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Nielsen posted:Ok fair enough, and what now? Because we are comparing Rogue 1 to previous Star Wars... "Saw is Vader" etc. so.
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Jan 8, 2017 19:37
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Nielsen posted:It would be more convincing if this madness of faith was present in the dialogue or well acted. You are merely expressing displeasure. The memetic, esoteric terms that keep getting bandied around - 'chemistry,' 'relatable,' 'empathetic' - these are all misdirections from the fundamental conceit of the film - which is that the characters are weird space aliens whose experience is fundamentally unlike your own, but the you should be compassionate and merciful anyway because they are clearly traumatized by the context of their setting, and are maybe not thinking in terms of folks whose biggest worry is whether they stream this suffering or actually go to see its abjection on the big screen, where everyone can appreciate just how intimate and non-judgmental Edwards' cinematography is even when he's depicting this broken, old robot man (either one) who is clinging to faith to rationalize the countless traumas he's suffered for only the 'cosmic' condition of his birth. These are epic, demi-god figures. Again, until you can understand context, you will never appreciate performance. Rogue One begs comparison to A New Hope - but always as a point of contrast. Thematically, it's much more akin to Son of Saul or David Ayers' excellent Fury.
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Jan 8, 2017 19:37
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Nielsen posted:You categorically misrepresent it as "it needs more quips" read my post again. You present a false image of all that poo poo, sure those people also exist, they want the movie to be like an avengers movie or w/e "it needs more fun!" that's maybe valid but imo also rubbish. No, look, I am accusing you of cowardice. Who is "they"? How do we know the RLM review etc. represent "their" opinions? Why are you deferring to this imagined audience instead of owning your critique? This is a concern troll. Alternative proposal: general audiences are enjoying Rogue One just fine, there is no particular controversy or mixed reception to be explained away, and none of this is relevant to forming our own opinions on the film. A vocal minority of nerds on the internet dislike Rogue One mostly for typically nerdy reasons, and as such some of the criticisms have more to do with the viewer's own prejudices than they do with the film. These are what keep getting dismissed as "memes", because that's what they are - they aren't specific, substantiated claims about the film, but buzzwords and catchphrases deployed without meaning. For example, what is it about that clip of Felicity Jones that makes for "bad acting"?
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Jan 8, 2017 19:52
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Lt. Danger posted:Who is "they"? How do we know the RLM review etc. represent "their" opinions? Because their review is not blatant parody like the videos which follow shortly after? They mostly hate the 'SW fans' which obsess about the vehicles and not much else, but ironically in the same vein complain about the characters later. When they state "it's the facsimile of drama" I don't disagree with them on that when I watch Jyn cry or she gives the speech. If you want to say their video is slyly a double bluff go ahead. Why should you not trust what they say though? I do disagree with them that it should've been a quippy heist film, but I think that's a complaint which comes from the film's tonal inconsistency at Jedha for instance: You have quippy robot action, a scene from BHD or the Iraq war, a child being rescued and some more jokes in between and brutal execution of stormtroopers. I would've preferred more drab and total drab only. I feel the film wants to have its cake and eat it with the quips but also having the real life war parallels. Lt. Danger posted:No, look, I am accusing you of cowardice Why are you deferring to this imagined audience instead of owning your critique? I understand it looks like that, it's a ball of opinions gathered from the thread and RLM, I try to think about which ones I agree with and which ones I don't. Unlike yourself I don't take the position that I am above these opinions or outright dismiss everything. It's different because some opinions are not my own, but I don't want to bear the brunt of the assault lol. If that's cowardly so be it, I'm stating some opinions that I disagree with but can understand and want to see what people's reaction to that is, if they have a good rebuke or if they can acknowledge these. Maybe you write them off as superficial or whatever but if people think there's something wrong with the characters even though they can't articulate why then that's interesting and worth figuring out where that's coming from. You already seem to know though: it's memes. If you have any other idea which allows some more thought on this I'd love to hear it otherwise just leave it. Lt. Danger posted:Alternative proposal: general audiences are enjoying Rogue One just fine, there is no particular controversy or mixed reception to be explained away, and none of this is relevant to forming our own opinions on the film. A vocal minority of nerds on the internet dislike Rogue One