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Went to do swamp, last floor had Louise and Lenny so no. Did spider instead, got confused by a lone tarantella on Spider:4 that kept confusing me, then a emperor scorpion and moth of wrath just happened to show up. Guess how that ended. I'm losing my loving mind trying to win with this lovely combo just so its not a stain on my scoreboard  PleasingFungus posted:the idea is that it discourages the Hypothetically Optimal Behaviour of luring every single enemy you encounter a screen or two back before fighting it, so that nearby enemies don't wander into the fight or something. People running weak combos in the early game do that because running up to fight some orcs is dumb when there could be an orc priest just outside of LOS. This is a simple Crawl strat, I had no idea why it is considered a problem. How else are you supposed to survive getting dropped into a bad situation if strategic retreats are discouraged?
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Jan 10, 2017 01:16
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e: removed salt.
PleasingFungus fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Jan 10, 2017 |
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Jan 10, 2017 01:19
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I am very much interested in actual feedback on the dynamical monsters thing. ("actual" = from CBRO games, not from hypothesising how bad it'll be) The effect itself is very straightforward, to make coding and testing easy: bonus to movement speed, and various monster numbers increased. NO additional xp, of course, and the effect will not time out. This is intended to trigger decisions, and for this to work, characters will have to bite it. For the good cause. There are more elaborate concepts (not by me), but that's somehow a stepping stone. And as usual: if you do not lure, because you're cool and/or a newb, you won't even notice the change  (That was mostly a joke.)
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Jan 10, 2017 01:23
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Wow, I thought PleasingFungus was still a dev. Maybe he quit over
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Jan 10, 2017 01:29
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brainwrinkle posted:Wow, I thought PleasingFungus was still a dev. Maybe he quit over I guess that's why we're losing the good wands, HEs, and Ogre M&F apts ACD have to deal with dpeg - because the good dev left.
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Jan 10, 2017 01:37
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0.19 seems like a good version to stick to.
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Jan 10, 2017 01:40
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I'm dumb and obsessed with unarmed combat builds. I'm foolishly playing an Octopode transmuter with this in mind and then this thing drops: The +9 falchion of Viyklo Wasoa {holy, rElec rPois MR++ Int+4} Since I haven't played crawl in like 4 years I dunno if that is any good but it ... seems good? Should I abandon my foolish quest and start cutting things up or tentacle-punch my way to victory still?
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Jan 10, 2017 01:41
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dpeg posted:I am very much interested in actual feedback on the dynamical monsters thing. ("actual" = from CBRO games, not from hypothesising how bad it'll be) What the gently caress is being accomplished with this You do realize luring is done by weaker characters that can't take head on fights yet? Are you saying people should never play anything outside of power combos that can just steamroll everything they run into right away? Why on earth is luring a problem in the first place? Kaedric posted:I'm dumb and obsessed with unarmed combat builds. I'm foolishly playing an Octopode transmuter with this in mind and then this thing drops: The +9 falchion of Viyklo Wasoa {holy, rElec rPois MR++ Int+4} Its a falchion so no. It'll be okay in the early game due to the high enchantment level but later on it'll be bad even with long swords investment. In the midgame it'll be particularly poor since very little will be affected by the holy brand.
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Jan 10, 2017 01:45
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Speleothing posted:I guess that's why we're losing the good wands, HEs, and Ogre M&F apts ACD have to deal with dpeg - because the good dev left.
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Jan 10, 2017 01:45
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Internet Kraken posted:What the gently caress is being accomplished with this
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Jan 10, 2017 01:46
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You are responsible for your own lack of creativity, intelligence and manners, though. You've got this weird thing going on where you pretend people saying mean things cause you're an rear end don't bother you half the time and then you freak out the other half.
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Jan 10, 2017 01:50
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dpeg posted:What kind of loving answers do you expect by loving around like this? Am I responsible for your lack of intelligence, creativity and manners? HELL NO!  I dunno, I never really expect answers from you since you're extremely belligerent and are selective with what you answer. Usually I can see the thought process behind a change even if I disagree with it, but that change absolutely baffles me. PleasingFungus is actually helpful but if he's not a dev anymore then so much for getting any good insight into their thought process.
