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GoutPatrol posted:Yeah with the slight nerfing of infect and getting Fatal Push B/W tokens is looking better. Still folds to Tron and R/G Breach pretty hard though. If you are having issues with r/g breech and tron simply play with a few ghost quarters main and extractions out of the board. Yes it might make your processions slightly worse but it would greatly improve the matchup.
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Jan 10, 2017 04:26
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Sigma-X posted:Between shock and push there are plenty of 1 mana ways to interact with it, and it's only a turn 4 kill if they keep a planeswalker up for a whole turn beforehand without it taking 2 damage. Oppressive? I don't think it will be. Format defining? Sure, but so was Rhino. Play against it. It's oppressive. Being able to do nothing after Turn 4 is loving miserable. The Siege Rhino comparison is just lolworthy. Even back to back Rhinos don't cause you to instantly lose the game from any boardstate. Also you can't reliably trigger revolt in Standard so saying you can Push the Cat is even dumber. It's 2 cards that instantly lose the game. I don't get how you think that's not broken in a standard that doesn't even have Duress, much less Lightning Bolt or Doom Blade. Angry Grimace fucked around with this message at 04:35 on Jan 10, 2017 |
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Jan 10, 2017 04:32
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Sigma-X posted:and it's only a turn 4 kill if they keep a planeswalker up for a whole turn beforehand without it taking 2 damage. This is straight-up untrue. Even if saheeli is on 1 loyalty (i.e. they did three damage), you can blink her with the initial etb trigger when you play the cat. So you have to be able to deal four damage to a planeswalker on turn 3 (on the draw), through whatever your opponent has played on turn 1 and 2, or you have to have instant-speed interaction. If you have neither of those you just lose.
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Jan 10, 2017 04:40
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:Sorry about your luck but you should probably check you aren't buying into the most degenerate standard in recent history before dropping $$$. Actually it's not I'm going to go against the grain on the standard bans and say they're really bad because anyone who would've been trading and scrimping towards a good standard deck just got absolutely hosed and they're going to do this all over again 6 weeks from now when the Jeskai infinite combo rolls right over standard with it's main competition having gotten neutered. If they wanted people to think they can play with their standard cards for a while they've done a really loving bad job of that, why buy into a rotating format where your already time-limited cards are at the mercy of people with some fairly bad card evaluation? E: That five weeks after a Pro Tour caveat seems aimed squarely at that deck, too, so I wouldn't be buying into it unless you wanted to play one tournament with it and then have a useless deck. TheKingofSprings fucked around with this message at 04:43 on Jan 10, 2017 |
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Jan 10, 2017 04:40
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Jabor posted:This is straight-up untrue. Even if saheeli is on 1 loyalty (i.e. they did three damage), you can blink her with the initial etb trigger when you play the cat. The idea that it's not oppressive if you don't actually die on Turn 4 is also dumb.
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Jan 10, 2017 04:43
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Standard did not get unfucked, either things aren't changing or something else just moved up the bell curve and will go on the chopping block if WotC doesn't get the results they're looking for. The Probe ban is probably for the best but the GGT ban kinda sucks, I just got that together for my brother-in-law so I hope it's still a viable deck with slightly weakened Dredgers.
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Jan 10, 2017 04:48
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Angry Grimace posted:Play against it. It's oppressive. Being able to do nothing after Turn 4 is loving miserable. A lot of people are playtesting this deck and coming back with it being pretty amazing. So far b/r aggro of quite a few varieties are doing pretty well though but are having to adapt strictly for it. TheKingofSprings posted:E: That five weeks after a Pro Tour caveat seems aimed squarely at that deck, too, so I wouldn't be buying into it unless you wanted to play one tournament with it and then have a useless deck. At least standard season will only be half over when they ban the combo. It was no doubt aimed at this dumb combo and its a shame they let it make it into live. Anybody who played emmy knew it was broken and unfun. They chose to invest into those decks anyway because WOTC has been too lax on that stuff for too long. Yes people confidence is broken in the thought that WoTC is going to ignore broken poo poo. Hopefully WOTC is more committed to banning stuff sooner. How loud was the bitching when eye was banned during eldrazi winter? Sickening fucked around with this message at 04:55 on Jan 10, 2017 |
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Jan 10, 2017 04:48
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Do we have a list available?
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Jan 10, 2017 04:53
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I'm interested to hear what people are hearing for why people aren't showing up to standard at the local level these days, because I really think the decline in standard is Hearthstone finally catching up to WotC and cutting into them but I'd like to get an idea if that's the case or not
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Jan 10, 2017 04:53
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Sickening posted:At least standard season will only be half over when they ban the combo. It was no doubt aimed at this dumb combo and its a shame they let it make it into live. There's a potentially funny reason why they made it through. Saheeli Rai was printed only because Creative went to development late in the process and asked if they could possibly squeeze her in. They already had 3 planeswalkers, but reluctantly agreed to fit her in as long as she was 2 color and not powerful. So, fast forward to AER, they already have "she's deliberately not powerful by design" stuck in their head, and its likely that no one saw the combo until it was too late. Right now they are probably hoping its too unreliable or fragile to be oppressive, but they are preparing to break up the combo a month after the PT in case it turns out to be broken.
