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euphronius posted:I dont think Star Wars has ever done a montage. They barely do flash backs. Just another missed opportunity to differentiate the Anthology/Story films from the Episodes.
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Jan 10, 2017 16:08
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Danger posted:The rumor stems from Disney applying for a fuckton of merchandising trademarks with that subtitle in the EU. That could be for any number of things, though. New TV show (since the showrunner of Rebels was just made head of all animation, or something like that, implying something new is coming), or a video game, or something. But it probably is the new movie title. Oh well.
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Jan 10, 2017 16:27
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Danger posted:Forces of Destiny 
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Jan 10, 2017 16:39
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teagone posted:Just another missed opportunity to differentiate the Anthology/Story films from the Episodes. Maybe. The did a lot of new things already. IDK. Montages are kind of extreme. Would there be a up tempo rock soundtrack? Or heartfelt show tune?
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Jan 10, 2017 16:41
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Giacchino would have come up with something suitably mediocre I'm sure. I didn't like the score.
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Jan 10, 2017 16:50
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teagone posted:Giacchino would have come up with something suitably mediocre I'm sure. Yeah, him only having a month definitely showed through.
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Jan 10, 2017 17:11
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thrawn527 posted:That could be for any number of things, though. New TV show (since the showrunner of Rebels was just made head of all animation, or something like that, implying something new is coming), or a video game, or something. MMO? I mean, third time's a charm, right?
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Jan 10, 2017 18:38
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teagone posted:I honestly couldn't get a solid read on Jyn's character, not until after she watches the message from her father on Jeddah. I've mentioned this before, but we're introduced to her under really vague circumstances. Who is she? What is she? What does she want? I don't know how long it takes the movie for her to get the message on Jeddah, but everything prior to that she's just a blank vessel of a character that I wasn't really rooting for or against because the film didn't really give me anything concrete to work with. I think you're the only other person I've heard that also thinks this. Everyone else was saying, "she's wanted by the empire, she wants to stop them", but to me it just sort of sounded like she was a criminal/drifter that had crossed the empire a few times but was not actively fighting it, more just taking care of herself. It wasn't until like 5 minutes before her death that I actually sort of started to root for her and Cpt. Accent. Overall I thought that the movie had really, really weak protagonists (and a messy plot for the first 1/2). Personally every time a rebel died (Except for the droid and imperial defector) I was like, "meh, I don't have to see or hear them any more". They should have gotten rid of 3 of the heroes and fleshed out the remaining ones a little more so that we can actually get a better sense of their motivation and have some actual development so you give a crap about them. Jyn Erso (Felicity Jones): 15 seconds of back story can work, but only if it is well written or revealed gradually and skillfully as the plot progresses. Rogue One did neither and we were left with . . . "she's not very nice?". I think it might have been a better idea to have had her grow up within the Empire as the daughter of a prominent scientist. Have her father reveal the truth (once he knows he has been discovered) and send her off to the rebellion at her current age. Maybe the inner conflict could have been her coming to grips with the truth of the Empire and not being. . . "be a better rebel?". I think the father's death should have happened earlier, and it was the point where Jyn has a change of heart and skip the entire holo-message plot. The mother didn't really add anything, and maybe having her out of the picture altogether could have given us a more "imperial indoctrinated" Jyn as she would have been more indoctrinated since her father was so busy. This could have also given us a few "will she or won't she betray the rebellion" moments throughout the film. Cassian Andor (Diego Luna): His backstory could also be fleshed out a bit more, and I liked the part where he killed his friend to prevent him from being captured. It showed that he was willing to do whatever it takes to help the alliance. Instead of him having to kill Jyn's father, he could have been assigned to kill Jyn should her story prove to be a lie, should she be a double agent, or should she be captured by the Empire. That could have been a better inner conflict for Cassian. Baze Malbus (Wen Jiang): Totally lose him. He added nothing to the story, and was barely even a character. Nobody remembers his character's name and just referred to him