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Thalantos posted:No....it still needed to be invented by someone, right? The Germans got to it first, although by the time they did in ww1 they didn't have the resources on a strategic level to really exploit it. Except the Germans didn't really get to it first. Infiltration tactics were developed by the French and all-arms coordination was done first and best by the British.
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# ? Jan 10, 2017 20:20 |
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# ? Jun 8, 2024 07:54 |
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gohuskies posted:Except the Germans didn't really get to it first. Infiltration tactics were developed by the French and all-arms coordination was done first and best by the British. Would you have any resources about this? I know about the brits first doing more combined ops, but I didn't know about the French. Did the Germans just do it better or something? Or is my pop history just that bad, lol? Speaking of, Trin Triangula, I'm sad you stopped updating your blog.
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# ? Jan 10, 2017 20:34 |
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That's what I meant. My memory was that in WW2 there was a realisation that specialised assault groups weren't a thing that was actually necessary, since any well-trained infantry group could do it. I was pretty sure I wasn't making it up, so I checked wikipedia, and it more or less agreed, so I assume it's not a totally stupid thing to have thought. quote:The demands of infantry fighting in the Second World War erased much of the romance of 'shock' troops, particularly when any well-trained infantry was capable of the same tactics, particularly in a formal assault on a well-defended objective
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# ? Jan 10, 2017 20:38 |
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Thalantos posted:Speaking of, Trin Triangula, I'm sad you stopped updating your blog. I bought my father Emilio Lussu and Louis Barthas' books for reading so I could get the rest of their stories. He loved Lussu, and for Barthas his comment was "Nothing exceptional ever happens, but Barthas' french prose is magnificent" (Got it in the original language )
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# ? Jan 10, 2017 20:45 |
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Thalantos posted:Would you have any resources about this? I know about the brits first doing more combined ops, but I didn't know about the French. The aforementioned Battle Tactics of the Western Front is the best history of WWI infantry tactics. It focuses on the British first and foremost but it covers all three. Germans are stereotyped for "storm trooper tactics" because sturmtruppen sounds badass, it fits with the image of stahlhelmed supermen carrying flamethrowers into the enemy trenches, and the Germans did have some offensive success in 1918 (for reasons other than their tactics). Meanwhile the British stereotype is Kitchner's boys slowly marching in line into MG fire at the Somme and the French stereotype is of either charging and dashing elan or mutiny, depending on the year of the war.
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# ? Jan 10, 2017 20:47 |
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spectralent posted:That's what I meant. My memory was that in WW2 there was a realisation that specialised assault groups weren't a thing that was actually necessary, since any well-trained infantry group could do it. Oh yeah, I mean, aren't basic infantry maneuvers at like the company level or lower basically using stormtrooper tactics? Like, yah, having assault troops be elites kinda doesn't work because everyone can use them pretty easily?
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# ? Jan 10, 2017 20:56 |
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gohuskies posted:The aforementioned Battle Tactics of the Western Front is the best history of WWI infantry tactics. It focuses on the British first and foremost but it covers all three. I'll add those to my reading list. That day by day ww1 blog has taught me way more about ww1 than any schooling I've ever had.
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# ? Jan 10, 2017 20:58 |
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I just realized that I forgot to reply to your post after reading it. Thanks for making it, I understand the point you were trying to make a bit better now, and it's certainly given me some food for thought. I am a bit too spent for now to make any effortposts, though, but hopefully we'll be able to continue this discussion at some relevant point later on. Jack2142 posted:What? That sounds incredibly retarded for lack of better word. Arab Sarab Sarb Serb I wish I were joking. Also, as for your statement, yes. my dad fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Jan 10, 2017 |
# ? Jan 10, 2017 21:03 |
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spectralent posted:That's what I meant. My memory was that in WW2 there was a realisation that specialised assault groups weren't a thing that was actually necessary, since any well-trained infantry group could do it. The Soviets trained specialist assault groups in WWII, not for trench fighting, but for city fighting. For some offensives there would even be two types: those trained to fight at night and those trained to fight during the day.
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# ? Jan 10, 2017 21:04 |
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Ensign Expendable posted:The Soviets trained specialist assault groups in WWII, not for trench fighting, but for city fighting. For some offensives there would even be two types: those trained to fight at night and those trained to fight during the day. Wasn't city fighting also why the red army really having battalions with SMGs and body armour?
