
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On the other hand, I think DS9 did humor really well. Which was interesting because it was the "darker" and more "serious" show.
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Jan 9, 2017 17:29
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Astroman posted:On the other hand, I think DS9 did humor really well. Which was interesting because it was the "darker" and more "serious" show. I think that's it though. Humour works well as a contrast with more seirous fare. When you try to joke within a context of mild goofiness it just always seems awkward and lame
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Jan 9, 2017 17:41
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WeAreTheRomans posted:Humor works well as a contrast with more serious fare. Yes, and the reverse holds true as well. Scrubs managed to pull off incredibly affecting emotional moments because the main humor of the show contrasted the drama.
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Jan 9, 2017 17:53
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WeAreTheRomans posted:I think that's it though. Humour works well as a contrast with more seirous fare. When you try to joke within a context of mild goofiness it just always seems awkward and lame Humor in DS9 still works better even when the whole episode is goofy. Worf yelling "Find him and kill him!" when that Vulcan misses home plate still makes me giggle. Speaking of Worf, why would he think that Jadzia didn't qualify for Sto-vo-kor because she didn't die in glorious battle? A more powerful adversary appeared, she tried to pull a phaser, but he got the drop on her and she got fried. It's not like he killed her while she was cowering in the corner. Seems to me that taking on a god in a battle is far more glorious than the way most Klingons in the series have died.
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Jan 9, 2017 19:04
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Certainly it was a more honourable death than being killed in a soccer match!
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Jan 9, 2017 19:21
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Or the notion that the leader of the House of Kozak getting overpowered by a Ferengi bartender in a knife fight is an honorable death.
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Jan 9, 2017 19:28
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Ever notice how the Klingons are meant to be this fearsome warrior race renowned for their skill in combat, then when they all attack DS9 at once (in "The Way of the Warrior") virtually all they do is clasp their hands together and do double-fist hammer punches?
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Jan 9, 2017 20:18
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Wheat Loaf posted:Ever notice how the Klingons are meant to be this fearsome warrior race renowned for their skill in combat, then when they all attack DS9 at once (in "The Way of the Warrior") virtually all they do is clasp their hands together and do double-fist hammer punches? I think you're the first person to ever note that ST has bad fight choreography. Your prize is to experience Bij
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Jan 9, 2017 20:55
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Wheat Loaf posted:Ever notice how the Klingons are meant to be this fearsome warrior race renowned for their skill in combat, then when they all attack DS9 at once (in "The Way of the Warrior") virtually all they do is clasp their hands together and do double-fist hammer punches? Are you saying that Kirk-fu isn't the ultimate evolution of martial arts?
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Jan 9, 2017 21:00
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Pakled posted:Are you saying that Kirk-fu isn't the ultimate evolution of martial arts? Maybe in the 23rd century it was, but I think we all know what the ultimate evolution is NOW.
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Jan 9, 2017 21:32
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CubanMissile posted:Humor in DS9 still works better even when the whole episode is goofy. Worf yelling "Find him and kill him!" when that Vulcan misses home plate still makes me giggle. Worf had some really hilarious deadpanned lines. His poem cracks me up every time. "This is the story of a little ship... that took a little trip."
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Jan 9, 2017 22:33
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"Good tea." *looks around for a second* "Nice house."
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Jan 9, 2017 22:35
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The difference is really how campy it is, more specifically how much we are supposed to enjoy the joke based on how bad it is. All of the gags in insurrection are just that, gags. Data isn't human so he says and does inappropriate things. The beat is held and we are supposed to laugh with the characters. Insert studio audience track. Stuff like "find him and kill him" aren't campy even if it's an inherently silly episode. It's a good, honest bit of character dialog. Worf is joking around with his friends in a competitive way that's in character. What he isn't doing is telling a joke for the benefit of the audience. That's really what we get too much of in the TNG movies and Voyager. They did pull back quite a bit in Enterprise though.
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Jan 9, 2017 22:50
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bull3964 posted:They did pull back quite a bit in Enterprise though. That part was easy, they just made most of the cast unlikeable assholes for the first season.