as "machine gun guy". Chirrut Îmwe (Donnie Yen): Disney needs to sell tickets in China, so they have to keep him. Have him be less IP man and more Obiwan. The character felt more like comic relief when he was fighting, as it was just silly to watch stormtroopers walking up to him and letting him kill them with a twig. Whenever he talks about the force, everyone else should be looking at him like he's odd, not every rebel chanting it whenever they do something. Saw Gerrera (Forest Whitaker): Totally unnecessary and was almost embarrassing to watch. He added nothing to the story, and could have been written out without any plot issues in less than 3 sentences. Bodhi Rook (Riz Ahmed): One of the few good guys I actually empathized with almost immediately (although it might have been because he was at odds with Forest Whitaker's retarded character at the start). I think he could have been the one to bring Jyn into the rebel fold at the request of her father. The two of them could have been outsiders together as they were both Imperial defectors and not totally trusted. I think he should have had a much larger role throughout, and he and Jyn could have been leaning on each other for support throughout. He could have died due to a botched rebel plan/action, and that could have caused Jyn to further question her involvement in the rebellion. K-2SO (Alan Tudyk): Keep as is. He was well done, not too comical, and not over-used. Director Krennic (Ben Mendelsohn): He was well done, and I think a bit more back story with Jyn and her father would have been better. Have him feel personally betrayed by her father, and a little conflicted in fighting Jan (as he would have known their family her whole life). Throw in the imperial backstabbing and pressure, and you could have had a really good antagonist with some depth and conflict to him. The final scene where he is holding the blaster to Jyn could have been a really good emotional climax, with him and her both feeling conflicted and betrayed, and eventually asserting their paths. The trailer made it look like Jyn was possibly going to be walking between the rebellion and the empire, being seduced by both (black armour at the end of the first trailer and "what will you become"), but we got none of that, and I think it might have been a good plot point to have added. Overall, I think the action was pretty good, and the space battle was amazing!!! But the characters and plot sort of hindered the movie. If they tried to tighten the script a little, get rid of half of the heroes (A bridge too far anyone?), and fleshed them out more, then it would have been a much better experience.
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Jan 10, 2017 19:05
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Blistex posted:I think you're the only other person I've heard that also thinks this. Everyone else was saying, "she's wanted by the empire, she wants to stop them", but to me it just sort of sounded like she was a criminal/drifter that had crossed the empire a few times but was not actively fighting it, more just taking care of herself. This was my read of the character, but a shift occurred after Saw showed her Galen's hologram and her devotion gradually increased until the Scarif battle.
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Jan 10, 2017 20:57
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the first like 10 minutes of the movie were Jyn backstory .... where is this 15 seconds poo poo coming from?
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Jan 10, 2017 20:59
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teagone posted:I honestly couldn't get a solid read on Jyn's character, not until after she watches the message from her father on Jeddah. I've mentioned this before, but we're introduced to her under really vague circumstances. Who is she? What is she? What does she want? I don't know how long it takes the movie for her to get the message on Jeddah, but everything prior to that she's just a blank vessel of a character that I wasn't really rooting for or against because the film didn't really give me anything concrete to work with. She worked with Saw Gerrera for like a decade (from the moment he found her in that hatch until he abandoned her when she was 16 because, according to Gerrera, people in their extremist group were starting to catch on to who she really was). I got the impression that at that point she was so disappointed in Gerrera that she became disillusioned with the whole Empire-Rebel fight and started to look after herself, mostly by taking on contract jobs that required her to commit the crimes they listed (document forgery, resisting arrest, etc.). So over the course of her life she went from innocent kid to extremist to free agent to rebel. I agree that it could have been fleshed out better, but I think they hit the highlights strongly enough (e.g. when she states rather strongly near the beginning that she doesn't give a gently caress) that her motivations were pretty clear. Maybe if an extended edition DVD comes out we'll find out more. But it's not like it matters since she dies in the end. 
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Jan 10, 2017 21:14
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Yea, the entire first act is her emotional arc. Like, it literally begins with her crawling into a hole in the ground when her father leaves and emerging from it following his message at the end of act 1.