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# ? Jan 10, 2017 21:17 |
Thalantos posted:Speaking of, Trin Triangula, I'm sad you stopped updating your blog. Speaking of which, time to add to my brand new Kindle!
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# ? Jan 10, 2017 21:17 |
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Thalantos posted:Would you have any resources about this? I know about the brits first doing more combined ops, but I didn't know about the French.
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# ? Jan 10, 2017 21:17 |
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At some point a while ago a 1944-era soviet assault troop manual was posted here, and the main takeaway I got from it was 'grenade every building, grenade every floor of every building, grenade every room of every floor of every building - a grenade is far cheaper than your life!' which I think shows a lot about how terrifying and cumbersome city clearing must have been.
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# ? Jan 10, 2017 21:18 |
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HEY GAL posted:i know him irl and he told me he's trying to get back to it, if he can get away from some other life commitments long enough That's cool, well he has at least one goon who really dug it! Does he need any help doing, like any annoying grunt work on it? I'd be willing to help.
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# ? Jan 10, 2017 21:26 |
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Scrree posted:At some point a while ago a 1944-era soviet assault troop manual was posted here, and the main takeaway I got from it was 'grenade every building, grenade every floor of every building, grenade every room of every floor of every building - a grenade is far cheaper than your life!' which I think shows a lot about how terrifying and cumbersome city clearing must have been. Urban warfare is still cumbersome and terrifying, didn't the Russians basically just shell cities in Chechnya instead of sending troops in? Modern day MOUT is extremely manpower intensive and still really really dangerous.
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# ? Jan 10, 2017 21:28 |
There's a reason it took 4 years and both Russian and Iranian support, plus an encirclement, before Assad took Aleppo.
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# ? Jan 10, 2017 21:32 |
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spectralent posted:That's what I meant. My memory was that in WW2 there was a realisation that specialised assault groups weren't a thing that was actually necessary, since any well-trained infantry group could do it. Ad hoc assault groups were still a thing that was done in WW2, like forming an all submachinegun platoon or company and providing them with a shitload of handgrenades to give maximum firepower to the spearhead. But it happened for different reasons than in WW1, like to destroy small but strong pockets of resistance or to break out of an encirclement so you had a narrow corridor in which to concentrate men.
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# ? Jan 10, 2017 21:33 |
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Thalantos posted:That's cool, well he has at least one goon who really dug it! I volunteered to help and then got a new job and didn't but I'm sure trin would appreciate it! I should really get off my rear end and put some work into it.
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# ? Jan 10, 2017 21:33 |
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If there's anything I've learned from most wargames I've played it's that by far the easiest thing to do with cities is just go around and wait for everyone inside to run out of fuel and hopefully also food. Also how substantial was the difference in strategic mobility between tanks with varying speeds in practise? My model here is the T-26 and BT series, but I was thinking that it's surely limited by the speed you can transport supplies, which presumably limits everyone in most of WW2 to horse or slow truck speeds.
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# ? Jan 10, 2017 21:34 |
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lenoon posted:I volunteered to help and then got a new job and didn't but I'm sure trin would appreciate it! I should really get off my rear end and put some work into it. Well, I'm disabled so I got some time on my hands.
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# ? Jan 10, 2017 21:40 |
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spectralent posted:If there's anything I've learned from most wargames I've played it's that by far the easiest thing to do with cities is just go around and wait for everyone inside to run out of fuel and hopefully also food. When I played advanced tactics, that's pretty much it, I have to surround the city and pound it for a turn our two with artillery and/or air strikes before I send in the infantry from all sides.
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# ? Jan 10, 2017 21:42 |
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Thalantos posted:That's cool, well he has at least one goon who really dug it!
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# ? Jan 10, 2017 21:45 |
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HEY GAL posted:PM him and he'll probably take you up on it Coolio, I sent him a PM.
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# ? Jan 10, 2017 21:58 |
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Scrree posted:At some point a while ago a 1944-era soviet assault troop manual was posted here, and the main takeaway I got from it was 'grenade every building, grenade every floor of every building, grenade every room of every floor of every building - a grenade is far cheaper than your life!' which I think shows a lot about how terrifying and cumbersome city clearing must have been. That was Ensign Expendable, shockingly enough, and the line was "Advance! A submachinegun around your neck, ten grenades at your disposal, courage in your heart, go!" Ensign Expendable posted:
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# ? Jan 10, 2017 22:03 |
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The fact that comic books, nursery rhymes and sausages were used to explain warfare in WW2 never ceases to amaze. I mean, I totally get it, you're more likely to remember a rhyming poem about liquidating someone than you are a dry lecture, it just seems to really exemplify the hosed-upness.