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Jan 10, 2017 01:50
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So if you're going to give monsters a buff to movement speed and other non-XP numbers, how are you determining that? Is it just movement or is there a "Has moved X spaces without taking Y damage" component? Let's say I play a SpVM: I'm going to kite things because A: poison and B: I'm faster than they are. If they're getting faster and tougher as I kite them, it's completely counterproductive for me to use my race/starting spells to my advantage. This is to say nothing of bats/phantoms/imps/unseen horrors whose attack pattern is a mixture of movement towards/away from the player.
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Jan 10, 2017 02:11
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redneck nazgul posted:So if you're going to give monsters a buff to movement speed and other non-XP numbers, how are you determining that? Is it just movement or is there a "Has moved X spaces without taking Y damage" component? quote:Let's say I play a SpVM: I'm going to kite things because A: poison and B: I'm faster than they are. If they're getting faster and tougher as I kite them, it's completely counterproductive for me to use my race/starting spells to my advantage. The branch is a proof of concept. If this goes anywhere, then, like any bigger change, it will cause follow-up changes. I guess I should advertise the whole thing completely differently: Naga buff! Chei buff!!
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Jan 10, 2017 02:18
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dpeg posted:What kind of loving answers do you expect by loving around like this? Am I responsible for your lack of intelligence, creativity and manners? HELL NO! Internet Kraken posted:Does MR have any impact on tarantulas confusion bites? If not, how exactly am I supposed to do spider as a mummy and not die to a confusion stunlock?
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Jan 10, 2017 02:27
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IronicDongz posted:they asked a question dude. it's not really clear what the answer is because luring is not a "problem" to 99% of the people playing this game If "luring is not a "problem"", how does the change hurt? We are the 99%? On a scale of 1-10, how willing are players to try out new things? How willing to bash attempts? The dpeg & SA incompatibility: (1) juvenile jerks vs old fart? (2) US vs Germany? (3) highschool vs highschool teacher? Whatever it is, communication with you guys sure is hard.
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Jan 10, 2017 02:35
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A lot of us are old and also in academia.
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Jan 10, 2017 02:40
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Additionally, is the idea something along these lines? "Enemy can see player, enemy can move towards player (i.e, not obstructed by other monsters/terrain), enemy is not taking other offensive/defensive actions, enemy gets a small bonus X% of the time" If it's just "Bonus gained for seeing player", then I see it becoming a huge slog in branch ends where you're trying to cut through a bunch of chaff to hit the actually nasty things, except that the nasty things are summoning/casting buff spells and getting small bonuses the entire time. It's not going to make Orc 2 any more meaningful if the warlord in the back constantly warcrying is also growing to Saint Roka strength while I cut through all of his minions, it's just going to drain more of my resources and make me wonder if those four shops at the bottom are even worth the effort.
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Jan 10, 2017 02:49
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I have never heard of the luring you describe as being a problem. Usually when I've heard people talk about luring being to strong, its in reference to the act of getting the attention of monsters, then ducking around a corner into a 2 tile murder hole where only one enemy can be in LOS at any given time. That entire strategy revolves around not maintaining LOS though, so these proposed changes would barely impact it. A change that buffs monsters just for spending turns in sight of you would be crazy and basically change the entire game. Unless the timer for this to activate is super long, but then it wouldn't do anything to the supposedly problematic strategy in question since you only spend a few turns retreating to a safe spot before killing them. EDIT: And I would say 99% of players would be confused by this since the game seems designed around strategic retreats being a core part of survival. Like, when I run into a pack of elephants out in the open, am I supposed to just run up and fight them? Lots of characters in early Lair couldn't handle that. The smart thing to do is to retreat to an area where you can handle them 1 by 1 but apparently doing that is seen by the devs as a problem? dpeg posted:The dpeg & SA incompatibility: (1) juvenile jerks vs old fart? (2) US vs Germany? (3) highschool vs highschool teacher? Whatever it is, communication with you guys sure is hard. I'm pretty sure most people on SA are out of highschool. We're not exactly a hip website nowadays. The problem with communicating with you might have to do with the fact that you come across as openly hostile. I mean right of the you're text is an insult to the intelligence of the community. I imagine that's supposed to be a joke but you freak out anytime anyone is even slightly aggressive towards you so it reads as genuine anger. Also, again, you appear very selective in what you actually respond to. So when you act like you're looking for feedback its frustrating for people that put genuine effort into providing answers and then get totally ignored. Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 03:00 on Jan 10, 2017 |
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Jan 10, 2017 02:53
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FR: When orcs get a certain sufficient of bonus they turn into Roka. Edit: Oh god thinking about the "dynamic monsters" thing it'd be the death of formicids. Carcer fucked around with this message at 02:56 on Jan 10, 2017 |
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Jan 10, 2017 02:53
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"The orc is OGRECOME WITH RAGE!"