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Jan 10, 2017 21:14
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euphronius posted:the first like 10 minutes of the movie were Jyn backstory .... where is this 15 seconds poo poo coming from? That was hyperbole, but a good 3/4 of that 10 minutes were establishing shots and people walking and her family waiting. They could have done a hell of a lot more with that than they did. The throw-away line of, "you worked with Saw Gerrera" didn't do enough (IMO) to make me invest in the character at all. I think they should have gone in a very different direction with her than what they did, but I guess the story is over and done with so meh. Personally, I wanted some characters that actually mattered. The stuff that they did with Rey in TFA was much better, and if I had to guess the length of their backstories came in pretty close if you timed them. The difference was that they actually made you care about Rey, and Jyn was just sort of "meh" to me. Danger posted:Yea, the entire first act is her emotional arc. Like, it literally begins with her crawling into a hole in the ground when her father leaves and emerging from it following his message at the end of act 1. What emotional arc? She's miserable. . . miserable . . . "ok, my dad might be alive, better find out". It wasn't until well past the 1/2 way point that she starts to get a little passionate about things. I didn't pick up on any emotional changes until the hologram, but maybe I'm just  Also I think the whole "Saw Gerrera" plot should have been erased along with the character. It was a total of three throw-away lines and them being in that location could have easily happened without him.
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Jan 10, 2017 21:35
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Blistex posted:That was hyperbole, but a good 3/4 of that 10 minutes were establishing shots and people walking and her family waiting. They could have done a hell of a lot more with that than they did. The throw-away line of, "you worked with Saw Gerrera" didn't do enough (IMO) to make me invest in the character at all. I think they should have gone in a very different direction with her than what they did, but I guess the story is over and done with so meh. Personally, I wanted some characters that actually mattered. The stuff that they did with Rey in TFA was much better, and if I had to guess the length of their backstories came in pretty close if you timed them. The difference was that they actually made you care about Rey, and Jyn was just sort of "meh" to me. I think part of the key is JJ Abrams, he has alot of flaws as a director however one thing he has done well is make you care about characters with limited screen time. With abysmal scriptwriters in the Star Trek reboot he did a good job getting people to like the OT crew again even if you either never really saw the OT (Most people who saw the movie) or only had passing familiarity (Me) and didn't alienate too many fans of the original show (My Dad). Likewise with TFA while the plotline was cribbed wholesale from ANH the characters in the movie were done better, Rey despite being kinda sueish was at least likeable and Finn had an actual character arc and Kylo Ren had an arc too where he comes off as imposing at first, but the facade cracks and falls apart over the course of the movie. Blistex posted:Stuff The thing that baffles me is that most of the people cast in this movie are pretty competent actors, Forest Whitaker has a loving academy award for best actor give him something to do in the plot instead of wheeze. Same goes for Mads Mikkelson you don't need to make them front and center, but you don't need to cast these guys for essentially bit-part roles. Most of the issues with this film I think are editing decisions to keep the plot moving, I really do think there were a decent number of cuts made to get the already somewhat bloated runtime down.
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Jan 10, 2017 22:16
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Saw's differences/disputes with the rest of the rebellion are really the only thing I think needed more backstory. But I guess that's what the Rebels cartoon is for? I haven't seen it.
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Jan 10, 2017 22:37
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FuturePastNow posted:Saw's differences/disputes with the rest of the rebellion are really the only thing I think needed more backstory. I'm not so sure. I think the differences were pretty obvious. Saw was in favor of brutally murdering anyone aiding the Empire. I think that painted him as an extremist by any standard. In contrast, the Rebel Alliance was portrayed as a coalition that would not act unless they had unanimous support of its council members - the very opposite of extremism.