mostly for typically nerdy reasons, and as such some of the criticisms have more to do with the viewer's own prejudices than they do with the film. Could very well be. When you say a vocal minority of nerds dislike it for nerdy reasons: I haven't heard anyone talk about stuff like "the spaceship is at the wrong place at the wrong time" or other some such things. It's mostly revolving around characters, or in the case of RLM: Star Wars as uncritically absorbed consumer product (RLM parody) etc. Again "a vocal minority dislikes the film" you think dislike is the point? I think almost everyone in here likes the film and indeed, each have their own prejudices on what they like and don't. What are yours? Did you go see the film with friends? Were all these friends saying whatever you were saying? What did you discuss with them after seeing it Danger? Were they talking about memes? Lt. Danger posted:For example, what is it about that clip of Felicity Jones that makes for "bad acting"? I'm not an actor, so you know I can't give you a satisfying technical answer at all lol so this is pure diversion to dig my own grave but I'll indulge you: it didn't resonate with me at all, it didn't seem believable, how or why? ask evolution of the brain I dunno, some people are better at fooling/living the character (acting) me than others. K. Waste posted:you should be compassionate and merciful anyway because they are clearly traumatized by the context of their setting, and are maybe not thinking in terms of folks whose biggest worry is whether they stream this suffering or actually go to see its abjection on the big screen, where everyone can appreciate just how intimate and non-judgmental Edwards' cinematography is even when he's depicting this broken, old robot man (either one) "we're not supposed to care, it's about the death star plans!" I suppose you don't agree with that view then, that's something: so it is about people. Fine, but then we get to the point of whether that's appropriate. You have here a film which wants to deal with actual tragedy and which alludes to real tragedies: the imperialism in the middle east, warcrimes etc: but it also wants to be funny and smart and yet deliver genuine suffering which rings rather hollow if you have a kungfu monk and a robot quipping while stormtroopers and extras are brutally executed and children are saved all in rapid succession. That said I felt the worst about the droid's death in particular because of the re-programming, he was dragged into this poo poo against his will, like a warhorse or a dog. (and yes droids are people haha) At least the others chose to go. I think Fury like R1 also has this issue, it makes the battles exciting, maybe too much (but this can be an inherent flaw to warmovies, where some people see it like this or that) but it doesn't present it with a certain irony like Apocalypse Now does.. and even then certain people cheer when they shoot up the village. I'm not going to say you have to compromise your vision to hammer the message home, but it seems obvious that it's made because you want "exciting action" etc. Contrast this with SPR where the opening 20 min. of the film is pure grotesque horror and you have no choice but to think "this is a terrible idea" ironically the film then moves on to non-horror and zero sympathy for german soldiers so you're watching pure propaganda but that's for another time. I haven't seen Son of Saul yet but I'm expecting that to be a different beast alltogether considering it's not a Hollywood movie so it's probably more sincere. Nielsen fucked around with this message at 13:33 on Jan 9, 2017 |
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Jan 8, 2017 21:09
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Nielsen posted:Fine, but then we get to the point of whether that's appropriate. You have here a film which wants to deal with actual tragedy and which alludes to real tragedies: the imperialism in the middle east, warcrimes etc: but it also wants to be funny and smart and yet deliver genuine suffering which rings rather hollow if you have a kungfu monk and a robot quipping while stormtroopers and extras are brutally executed and children are saved all in rapid succession. temple fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Jan 9, 2017 |
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Jan 9, 2017 00:29
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We really don't need the general SW thread to infect this one, guys.
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Jan 9, 2017 02:54
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The problem is, evidently, when you exclude this sort of discussion from one thread or forum, discussion evidently dies. Which is too bad, because I'm down for the entire shitposting subforum.
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Jan 9, 2017 03:32
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This thread used to die down when there weren't any spoilers available for Rogue One or Episode 8. I miss it
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Jan 9, 2017 04:35
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Sorry guys, indeed wrong thread, if anyone wants to respond put it in the other one.
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Jan 9, 2017 09:39
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Giant walls of context-free spoiler tags in the "spoil-o-rama" thread. And nothing in them is even a spoiler!