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Jan 10, 2017 02:55
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change Slime Pits to Frog Pits
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Jan 10, 2017 02:57
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The Royal Jelly could still work if you made it one of those frogs that carry babies on/in their backs.
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Jan 10, 2017 02:59
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There's definitely a lot of unconstructive criticism that gets tossed around in here (a lot of solid constructive criticism as well) with people tripping over themselves to post hyperbolic sick burn rhetorical questions that don't really have an answer along the lines of "what the gently caress is the dev team thinking?" or "do they even understand the game they're making?" The best criticism posts aren't the ones tripping over themselves to tell the devs how dumb they are but rather the ones with measured criticisms of the changes and actual questions about the reasoning behind the changes. Dpeg seems better than most about keeping communication open if occasionally a bit flippant and selective with his responses. On a lighter note, I just attained my first win! Went with a hill orc monk, or HOMo for short as I still enjoy pointing out, and wound up being able to recruit Saint Roka. Once I got a few warlords going it got real easy to just pull poo poo up a staircase into a pack of high level orcs with polearms. Just a 3 rune win but I'm pretty drat proud of myself. I might hop to the new version and try out the frog race now.
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Jan 10, 2017 03:04
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dpeg posted:If "luring is not a "problem"", how does the change hurt?
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Jan 10, 2017 03:06
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brainwrinkle posted:Wow, I thought PleasingFungus was still a dev. Maybe he quit over sorry, i didn't give enough context there. i retired a while ago:  after i got pretty stressed out while trying to take responsibility over every part of crawl dev. everything i've been doing since then has been on a purely pro-bono, consultative basis, as a crawl-dev alumnus. i guess basically the point, aside from repeating old dumb in-jokes that amuse only me, is that crawl dev is a team project. unless i install myself as crawl dictator (which sounds like one of the worst fates imaginable), all i can do to shape the direction of development is to argue my positions as persuasively as i can. sometimes consensus is gonna go against me, and that's just the way things are!
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Jan 10, 2017 03:17
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dpeg posted:If "luring is not a "problem"", how does the change hurt? quote:(2) US vs Germany?
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Jan 10, 2017 03:30
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dpeg why are you so angry my dude. just bring back high elves and dont do that thing youre talking about, and we're cool.
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Jan 10, 2017 04:31
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If luring is not a problem, why is the change intended to remove it as a tactical option? Murderholes will still be a thing. Murderholes in general are far more powerful and probably not intended behavior, but this change does nothing to combat it. The change also makes tough early game situations much more lethal for the weakest early game combos.
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Jan 10, 2017 04:31
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Speleothing posted:Possible, but all the Germans I've met have had a sense of humor. The funny ones all leave
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Jan 10, 2017 04:42
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It's time to just say that Crawl is done being developed and release a final version and be done with it. The constant tinkering to things that are only important to the IRC cabal with commit privileges shows that either there's nothing left of consequence to do or there's no willpower to address things people outside the speed run clubhouse actually would like to see changed (e.g. post game). At some point you've got to walk away.
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Jan 10, 2017 05:23
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I'd like to throw my two cents in because I think I'm a good middle ground between starters and veterans- I started playing consistently in .07 offline, and online when CSZO went live. I've played for a while but I also suck and don't win much, due to my own impatience. DCSS is one of my favorite games. I'm going to play a few games to be sure, but dynamic monsters sounds awful. To me, one of the core skills that Crawl teaches is advantageous positioning. I haven't loved all of the changes that have happened that have happened since I started playing, but I have been able to understand the rationale behind all of them, and I've kept playing the whole time. Dynamic monsters seems like it will essentially force every player to play a combination that can dish out enough damage to kill enemies in a few turns to avoid monsters powering up and destroying you. I think Crawl has made progress in the last few versions with monsters that can destroy walls, and I think terrain destruction/alteration is a much better path to pursue. Positioning and pulling have been such a huge component of Crawl that I think the change will fundamentally change the game by making every enemy potentially dangerous when in LOS if there are a lot of others or one very powerful enemy. Every pack becomes far more dangerous. Run in to an Orc pack and want to take out their priest/wizard first? The other guys get stronger! I think it will be nearly impossible to balance without eliminating packs. It makes a lot of sense if enemies only spawn as singles and everything else is still the same- you're forced into a tough decision if a few very tough enemies spawn near each other. If you keep packs in the game, then either you are powerful enough to kill all of them regardless of the new changes, you run and possibly get caught with the new mechanics while they get buffs that don't wear off, or you die. This is all ignoring the fact that Tengu, Centaur, and Spriggan would get a huge nerf.