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Jan 9, 2017 23:40
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bull3964 posted:What he isn't doing is telling a joke for the benefit of the audience. That's really what we get too much of in the TNG movies and Voyager. They did pull back quite a bit in Enterprise though. They made up for it by having the characters awkwardly say "butt," "rear end," "poop," or "bum" every episode.
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Jan 10, 2017 00:09
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The Voyager episode "False Profits" is on. I realized that is basically the TNG episode "Devil's Due".
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Jan 10, 2017 00:28
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bull3964 posted:They did pull back quite a bit in Enterprise though. They realized that Vulcan sideboob was the way to grab the audience
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Jan 10, 2017 00:54
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FuturePastNow posted:They realized that Vulcan sideboob was the way to grab the audience The prequel to Vulcan Love Slave, clearly.
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Jan 10, 2017 02:02
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FuturePastNow posted:They realized that Vulcan sideboob was the way to grab the audience That's just Riker adding needless T&A to his self-help holodeck program. He's a lot like awful modders of today.
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Jan 10, 2017 02:43
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Is there any streaming service out there that has episodes of the original series with the original special effects? I'm not normally a purist, but the cutting back and forth between an alien that's just a dog in a wig and a hi-def CGI Enterprise just gives me whiplash.
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Jan 10, 2017 02:57
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Drink-Mix Man posted:They made up for it by having the characters awkwardly say "butt," "rear end," "poop," or "bum" every episode.
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Jan 10, 2017 03:04
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Jellymouth posted:Is there any streaming service out there that has episodes of the original series with the original special effects? Amazon has both remastered and original versions I think.
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Jan 10, 2017 03:21
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I would be less displeased with the remaster CGI if it weren't so godawful. Seriously, it looks like a high school student made and rendered it.
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Jan 10, 2017 03:41
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Kazinsal posted:I would be less displeased with the remaster CGI if it weren't so godawful. It almost fits in with the godawful original effects, yet doesn't, at all. I bet nerds in 2050 will feel nostalgic for it, though.
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Jan 10, 2017 03:52
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What the hell is with the Starfleet admissions process in Coming of Age? Why did Wesley have to take the entrance exam and that random planet, and why is it a competition? If someone meets the standards why would Starfleet turn them away? And if it is a competition then why wouldn't you go to a planet with the fewest people testing for admission?
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Jan 10, 2017 05:37
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That whole episode made no sense. But apparently the captain of a ship can make any random 16 year old an acting ensign so it was doubly weird.
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Jan 10, 2017 05:45
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Namaer posted:What the hell is with the Starfleet admissions process in Coming of Age? Why did Wesley have to take the entrance exam and that random planet, and why is it a competition? If someone meets the standards why would Starfleet turn them away? And if it is a competition then why wouldn't you go to a planet with the fewest people testing for admission? Wasn't that for advance entry? You had to be a certain age to enter unless you were a douchey super genius.
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Jan 10, 2017 05:51
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Namaer posted:What the hell is with the Starfleet admissions process in Coming of Age? Why did Wesley have to take the entrance exam and that random planet, and why is it a competition? If someone meets the standards why would Starfleet turn them away? And if it is a competition then why wouldn't you go to a planet with the fewest people testing for admission? Not to mention that it's weird that an intergalactic military force representing hundreds of species and worlds and billions of people would only have one academy that officers can come from.
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Jan 10, 2017 05:56
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Namaer posted:What the hell is with the Starfleet admissions process in Coming of Age? Why did Wesley have to take the entrance exam and that random planet, and why is it a competition? If someone meets the standards why would Starfleet turn them away? And if it is a competition then why wouldn't you go to a planet with the fewest people testing for admission? I just read the synopsis for this episode on Memory Alpha, and the entire episode makes even less sense.
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Jan 10, 2017 06:02
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Kazinsal posted:I would be less displeased with the remaster CGI if it weren't so godawful. Tell you what, I'll trade you straight up. You can keep the old beat-up worn-out effects reels for TOS and I'll take the cheap but serviceable remaster for B5.
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Jan 10, 2017 06:09
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