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Jan 9, 2017 11:43
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Star Wars Spoil-o-rama thread with added CIA redacting. If you need to redact it, don't write it
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Jan 9, 2017 12:52
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Spoiler: Episode VIII is going to be cool and good. Probably. Maybe. I hope. 
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Jan 9, 2017 12:58
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Rocksicles posted:Star Wars Spoil-o-rama thread with added CIA redacting. If you need to redact it, don't write it Nah I didn't look and I confused threads. It's not a conspiracy : P Gonz posted:Spoiler: Episode VIII is going to be cool and good. What is good? good for a Star Wars movie? Putting the new main series aside for a moment, I'm super skeptical about the coming Han Solo movie, and then the rumored Boba Fett movie after that... I'm sure it every fans' dream to see it but whatever, it feels a bit exploitative. I'm short on ideas of what they should otherwise be doing, but it'd be interesting to move away from most these types of characters and tell other stories completely. Nielsen fucked around with this message at 13:40 on Jan 9, 2017 |
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Jan 9, 2017 13:33
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Eventually, the well will run dry, and we'll get a Figrin D'an & The Modal Nodes origin story movie.
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Jan 9, 2017 14:02
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Gonz posted:Eventually, the well will run dry, and we'll get a Figrin D'an & The Modal Nodes origin story movie. I would jizz.
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Jan 9, 2017 15:50
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JK Simmons as the jizz teacher
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Jan 9, 2017 15:55
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Yer wailin that jizz too hard, Figgy! You gotta let the jizz flow out smooth and free!
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Jan 9, 2017 16:13
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Nielsen posted:Putting the new main series aside for a moment, I'm super skeptical about the coming Han Solo movie, and then the rumored Boba Fett movie after that... I'm sure it every fans' dream to see it but whatever, it feels a bit exploitative. Mara Jade, starring Scarlett Johannson
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Jan 9, 2017 16:40
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The top contender for episode VIII subtitle is not great.
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Jan 9, 2017 17:17
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What's the top contender?
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Jan 9, 2017 17:46
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Some actual (possible) spoilers for the spoiler thread:MakingStarWars posted:If you recall, last week we shared some information about these little avian creatures on Ahch-To in Star Wars: Episode VIII. These birds were said to be “protectors of Ahch-To.” When the puppets were being described to me last summer, certain things like their sharp teeth stood out to me that I never saw in the a Star Wars design. But they also made me not consider it was a bird-like creature we had seen before. Many of you asked me if the “Puffins” were “Convorees”. I thought about it and dug a little. More speculation at the link; could be a nice bit of continuity if they follow through. fake edit: Also some Rian comments out of a badly-formatted USA Today article: USA Today posted:Remember that Star Wars: The Force Awakens cliffhanger with new heroine Rey (Daisy Ridley) bringing Jedi master Luke Skywalker (Mark Hamill) his old lightsaber on a remote intergalactic island? Writer/director Rian Johnson is picking up right where they left off in the beginning of the Star Wars saga’s still-untitled next chapter. “I don’t want to skip ahead two years,” Johnson says. “I want to see the very next moment of what happens.” How Rey and Luke relate to each other is the key relationship in Episode VIII, and Johnson says “a large part of the movie” will be spent addressing why Luke’s there and what he’ll do next. Like Luke, Rey has been pulled into a bigger world by connecting with the Force, “but part of what’s she’s dealing with is the realization that she has this power and this gift,” Johnson adds. “She’s taking her first step to coming to terms with this thing inside her that she never knew was there and is just starting to reveal its potential.” Another cliffhanger: How General Leia might figure in the film in light of Carrie Fisher’s death last month.
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Jan 9, 2017 17:50
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teagone posted:
+1 Probably like 20 minutes of re-shoots would make you care more about the characters, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if there is a few deleted scenes taken out for "pacing" purposes. Like a Erso family moment, why Jynn is in jail, Cassian Flashback, More Saw stuff etc. Jack2142 fucked around with this message at 22:50 on Jan 9, 2017 |
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Jan 9, 2017 22:41
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Star Wars VIII thread: The second-highest grossing movie of 2016 and the second-highest grossing Star Wars movie is bad and you shouldn't like it. Star Wars VIII thread: The second-highest grossing movie of 2016 and the second-highest grossing Star Wars movie doesn't have good characters.