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Jan 10, 2017 04:54
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Veyrall posted:Do we have a list available? Angry Grimace has a list and there's an UWR value list that had Saheeli the Cat slots right into as well, so it'll likely be something similar to one of those two.
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Jan 10, 2017 04:54
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TheKingofSprings posted:The Probe ban is probably for the best but the GGT ban kinda sucks, I just got that together for my brother-in-law so I hope it's still a viable deck with slightly weakened Dredgers. Dredge is still fine with the Thug.
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Jan 10, 2017 04:57
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TheKingofSprings posted:I'm interested to hear what people are hearing for why people aren't showing up to standard at the local level these days, because I really think the decline in standard is Hearthstone finally catching up to WotC and cutting into them but I'd like to get an idea if that's the case or not Anecdotally, I would rather play hearthstone for an hour at home forever for free than sink $300 into a deck that is going to turn into useless cardboard in a few months that I play for 3-4 hours once a week.
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Jan 10, 2017 04:59
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Rigel posted:There's a potentially funny reason why they made it through. Saheeli Rai was printed only because Creative went to development late in the process and asked if they could possibly squeeze her in. They already had 3 planeswalkers, but reluctantly agreed to fit her in as long as she was 2 color and not powerful. I wouldn't be surprised if the cub only flickered creatures at first, but they wanted it to play nicer with the vehicles and artifacts that have etb effects and so gave it a last-minute buff.
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Jan 10, 2017 05:01
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Veyrall posted:Do we have a list available? Lists are loving shifting around so much right now its not funny. Its the elephant in the room and its PT testing time, so all the top pros are tight lipped as possible right now. Honestly its just a mix of red and white removal, a mix of countermagic to protect the combo, and the combo. Blue gearhulks, thing in the ice, anticipate, and even cards like baral. The funny thing is that creature drops 2-3 cmc tend to put in a lot of work because people dont' want to waste removal on them. mattah posted:Dredge is still fine with the Thug. Dredge is playable with thug. The deck is without a doubt a worse deck now. Dredge 6 vs 4 is a really big deal. Sickening fucked around with this message at 05:08 on Jan 10, 2017 |
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Jan 10, 2017 05:06
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Veyrall posted:Do we have a list available? I'm doing a hybrid list now that reflector mage is out with white and red removal, counters, spell queller, drowner, displacer, panharmonicon and the cat combo
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Jan 10, 2017 05:15
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I'm guessing the PT meta is going to be jeskai aggro (with the combo), jeskai control (with the combo), jeskai midrange (with the combo), and various r/b lists that each beat one variant but lose to the others
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Jan 10, 2017 05:15
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Sickening posted:Dredge is playable with thug. The deck is without a doubt a worse deck now. Dredge 6 vs 4 is a really big deal. Yeah it's worse, but I think it still might be a problem. If everyone thinks it's now dead, you might find that graveyard hate goes away a bit also, so that would help. Also, the fast aggro decks that hurt it took a big hit with Probe going away. Finally, it also gets access Fatal Push if it wants it.
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Jan 10, 2017 05:17
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Christ it just occured to me that if you can't kill Saheeli on turn 3 they can deploy the cat on turn 4 with Dispel back up. So you need to have 2 answers or rep 2 answers on your turn 3/4. Enjoy not ever being able to tap out for the rest of the game I guess! e: wait no nevermind got my ordering mixed up. Ok you just need to rep 1 answer on turn 4.
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Jan 10, 2017 05:18
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Jabor posted:I'm guessing the PT meta is going to be jeskai aggro (with the combo), jeskai control (with the combo), jeskai midrange (with the combo), and various r/b lists that each beat one variant but lose to the others G/W is also pretty good with that enchantment that taps creatures when they come into play. Funny thing is that stupid enchantment from the planeswalker deck that fogs for a turn is actually an option against the deck that a few I know are exploring. I will laugh if it ever catches on.
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Jan 10, 2017 05:18
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Sickening posted:Dredge is playable with thug. The deck is without a doubt a worse deck now. Dredge 6 vs 4 is a really big deal. If you think of it as 6>5 and 5>4 it doesn't seem as bad.
