Thalantos posted:

No....it still needed to be invented by someone, right? The Germans got to it first, although by the time they did in ww1 they didn't have the resources on a strategic level to really exploit it.

gohuskies posted:

Except the Germans didn't really get to it first. Infiltration tactics were developed by the French and all-arms coordination was done first and best by the British.

quote:

The demands of infantry fighting in the Second World War erased much of the romance of 'shock' troops, particularly when any well-trained infantry was capable of the same tactics, particularly in a formal assault on a well-defended objective

Thalantos posted:

Speaking of, Trin Triangula, I'm sad you stopped updating your blog.

Thalantos posted:

Would you have any resources about this? I know about the brits first doing more combined ops, but I didn't know about the French.

Did the Germans just do it better or something? Or is my pop history just that bad, lol?

Speaking of, Trin Triangula, I'm sad you stopped updating your blog.

spectralent posted:

That's what I meant. My memory was that in WW2 there was a realisation that specialised assault groups weren't a thing that was actually necessary, since any well-trained infantry group could do it.

I was pretty sure I wasn't making it up, so I checked wikipedia, and it more or less agreed, so I assume it's not a totally stupid thing to have thought.

gohuskies posted:

The aforementioned Battle Tactics of the Western Front is the best history of WWI infantry tactics. It focuses on the British first and foremost but it covers all three.

Germans are stereotyped for "storm trooper tactics" because sturmtruppen sounds badass, it fits with the image of stahlhelmed supermen carrying flamethrowers into the enemy trenches, and the Germans did have some offensive success in 1918 (for reasons other than their tactics). Meanwhile the British stereotype is Kitchner's boys slowly marching in line into MG fire at the Somme and the French stereotype is of either charging and dashing elan or mutiny, depending on the year of the war.

Schenck v. U.S. posted:

Jack2142 posted:

What? That sounds incredibly retarded for lack of better word.

spectralent posted:

That's what I meant. My memory was that in WW2 there was a realisation that specialised assault groups weren't a thing that was actually necessary, since any well-trained infantry group could do it.

I was pretty sure I wasn't making it up, so I checked wikipedia, and it more or less agreed, so I assume it's not a totally stupid thing to have thought.

Ensign Expendable posted:

The Soviets trained specialist assault groups in WWII, not for trench fighting, but for city fighting. For some offensives there would even be two types: those trained to fight at night and those trained to fight during the day.

Thalantos posted:

Speaking of, Trin Triangula, I'm sad you stopped updating your blog.

Thalantos posted:

Would you have any resources about this? I know about the brits first doing more combined ops, but I didn't know about the French.

Did the Germans just do it better or something? Or is my pop history just that bad, lol?

Speaking of, Trin Triangula, I'm sad you stopped updating your blog.

HEY GAL posted:

i know him irl and he told me he's trying to get back to it, if he can get away from some other life commitments long enough

Scrree posted:

At some point a while ago a 1944-era soviet assault troop manual was posted here, and the main takeaway I got from it was 'grenade every building, grenade every floor of every building, grenade every room of every floor of every building - a grenade is far cheaper than your life!' which I think shows a lot about how terrifying and cumbersome city clearing must have been.

spectralent posted:

That's what I meant. My memory was that in WW2 there was a realisation that specialised assault groups weren't a thing that was actually necessary, since any well-trained infantry group could do it.

Thalantos posted:

That's cool, well he has at least one goon who really dug it!

Does he need any help doing, like any annoying grunt work on it? I'd be willing to help.

lenoon posted:

I volunteered to help and then got a new job and didn't but I'm sure trin would appreciate it! I should really get off my rear end and put some work into it.

spectralent posted:

If there's anything I've learned from most wargames I've played it's that by far the easiest thing to do with cities is just go around and wait for everyone inside to run out of fuel and hopefully also food.

Thalantos posted:

That's cool, well he has at least one goon who really dug it!

Does he need any help doing, like any annoying grunt work on it? I'd be willing to help.

HEY GAL posted:

PM him and he'll probably take you up on it

Scrree posted:

At some point a while ago a 1944-era soviet assault troop manual was posted here, and the main takeaway I got from it was 'grenade every building, grenade every floor of every building, grenade every room of every floor of every building - a grenade is far cheaper than your life!' which I think shows a lot about how terrifying and cumbersome city clearing must have been.

Ensign Expendable posted:

The core of the Soviet urban assault team was the concept of an assault group. The table of organization for an assault group could vary depending on what unit it was formed by, but the general idea was the same. A few tanks and SPGs would accompany a group of infantry (between two squads and an entire company) along a street. The first echelon consisted of two tanks, driving on opposite sides of the street and keeping an eye on the opposing side's windows. Fire from the tanks' cannons, the roof-mounted heavy machinegun, and small arms of the infantry would clear out snipers and Panzerfaust crews hiding in the upper floors. Fire from the second echelon of tanks was aimed at street level anti-tank measures.