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Jan 9, 2017 23:39
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I'm excited for Star Wars Episode VIII: Guardians of Ga'Hoole.
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Jan 9, 2017 23:49
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Huzanko posted:Star Wars VIII thread: The second-highest grossing movie of 2016 and the second-highest grossing Star Wars movie doesn't have good characters. It's true. It has a lot of great fan service though. Despite the mediocre ensemble, Rogue One is a solid Star Wars-y actioner.
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Jan 10, 2017 00:15
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Are you seriously using the box office to defend a movie? It's not bad but desperately needed more Hannibal. I'm not nearly invested enough into the Star Wars thing to get into giant arguments, but despite finding the movie quite enjoyable overall, I have to say that most critique is absolutely spot on. Without the SW association, it would've been a decent sci-fi action flick but nobody would give a poo poo about it. The characters felt as disposable as they turned out to be and the plot was basically a lame fetch subquest. It was hard to give a poo poo about any of this and when everyone started dying it was mostly a relief.
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Jan 10, 2017 00:40
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Jack2142 posted:why Jynn is in jail, The scene where they list off her various crimes? That's in the movie? E: mobby_6kl posted:the plot was basically a lame fetch subquest. Do you even know what that means? I ask, because that's such an insane amount of hyperbole that I have to wonder. TheMaestroso fucked around with this message at 01:02 on Jan 10, 2017 |
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Jan 10, 2017 00:40
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TheMaestroso posted:The scene where they list off her various crimes? Listing her crimes is less cool than showing them. Imo what coulda been cool is after the rogue one title we cut to a montage of jyn growing up under saw doing crime and learning to be a terrorist (like 12 year old jyn building an ied that blows up a troop carrier) intercut with mads working on the death star and looking stoic thinking about jyn. End it with saw abandoning her during an ambush/raid gone wrong and her ending in jail with the same scenes of her getting busted out. Change the cassian scene to the guy knowing jyns where abouts and stick in between the two prison scenes. I think it would have been better than the awkward multiple quick scenes. Just imo tho i still liked the movie alot.
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Jan 10, 2017 02:39
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TheMaestroso posted:The scene where they list off her various crimes? That's in the movie? Show don't tell first rule of movies. Again the movie wasn't terrible neither was it good it was just okay to me besides Box Office =/= Quality.
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Jan 10, 2017 03:14
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TheMaestroso posted:The scene where they list off her various crimes? That's in the movie? I mentioned just listing off Jyn's criminal offenses removes any potential nuance that's crucial to understanding and connecting with the character. Jyn is an antihero, but the film doesn't take advantage of that character archetype. Show me a sequence where she's partaking in something that she knows is morally wrong, but is doing it with the belief that everything she has done was for a righteous cause. Or in contrast, give me a scene where she's conflicted about the crime she's committing, but goes through with it knowing and believing it's the only way things can be made right, no matter the cost. Love it or hate it, the "this is a Rebellion, isn't it? I rebel." line from the trailer was bold-as-gently caress and wish I saw THAT Jyn in the movie. teagone fucked around with this message at 03:39 on Jan 10, 2017 |
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Jan 10, 2017 03:37
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Not arguing that seeing her do a thing would've been bad (more stuff is good after all, though I already like the movie a lot), but I don't think it would be necessary. The movie establishes enough about that part of her to work just fine.
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Jan 10, 2017 03:37
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teagone posted:I mentioned just listing off Jyn's criminal offenses removes any potential nuance that's crucial to understanding and connecting with the character. Jyn is an antihero, but the film doesn't take advantage of that character archetype. Show me a sequence where she's partaking in something that she knows is morally wrong, but is doing it with the belief that everything she has done was for a righteous cause. Or in contrast, give me a scene where she's conflicted about the crime she's committing, but goes through with it knowing and believing it's the only way things can be made right, no matter the cost. Love it or hate, the "this is a Rebellion, isn't it? I rebel." dialogue line was bold-as-gently caress and wish I saw THAT Jyn in the movie. I thought the movie characterizes her at the beginning of the story as someone who doesn't care about righteous causes or "making things right," but that she rediscovers that those are important to her in the meeting on Jeddha and again later on Eadu. E: Sorry about the second post, I don't comment this much very often and I always forget to addendum this poo poo.