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Jan 10, 2017 23:09
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teagone posted:Giacchino would have come up with something suitably mediocre I'm sure. The really stand-out bad part for me was when Jyn cries over Galen's body and then Cassian says: "Jyn! Look at me!!! ...hissgon." *music swells*
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Jan 10, 2017 23:35
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euphronius posted:the first like 10 minutes of the movie were Jyn backstory It was backstory that serves to establish Galen more than Jyn imo. Most of what happens in the first 10 minutes has little effect on how we directly perceive Jyn's character. We learned her mother died, that her father loves her, and that Saw takes her... but at that point, we don't know who Saw is. Not really much to work with, especially when the film cuts to the older Jyn, now imprisoned. A vague introduction like that leaves several questions about how she turned out. Ok, obvious thing is she's now a criminal, but for doing what? Murder? Or Stealing credits and giving them to poor children? Big difference in how we read and understand her depending on what she did. How long was she with Saw, and again who was Saw? Eventually learning those bits unsatisfyingly has no bearing on her character, other than we're later told she was Saw's best child soldier. Great, she can look cool during fight scenes (she did). Did the death of Jyn's mother ignite the rebellious flame within her? The scene when Chirrut asks Jyn about the kyber crystal her mother gave her could have been a nice moment to reflect on that, but instead Jyn remarks how her father said the crystal is what Jedi used to power their lightsabers. The film would rather namedrop Jedi and lightsabers instead of characterizing Jyn. enraged_camel posted:She worked with Saw Gerrera for like a decade (from the moment he found her in that hatch until he abandoned her when she was 16 because, according to Gerrera, people in their extremist group were starting to catch on to who she really was). I got the impression that at that point she was so disappointed in Gerrera that she became disillusioned with the whole Empire-Rebel fight and started to look after herself, mostly by taking on contract jobs that required her to commit the crimes they listed (document forgery, resisting arrest, etc.). So over the course of her life she went from innocent kid to extremist to free agent to rebel. Yeah, my main issue with Jyn's characterization is she's mostly built using assumed/implied characterization on the audience's part. teagone fucked around with this message at 00:33 on Jan 11, 2017 |
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Jan 10, 2017 23:50
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We get a great shot of tiny kid Jyn looking furiously pissed at Krennic for shooting her mom and abducting her Dad, and then she grows into a mopey woman "that doesnt have the luxury of political opinions" and "doesn't look up" at the Imperial flags. Woulda been better if she was a hardass terrorist paying the empire back for shooting her mom IMO
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Jan 11, 2017 01:47
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The score is dope. But it's better on its own.
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Jan 11, 2017 01:53
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Galen is Jyn's backstory!! Establishing shots impart meaning!! Ah im going crazy I do agree Cassian needed a few more beats.
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Jan 11, 2017 01:55
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euphronius posted:Galen is Jyn's backstory!! Establishing shots impart meaning!! Ah im going crazy When he shot the director I was expecting him to scream, "You raped her, you murdered her. You killed her children".
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Jan 11, 2017 02:42
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Jerkface posted:Woulda been better if she was a hardass terrorist paying the empire back for shooting her mom IMO Yes, yes, yes. Agreed. She should have had a huge hate boner for the Empire for killing her mom and taking her dad away. Maybe she did when she was fighting with Saw. Maybe she was some brash, arrogant, and reckless rebel at some point who took pleasure in blowing up Storm Trooper transports. Reshoots and the editing bay likely watered her down to be more family friendly and empathetic, and she ended up being generic as a result. CelticPredator posted:The score is dope. But it's better on its own. Hmm, that's interesting. Are there any other scores like this where you prefer them on their own instead of hearing them in their respective film? [edit] euphronius posted:Galen is Jyn's backstory!! Establishing shots impart meaning!! Ah im going crazy What establishing shots in the first 10 minutes help build Jyn's character, or at least visually represent something relevant to her? I've only seen the movie once, so I can't really recall anything significant. Only thing I can remember is Krennic landing far away from Galen's farm, but that's only because it was mentioned in the RLM review, hah. Which by the way, because I know a lot of people feel RLM's review is a dogshit... the character criticism is the only thing I agree with them on. Everything else I think they're being too jaded about. The fan service in Rogue One was amazing. teagone fucked around with this message at 03:04 on Jan 11, 2017 |
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Jan 11, 2017 02:51
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teagone posted:What establishing shots in the first 10 minutes help build Jyn's character, or at least visually represent something relevant to her?
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Jan 11, 2017 03:39
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Does anyone remember if those two star destroyers at the end did anything? I don't seem to remember them even firing on the rebels before the both of them got dummied. Then Vader's SD shows up and annihilates the rebels in 10 seconds (I don't think that that's even an exaggeration).
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Jan 11, 2017 04:11
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temple posted:She's cold, she's controlled, she's independent, she doesn't follow authority, she is alone. After trying really hard to remember the opening of film, I suppose the "hiding in the well" scene and her going back to see her mother get killed does impart those qualities onto Jyn's character in the subtext. I'll agree with that, since characterization can be subtle. Still, those are fairly generic traits that don't do anything to inform me of her wants/needs and motivations when we're introduced to her 15-16 years later, which is the larger issue I have with the character. teagone fucked around with this message at 04:30 on Jan 11, 2017 |
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Jan 11, 2017 04:26
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Her being alone is not subtext. The jump cut to her as a Young woman means nothing much has changed. She was in a prison . Cut . She's in a prison. Look I man agree she's not the most robust and rounded character in the history of movies . I'm just saying she was adequately characterized . A montage of her teenage years may have helped but her relationship with saw is explained later . All IMHO of course I saw it once too.