The group also had towed artillery and mortars available to them, usually a 76 mm divisional cannon. For more difficult demolition work, big guns (up to 203 mm) could be requested to fire either indirectly or roll up the street and get close and personal. Satchel charges or tank guns were commonly used to open up new routes around enemy strongholds. Well timed progress of armour meant that Soviet tanks could stop 100-200 meters from the target of a scheduled artillery barrage, help out with their own fire, and then immediately drive into the territory to make as much use as possible of the suppression effect.

The 1st Belorussian Front suggested the following composition of assault groups: "1-2 mounted machinegun units, 1-2 DShK machineguns, 1-2 sapper units, 3-8 flamethrowers, 2-3 chemists with smokescreens and incendiary chemicals, an anti-tank rifle unit, 3-4 guns of all types (45, 76, 122 mm, and sometimes even 152 mm), and 2-3 tanks and SPGs". Regular infantry units fighting in the city were also well supported: "Each infantry battalion was reinforced with a SU-76 battery, a SU-152 battery, a company of sappers, and was supported by one mortar regiment, the division's artillery regiment, which included all the division's mortars, 76 mm and 45 mm guns firing directly from the front lines, one burst from the division's rocket artillery, and howitzer batteries."

Of course, simply barreling down the street with a tank company wasn't always the best way of doing things, as the Germans tended to not play fair and set up complex ambushes or attempt to seep through Soviet front lines and attack the rear. Advance scouts had to uncover their plans and deal with them. One way of doing that was dragging up some rockets into the house across the street and suddenly opening up a hail of hellfire on the unsuspecting Germans.



Of course, eventually, you'd have to get into the building and fight in it. Here's the method for doing that, explained in comic book form! "Assault Group: Advance! A submachinegun around your neck, ten grenades at your disposal, courage in your heart, go!"

"Approach the enemy by hidden ways: trenches, ditches, breaches in the walls and fences. Move while prone. Use craters and ruins, you can hide well here. And then: a brave dash forward.
You will enter a labyrinth of rooms and obstacles, full of danger. Not a problem, a grenade in each corner! Enter the house with a friend: you and your grenade. Both of you should be dressed lightly: you should leave your rucksack behind, the grenade shouldn't have a fragmentation sleeve. The grenade goes in first, you go in after. A burst from your submachinegun at the ceiling remnants, and move on.

Another room, another grenade. Turn, one more grenade! Forward again! The enemy can counterattack. Do not be afraid. The initiative is in your hands. Use your grenades and submachinegun more tenaciously.

Sweep any suspicious corner with your submachinegun. Don't delay!

Blind the enemy in any way you can and strike from the darkness. Stab the confused enemy with your knife or chop them with your shovel."

spectralent posted:

The fact that comic books, nursery rhymes and sausages were used to explain warfare in WW2 never ceases to amaze.

I mean, I totally get it, you're more likely to remember a rhyming poem about liquidating someone than you are a dry lecture, it just seems to really exemplify the hosed-upness.

spectralent posted:

If there's anything I've learned from most wargames I've played it's that by far the easiest thing to do with cities is just go around and wait for everyone inside to run out of fuel and hopefully also food.

Also how substantial was the difference in strategic mobility between tanks with varying speeds in practise? My model here is the T-26 and BT series, but I was thinking that it's surely limited by the speed you can transport supplies, which presumably limits everyone in most of WW2 to horse or slow truck speeds.

Trin Tragula posted:

If there's anyone else out there who wants to do a few hours of work in the next couple of weeks, which you may or may not find interesting, in the name of getting my blog restarted, please do send me a PM.

my dad posted:

I just realized that I forgot to reply to your post after reading it.

Thanks for making it, I understand the point you were trying to make a bit better now, and it's certainly given me some food for thought. I am a bit too spent for now to make any effortposts, though, but hopefully we'll be able to continue this discussion at some relevant point later on.


Arab
Sarab
Sarb
Serb


I wish I were joking.
Also, as for your statement, yes.

Ensign Expendable posted:

The Soviets expected a tank column to travel at 10-12 kph tops, with a quota of 60-80 km per day (100-120 km forced march). Like you guessed, you're limited by your supply lines, infantry that has to walk, waiting for reconnaissance, etc. rather than how fast each individual tank can go.

Thalantos posted:

Ima send one just do we got contact, I must have misspelled your name

my dad posted:

Vogon bureaucracy strikes again.

Tevery Best posted:

This really suggests to me we need a historical conspiracy theory thread so that I may share the glory of the Lechite Empire with you guys.

Scrree posted:

At some point a while ago a 1944-era soviet assault troop manual was posted here, and the main takeaway I got from it was 'grenade every building, grenade every floor of every building, grenade every room of every floor of every building - a grenade is far cheaper than your life!' which I think shows a lot about how terrifying and cumbersome city clearing must have been.