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Jan 10, 2017 03:39
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Jyn isn't an anti-hero. Maybe Saw was. You are creating a strawman just to knock it down. Jyn is a reluctant hero.
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Jan 10, 2017 03:44
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TheMaestroso posted:I thought the movie characterizes her at the beginning of the story as someone who doesn't care about righteous causes or "making things right," but that she rediscovers that those are important to her in the meeting on Jeddha and again later on Eadu. I honestly couldn't get a solid read on Jyn's character, not until after she watches the message from her father on Jeddah. I've mentioned this before, but we're introduced to her under really vague circumstances. Who is she? What is she? What does she want? I don't know how long it takes the movie for her to get the message on Jeddah, but everything prior to that she's just a blank vessel of a character that I wasn't really rooting for or against because the film didn't really give me anything concrete to work with. temple posted:Jyn isn't an anti-hero. Maybe Saw was. You are creating a strawman just to knock it down. Jyn is a reluctant hero. Semantics. I initially said Jyn is more of an antihero in comparison to Rey before, and in the post above I more so meant she comes off more like an antihero. My bad. I'll back that antihero-esque implication though, that she might actually have been a radical fighting for the cause against the Empire before being abandoned by Saw. We don't know that for sure, but we do know she was the best fighter in Saw's rebel cell, so ehh? She could have been some batshit insane insurgent, and maybe she was like Saw and shared his beliefs and worked with his methods. But then maybe she turned her ways after being abandoned by Saw. I don't know though. The movie fails at characterizing her. I really would have preferred if she were more like an antihero tbh, because then she might have been an interesting character. I really was under the impression that Jyn was going to be like a female Han solo from the trailers. I was one who loved the "I rebel" line, and thought she was going to be this bold, brash, and cocky antiheroine. [edit] To add to that, Saw's line in the trailer "What will you become" also led me to believe that Jyn was a rebel with a lot of blood on her hands, and that Saw was getting in her head about her possibly thinking she could ever be an actual hero, or at least make amends and atone herself by stealing the Death Star plans. Oh well, at the least the film didn't let me down with the fan service. teagone fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Jan 10, 2017 |
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Jan 10, 2017 03:55
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temple posted:Jyn isn't an anti-hero. Maybe Saw was. You are creating a strawman just to knock it down. Jyn is a reluctant hero. I feel Forest Whitaker was misused in this movie too. Also Mads Mikkelsen, both guys are good actors and should have been given more screen time interacting with Jyn to build a connection. Jack2142 fucked around with this message at 03:59 on Jan 10, 2017 |
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Jan 10, 2017 03:56
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Jerkface posted:Listing her crimes is less cool than showing them. Imo what coulda been cool is after the rogue one title we cut to a montage of jyn growing up under saw doing crime and learning to be a terrorist (like 12 year old jyn building an ied that blows up a troop carrier) intercut with mads working on the death star and looking stoic thinking about jyn. End it with saw abandoning her during an ambush/raid gone wrong and her ending in jail with the same scenes of her getting busted out. Change the cassian scene to the guy knowing jyns where abouts and stick in between the two prison scenes. Just read this, but you put into words exactly what I've been imagining. A montage like that would have been great.
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Jan 10, 2017 05:14
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Looke posted:What's the top contender? Forces of Destiny
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Jan 10, 2017 15:37
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Danger posted:Forces of Destiny I can't imagine they'd go with something so close to The Force Awakens with the very next episodic movie.
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Jan 10, 2017 15:42
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I dont think Star Wars has ever done a montage. They barely do flash backs.
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Jan 10, 2017 15:44
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thrawn527 posted:I can't imagine they'd go with something so close to The Force Awakens with the very next episodic movie. The rumor stems from Disney applying for a fuckton of merchandising trademarks with that subtitle in the EU.
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Jan 10, 2017 16:02
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