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Jan 11, 2017 04:31
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Characterisationwise Everythings adequate but i do agree it needed some tweaks to be great. I think it needed more time, just a little, with her on yavin at the start, interacting with the rebels to show us some things about her. Why they so don't trust her. Why she doesn't trust them. Stuff. Every character needed one more scene with her beyond that, just to build things up a little. I'd wager given the modern editing process scenes like this exist, and while i know the film is ridiculously busy as is I'd love to see them anyway. 5-10 extra minutes!
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Jan 11, 2017 05:23
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Somebody post a cool spoiler for some Star Wars for gently caress's sake.
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Jan 11, 2017 05:43
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I did, like two pages ago! Nobody bit.  Apparently ol' Rian's had the title on lock since the first draft, though! USA Today posted:Episode VIII already has a title.
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Jan 11, 2017 06:22
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Star Wars Episode VIII: All In Good Time My Friend.
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Jan 11, 2017 06:23
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euphronius posted:Her being alone is not subtext. I was going with the characteristic of her being a loner/lonewolf, not like the actual physical state of being alone haha. The jump cut from her as a child to a grown adult is representative of my biggest issue with the film tough, i.e., the characters aren't given time to breathe and develop meaningful connections with both the other characters in the film and the audience. But yeah, I totally get that people are fine with how the final cut of the film built up the characters, that how it presented them was enough. It wasn't enough or satisfying for me personally. I'm just presenting my own case of why I think the film failed at making the characters interesting instead just saying the characters sucked and were poorly developed, and how the film could maybe have made a couple changes to possibly remedy my own issue with it AndyElusive posted:Somebody post a cool spoiler for some Star Wars for gently caress's sake. Sorry for discussing Star Wars Rogue One, A Star Wars Story
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Jan 11, 2017 07:04
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Blistex posted:Does anyone remember if those two star destroyers at the end did anything? I don't seem to remember them even firing on the rebels before the both of them got dummied. Then Vader's SD shows up and annihilates the rebels in 10 seconds (I don't think that that's even an exaggeration). They got owned by a ship from KOTOR. Jack2142 fucked around with this message at 09:36 on Jan 11, 2017 |
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Jan 11, 2017 09:19
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I feel like since we have no actual spoilers to work with, we may as well go hog wild with purely hypothetical speculation. I was leaning strongly towards Rey having family ties with the Skywalkers, but I've reconsidered for an unlikely reason. Rey having been conceived by the Force like Anakin would give a really solid reason for her abandonment if her family freaked out. Especially if part of that was knowing the last person who was born that way turned out to be Magic Space Hitler. Since last time that happened it was a Sith Lord who engineered it, it could potentially lead to one hell of a terrifying "I am your father" moment. And the implicit conflict with Ren would be delicious. It does open up the possibility of a romance between Rey and Ren. I don't really want to do the shipping thing; its just that the parallel characters are Leia and Amidala, and that opens up both familial and romantic ties as obvious options for a redemptive arc with Ren. Normally I'd consider it risky territory, but if there's anyone who I trust to tell a painful, conflicted love story it's the director of Brick. On the other hand, it might be a bad sign that I'm unsure enough of the characters' ages that I could see her being Ren's daughter as well  e: oh and there's at least one fan theory that Snoke is Vader, based on part by Snoke having a very similar scar to the dying Vader. They've carefully pruned the canon of Dark-side immortality, but a Light Side ghost using the Dark Side to regain physical form is unexplored territory. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 11:58 on Jan 11, 2017 |
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Jan 11, 2017 11:36
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Ren's supposed to be 30ish despite being played by Adam Driver, the world's most petulant teen. I almost want them to go full retard and make Rey artificially created by Palpatine (and make it canon that he did the same thing with Anakin) as a weapon / replacement apprentice, which was why they abandoned her on Jakku. Unfortunately it would make it pretty much impossible to have someone dramatically reveal themselves as her father if they take that route, unless they go even more full retard with her being a clone / reincarnated Anakin, in which case Luke would say "No, Rey, YOU are my father", but that would be idiotic and they would never do that in a million years.