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Jan 10, 2017 05:20
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Sigma-X posted:Between shock and push there are plenty of 1 mana ways to interact with it, and it's only a turn 4 kill if they keep a planeswalker up for a whole turn beforehand without it taking 2 damage. Oppressive? I don't think it will be. Format defining? Sure, but so was Rhino. Wait, what are you doing that you're triggering Revolt on the opponent's turn in standard? Genuinely curious. Others have already mentioned the thing about blinking Saheeli, but that's probably a sign you haven't considered everything this dumb combo is capable of. Saheeli is underpowered compared to something like Liliana, but she's still a reasonable three mana planeswalker if she's both a scry engine, combo piece, and has other value cards that you can copy. The Cat blinking things is only as powerful as the things its blinking, but the fact that you can play either combo piece in either order makes the combo very resilient. You can just run out a 1/4 if you need to and untap a land or blink some card with an EtB ability, or you can play Saheeli and try to use her to accrue value. The fact that your opponent must immediately kill Saheeli, or keep up mana forever, while you just hang out and do your own thing makes the combo, just like the Twin combo was, into a significant pressure on your opponents resources even when you don't actually have the combo pieces. If you're on 5 lands, your opponent never gets to tap out because you can just go land #6, Cat, blink land, Saheeli kill you. That's stupid.
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Jan 10, 2017 05:30
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I'm sticking with GR energy for standard. I just need to figure out the upgrades with AER cards.
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Jan 10, 2017 05:31
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A meta where delirium spider no long has a good deck is really going to open things up for aggro.
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Jan 10, 2017 05:34
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:Sorry about your luck but you should probably check you aren't buying into the most degenerate standard in recent history before dropping $$$. Is standard really that bad? My only real exposure to magic lately has been SCG when Patrick and Cedric hit the booth and that hasn't happened since mid December.
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Jan 10, 2017 05:38
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C-Euro posted:Also FWIW people complain about Modern being the format of "who draws their SB hate first?" but if you believe the people on this board it's the most popular Constructed format right now sooooo It isn't better than legacy but everyone here has come to the conclusion that I did a year or so ago, legacy is dead except for select areas like vintage so you just don't get to play the cool and fun formats unless you like MODO which hahahaha nobody does. So you take the best thing widely available which is modern. jassi007 fucked around with this message at 05:48 on Jan 10, 2017 |
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Jan 10, 2017 05:42
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Sickening posted:Anybody who played emmy knew it was broken and unfun. They chose to invest into those decks anyway because WOTC has been too lax on that stuff for too long. Yes people confidence is broken in the thought that WoTC is going to ignore broken poo poo. Hopefully WOTC is more committed to banning stuff sooner. How loud was the bitching when eye was banned during eldrazi winter? Punishing players who bought into the game, while also using the secondary market as rationale for why every powerful card needs to be a rare or mythic, is not a good strategy for the longevity of the game, let alone Standard. Even the new shortened ban window is a disincentive to for players, because now your choices are either play the best deck using possibly broken cards that will get banned or play a less powerful and/or effective deck that will get stomped until the next round of bans. If WOTC wanted to avoid making players "feel bad" then they sure chose a weird way to go about it. TheKingofSprings posted:I'm interested to hear what people are hearing for why people aren't showing up to standard at the local level these days, because I really think the decline in standard is Hearthstone finally catching up to WotC and cutting into them but I'd like to get an idea if that's the case or not I would love to see data on this, but we'll never get it from Hasbro or WOTC short of someone leaking it. I imagine that it's not quite as deep as folks make it out to be, but they're certainly making it easier for Hearthstone, Duelyst, etc to make in-roads with disaffected MTG players just by sheer incompetence and mismanagement. I know I've thought about picking up Hearthstone in lieu of MTG just because it's mobile-accessible and seems fairly low barrier to entry as far as costs go.
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Jan 10, 2017 05:47
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jassi007 posted:It isn't better than legacy but everyone here has come to the conclusion that I did a year or so ago, legacy is dead except for select areas like vintage so you just don't get to play the cool and fun formats unless you like MODO which hahahaha nobody does. So you take the best thing widely available which is modern. This is pretty much the truth, Legacy is the best constructed format but Wizards has very thoroughly killed it.