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Jan 10, 2017 05:25
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Janissary Hop posted:It's time to just say that Crawl is done being developed and release a final version and be done with it. The constant tinkering to things that are only important to the IRC cabal with commit privileges shows that either there's nothing left of consequence to do or there's no willpower to address things people outside the speed run clubhouse actually would like to see changed (e.g. post game). At some point you've got to walk away. Yeah I remember you poo poo posting in an older thread, I think .17 possibly, where you offered no solutions to anything being changed at that time either. You don't offer anything constructive. Regardless of how I feel about dynamic monsters, most of the changes to the game are positive. Also you're assuming devs give a poo poo about speed runs. Most elite players I see here really don't care much because the behaviors you need to speed run are a lot of the time counterproductive if you care about winrate.
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Jan 10, 2017 05:33
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I just had a frog game end because I used immolation on a group of enemies, hopped away, and shot one, only to have an unseen horror that was also there get caught in the explosion and blast me too. That was a fun death.
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Jan 10, 2017 05:43
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dpeg posted:The dpeg & SA incompatibility: (1) juvenile jerks vs old fart? (2) US vs Germany? (3) highschool vs highschool teacher? Whatever it is, communication with you guys sure is hard. Dogg you poisoned the well ages ago and very much established yourself as an rear end in a top hat who constantly points out their superiority to everyone in here even if you don't intend for that to be the case, is where the communication was hurt This is pretty much how everyone in here perceives you, regardless of their respect as one of the devs of the game, and it was pretty much your own fault
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Jan 10, 2017 05:56
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Does the proposed change ruin the stealth mechanic?
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Jan 10, 2017 06:05
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Goodpancakes posted:Does the proposed change ruin the stealth mechanic? yeah, probably, but just think of all the 'problems' that will be solved
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Jan 10, 2017 06:12
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Goodpancakes posted:Does the proposed change ruin the stealth mechanic? I'd assume the effect can't kick in if a monster hasn't noticed you/is asleep. Janissary Hop posted:It's time to just say that Crawl is done being developed and release a final version and be done with it. The constant tinkering to things that are only important to the IRC cabal with commit privileges shows that either there's nothing left of consequence to do or there's no willpower to address things people outside the speed run clubhouse actually would like to see changed (e.g. post game). At some point you've got to walk away. Eh, I don't really agree with that. I mean as you point out there are a lot things that still desperately need to be improved (post game). I do agree though that devs seem to touch stuff that isn't generally considered to be a problem. This luring change would be the first one I think that would really ruin the game. I've disagreed with changes before, but always felt the good outweighs the bad when it comes to new versions. This though? It would fundamentally change how the game is played to favor the already strong combos over weaker ones. Even if it doesn't go through, it feels weird to see so much effort focused on a problem that I think most players wouldn't even think exists.
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Jan 10, 2017 06:12
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PleasingFungus posted:sorry, i didn't give enough context there. i retired a while ago: gently caress dude, I thought you got voted off the island or something...
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Jan 10, 2017 06:22
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Janissary Hop posted:It's time to just say that Crawl is done being developed and release a final version and be done with it. The constant tinkering to things that are only important to the IRC cabal with commit privileges shows that either there's nothing left of consequence to do or there's no willpower to address things people outside the speed run clubhouse actually would like to see changed (e.g. post game). At some point you've got to walk away. What, didn't you know, Crawl is done being developed. The final release was 0.14, or maybe 0.15, or could it be 0.16, who the gently caress knows. Since it's final release, some arseholes created a branch of Crawl from that final release and basically all the new versions are just a branch by these arseholes. Some other arseholes keep updating the online versions to this branch these other arseholes created. But really the game has been done for a while now. Basically Crawl is full of arseholes is what I'm trying to say.
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Jan 10, 2017 06:25
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