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# ? Jan 10, 2017 22:07 |
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I would be very happy if the Ww1 blog came back, it owned.
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# ? Jan 10, 2017 22:09 |
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spectralent posted:The fact that comic books, nursery rhymes and sausages were used to explain warfare in WW2 never ceases to amaze. Does anyone have some of the 'poems' the USN used to help sailors identify ship silhouettes? They're great.
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# ? Jan 10, 2017 22:37 |
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spectralent posted:If there's anything I've learned from most wargames I've played it's that by far the easiest thing to do with cities is just go around and wait for everyone inside to run out of fuel and hopefully also food. The Soviets expected a tank column to travel at 10-12 kph tops, with a quota of 60-80 km per day (100-120 km forced march). Like you guessed, you're limited by your supply lines, infantry that has to walk, waiting for reconnaissance, etc. rather than how fast each individual tank can go.
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# ? Jan 10, 2017 22:49 |
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Hmm, would you say that the speed of tanks is more about tactical mobility than strategic capabilities?
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# ? Jan 10, 2017 22:57 |
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If there's anyone else out there who wants to do a few hours of work in the next couple of weeks, which you may or may not find interesting, in the name of getting my blog restarted, please do send me a PM.
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# ? Jan 10, 2017 23:04 |
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Trin Tragula posted:If there's anyone else out there who wants to do a few hours of work in the next couple of weeks, which you may or may not find interesting, in the name of getting my blog restarted, please do send me a PM. I sent you one a few minutes ago, did you not get it?
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# ? Jan 10, 2017 23:17 |
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I was meaning anyone other than you, but on closer inspection, yours never got through...
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# ? Jan 10, 2017 23:30 |
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Ima send one just do we got contact, I must have misspelled your name
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# ? Jan 10, 2017 23:33 |
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my dad posted:I just realized that I forgot to reply to your post after reading it. This really suggests to me we need a historical conspiracy theory thread so that I may share the glory of the Lechite Empire with you guys.
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# ? Jan 10, 2017 23:33 |
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Ensign Expendable posted:The Soviets expected a tank column to travel at 10-12 kph tops, with a quota of 60-80 km per day (100-120 km forced march). Like you guessed, you're limited by your supply lines, infantry that has to walk, waiting for reconnaissance, etc. rather than how fast each individual tank can go. Would your tank speed ever matter? Like, was anything fast enough that the response time from recon was soon enough that it'd be faster, or slow enough that getting going from a resupply point would add extra time needed to get to a front line, or whatever? Or is rated speed just basically immaterial for the period?
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# ? Jan 10, 2017 23:36 |
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Thalantos posted:Ima send one just do we got contact, I must have misspelled your name Vogon bureaucracy strikes again.
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# ? Jan 10, 2017 23:46 |
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my dad posted:Vogon bureaucracy strikes again. That or smartphone posting
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# ? Jan 10, 2017 23:47 |
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Tevery Best posted:This really suggests to me we need a historical conspiracy theory thread so that I may share the glory of the Lechite Empire with you guys. I don't think anyone would object to it here. I certainly wouldn't. Or in other words, just post.
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# ? Jan 11, 2017 00:07 |
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Field Marshall Slim addresses this point in his memoirs where he argues that 'specialist' infantry are a terrible idea because it saps talent from the regular infantry for units that you aren't actually going to use all that much because you want to hold them back for their specialist purpose and also it creates a culture where you just assume that regular infantry can't do certain tasks when really they should be able to.
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# ? Jan 11, 2017 00:10 |
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# ? Jun 8, 2024 07:54 |
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Scrree posted:At some point a while ago a 1944-era soviet assault troop manual was posted here, and the main takeaway I got from it was 'grenade every building, grenade every floor of every building, grenade every room of every floor of every building - a grenade is far cheaper than your life!' which I think shows a lot about how terrifying and cumbersome city clearing must have been. When in doubt, grenade it out! Words to
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# ? Jan 11, 2017 00:11 |