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Jan 10, 2017 05:49
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jassi007 posted:It isn't better than legacy but everyone here has come to the conclusion that I did a year or so ago, legacy is dead except for select areas like vintage so you just don't get to play the cool and fun formats unless you like MODO which hahahaha nobody does. So you take the best thing widely available which is modern. I meant most popular in the general population, I know Legacy is dope and goons love Legacy and I'm sad I'll never be able to play it with anyone (at least in paper)
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Jan 10, 2017 05:55
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C-Euro posted:I meant most popular in the general population, I know Legacy is dope and goons love Legacy and I'm sad I'll never be able to play it with anyone (at least in paper) Right. I mean I don't think its even a question that modern is the most popular constructed format. Well it might be if you consider kitchen table and / or EDH constructed formats, those are probably more popular than modern, but in terms of "dci sanctioned play" I'd wager that modern is the most popular. I don't think anyone can dispute that standard attendance is in the toliet, WOTC is obviously taking actions that indicate it is. The question is "how bad is it" and we probably won't find out the answer. The real funny part is they historically love to blame standard attendance problems on degenerate poo poo. I think Emrakul was unfun as hell, but I don't think it was degenerate in the way that Urza's block or Mirrodin block were. Also I'd guess we're all curious what happens next because I don't think rotation or Emmy is going to solve all of the problems they have. jassi007 fucked around with this message at 06:04 on Jan 10, 2017 |
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Jan 10, 2017 05:58
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Its times like this when I recognize that my decision to be a limited-only player is a good one. Wizards caters to me, they design and develop for me before anybody else because I'm buying their boosters, selling off all the mythics, and I help fuel the secondary market, and in return I get a rich new gaming environment every 3 months, and I don't even know what I'm going to loving play when I sit down, not even my colors, and I get to play with WAY more cards than standard or eternal players. Scoff at my common vanilla creature if you want, but sometimes I'm riding that little guy to victory! If you are not trying to be a literal magic pro and you can afford to only play limited, then just do it, trust me its probably more fun, and I have no anxiety about bans. I actively root for them, because I want to watch something interesting during pro tours.
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Jan 10, 2017 06:22
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Rigel posted:Its times like this when I recognize that my decision to be a limited-only player is a good one. Wizards caters to me, they design and develop for me before anybody else because I'm buying their boosters, selling off all the mythics, and I help fuel the secondary market, and in return I get a rich new gaming environment every 3 months, and I don't even know what I'm going to loving play when I sit down, not even my colors, and I get to play with WAY more cards than standard or eternal players. Scoff at my common vanilla creature if you want, but sometimes I'm riding that little guy to victory! Counterpoint: Limited is horribly unfun and I hate pretty much everything about it. EMA and MMA excluded. Edit: I actually really like drafting. It's the rest of it that I hate. suicidesteve fucked around with this message at 06:43 on Jan 10, 2017 |
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Jan 10, 2017 06:26
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suicidesteve posted:Counterpoint: Limited is horribly unfun and I hate pretty much everything about it. EMA and MMA excluded. Same except constructed. It baffles me that they steer new players towards it. All the games are the same once you see a matchup a couple times and you have to constantly fiddle with your collection editing I. It's bad, op. E: For doubly wrong opinion, ema and mma aren't even that good limited formats since they can't balance things very well and have to keep an eye on reprint quotas.
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Jan 10, 2017 06:29
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I enjoy drafting, games of limited are really boring tho imo unless you pull out some absurd or hilarious deck. If I could only play cube for drafts I would, because you get to draft those decks a lot more often there.
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Jan 10, 2017 06:31
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This is the first time super casual me ran a card that gets banned in Standard, i must be gittin gud.
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Jan 10, 2017 06:47
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Get the best of both worlds and... cube
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Jan 10, 2017 06:47
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Baron Porkface posted:This is the first time super casual me ran a card that gets banned in Standard, i must be gittin gud. I play JtMS or Stoneforge every week. Everyone could if WotC cared about legacy at all! Pontius Pilate posted:Get the best of both worlds and... Yeah just do this.
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Jan 10, 2017 06:50
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Pontius Pilate posted:Get the best of both worlds and... I've got a pauper cube and it is the best.
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Jan 10, 2017 06:51
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TheKingofSprings posted:I'm interested to hear what people are hearing for why people aren't showing up to standard at the local level these days, because I really think the decline in standard is Hearthstone finally catching up to WotC and cutting into them but I'd like to get an idea if that's the case or not i think mtg is still bar none the best tcg you can play even with their constant gently caress ups, but the level of time and energy you have to invest to play the game even casually is completely absurd and i think that over time they've ground people down by trying to use the same constant engagement model as f2p stuff does, but without ever rewarding people AND making them spend a lot of money to little benefit.
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Jan 10, 2017 06:54
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ThePeavstenator posted:I enjoy drafting, games of limited are really boring tho imo unless you pull out some absurd or hilarious deck. If I could only play cube for drafts I would, because you get to draft those decks a lot more often there. Saying that limited is boring is insane if your alternative is constructed a few weeks after release. You are literally seeing and predicting that your opponent has in hand the same stupid loving efficient card you've had to beat in that guy's netdeck over and over again. Meanwhile, my opponent could have anything, I don't loving know. Sure I might have a guess, but he might be some weirdo who is playing some card that I've deemed to be unplayable and only seen played once before at most, but he decided to board it in and it actually might be bad for me in this situation.
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Jan 10, 2017 07:02
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