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Jan 11, 2017 11:47
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ungulateman posted:Ren's supposed to be 30ish despite being played by Adam Driver, the world's most petulant teen. I'm not sure if it would be a brilliant set of parallels for Snoke to reveal that he is Vader and her father, "in a manner of speaking," or if I'm just too high to be posting. It roles Palpatine, Obi-wan and Vader into one. e: I had to do an embarrassing amount of math to derive Rey's age as 19 during TFA from Wookiepedia. That would put Ren on the old side of the 30s to be plausible as her dad, but then again "teenage main character learns he was a father and didn't know it" is kind of a big part of Brick so I could see them going with that if Ren is 36 or so. It might work as a romance if Ren is close to 30, since the characters will have time to age into it before it goes anywhere. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 12:07 on Jan 11, 2017 |
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Jan 11, 2017 11:52
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At that point you might as well declare ROTJ non-canon and/or rerelease it but it's just two hours of Vader killing ewoks and Jar Jar Binks. Vader's fall and redemption (and the concurrent rise and fall of the Empire) is kind of the central thesis of the entire hexalogy.
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Jan 11, 2017 12:07
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ungulateman posted:At that point you might as well declare ROTJ non-canon and/or rerelease it but it's just two hours of Vader killing ewoks and Jar Jar Binks. Vader's fall and redemption (and the concurrent rise and fall of the Empire) is kind of the central thesis of the entire hexalogy. Unless Vader's plan is more subtle than "get apprentice, rule galaxy." I mean the possibilities for Vader returned from being one with the Force as a sort of Luciferian character are immense. (e2): Also, Jesus rising from the dead in the flesh is kind of an important part of the whole "being Jesus" thing. Really, you can stop me if I cross the line into weedposting. e: Ren is precisely ten years older than Rey, so that decisively rules out him being her father. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 12:16 on Jan 11, 2017 |
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Jan 11, 2017 12:09
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I think the Vader-as-Messiah interpretation leans really heavily on SMG-style redemptive readings of the movies that are contradictory or at least inconsistent with authorial intent, which makes them extremely interesting but highly unlikely to be followed up in an actual Star Wars film. Like, to the best of my knowledge, Anakin as the Chosen One 'dies' when he becomes Darth Vader and is 'reborn' at the end of ROTJ, and his sacrifice for both his son and the entire galaxy is this weird blend of Father/Son/Holy Ghost and yin/yang. Lucas seems to define that as 'bringing balance to the Force', but then the finale of the Clone Wars suggests Luke might actually be the Chosen One, and he didn't do anything??? And neither of those agree with the idea that the Jedi are a bunch of dipshits and he 'brought balance to the Force' by killing all the Jedi until there were about the same number of Jedi and Sith, which contradicts the Clone Wars finale but agrees with an earlier arc??? And then there's the gigantic mess of whether or not the Dark Side is evil, and prior to TFA, whether there was a 'Light Side' or just 'the Force' (which again, is contradicted by different arcs in the Clone Wars show), and whether the Jedi are wrong (which a later, not-batshit crazy arc based on Ahsoka and the entirety of Rebels seems to be asking). What I'm saying is that Vader is being a fuckin dick if he actually is Snoke and is just leading Ren along like this, which is perfectly in character and I could totally believe it but that would require the movies to admit that from his point of view, the Jedi (and the Republic) are evil, and for that to be either a valid viewpoint or for Vader to have regressed into being Bad For The Sake Of Bad again (in which case go back to my previous point about erasing ROTJ). Weedposting is bestposting - some guy, probably
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Jan 11, 2017 12:43
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I would really like to see an Invisibles-style Gnostic resolution, where both sides are revealed to be working towards the same goal and begin to blend together until they merge at the moment of metaphoric and/or literal ascension. Matrix: Revolutions came close with Smith and Neo merging, but they coped out by making it a trick to kill Smith in exchange for a more multicultural Matrix as part of a power play by the feminine aspect of the Machine God/ess. Neo and Smith merging should have lead to the realization that what they both hate is the Matrix itself, but that together they can smash it and make something worthwhile. It is appropriate in an ironic sense that Neo becomes Christ on a more cosmic level this time but does not rise- and probably wouldn't want to have to own up to his lovely bargain even if he could come back.
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Jan 11, 2017 13:01
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