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Internet Kraken posted:I think poison being so poor later on is an outdated design decision. It used to be that poison trivialized the early game but there is a lot more stuff that resists poison now. Venom mage literally has no way of dealing with rPois enemies so I wouldn't consider it the amazing start its made out to be. I was definitely getting red poisoned in snake
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Jan 11, 2017 03:19
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Floodkiller posted:Bring back Haste as a level 9 poison spell that fatally poisons you when you cast it, and the effect is cancelled early if the poison is cured. You can't use it if you are immune to poison. I've also thought about that a lot, but it needs to be lvl7 Poison/Charms at most so it's possible for medium armor hybrids to cast. Also leaves room for Haste Other as pure Charms at lvl5. Edit: Would need to bring back Cure Poison as a spell so we can have positive effects that end when the poison is cured without needing to rely on potions. Speleothing fucked around with this message at 03:27 on Jan 11, 2017 |
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Jan 11, 2017 03:23
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Darth Windu posted:I was definitely getting red poisoned in snake I think rPois has been nerfed down to 50% resist chance down from like 90% where it was ages ago. It's still necessary and strong, but far from immunity.
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Jan 11, 2017 03:28
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Internet Kraken posted:I think poison being so poor later on is an outdated design decision. It used to be that poison trivialized the early game but there is a lot more stuff that resists poison now. Venom mage literally has no way of dealing with rPois enemies so I wouldn't consider it the amazing start its made out to be. Or gargoyle. Well you said statue i guess.
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Jan 11, 2017 03:32
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Ferrinus posted:I'm guessing it's viable high level poison magic you disagree with, but the truth is that fully or partially irresistible top level spells for schools which initially had to deal with resistant or immune enemies would be par for the course, and there are at least a few blast templates or other delivery gimmicks which haven't yet been explored by the firestorm/glaciate/tornado/shatter/singularity pentafecta. A wave of poisonous liquid that carries enemies with it, poisoning them for each tile they get carried by it. The partially irresistable damage that marks L9 spells is the "being smashed around by a tidal wave" damage.
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Jan 11, 2017 05:54
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While on the subject of Poison Magic, I want to extend my thanks to whichever dev added the Poisonous Vapours spell to the starting book. The utility of it's smite targeting and range allows for it to be used while kiting at early levels when you have no defenses and for managing threats when you get swarmed in halls during the mid-game.
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Jan 11, 2017 08:50
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I'm new to DCSS and just from the perspective of the platonic clueless newbie that I represent making changes that make 'running away' more dangerous seem like pouring slippery gravel on the slope of an already steep mountain to climb.
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Jan 11, 2017 08:58
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orphean posted:I'm new to DCSS and just from the perspective of the platonic clueless newbie that I represent making changes that make 'running away' more dangerous seem like pouring slippery gravel on the slope of an already steep mountain to climb. I've won a fair amount and knowing when and how to run away from fights is an important skill to learn and is also part of the fun, it'd be affected as part of a luring nerf and this doesn't make sense to me either. It feels like removing a puzzle piece from a jigsaw puzzle that's already fitting properly and replacing it with a different shape. Maybe you like the shape better but it won't fit with the rest of the puzzle unless you change all the surrounding pieces! I don't have any idea as to how to make this "luring nerf" into a (what I feel like is) good thing or what other changes would be necessary to make it work. There's already OoD monster spawning to disincentivize degenerate play. The only thing I can think of is to give characters an innate "last resort" tool that allows them to retreat from a fight that incurs a penalty that you can't just rest away like XP or stat drain, but this is only if I believed luring is a problem and I'm not convinced. 
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Jan 11, 2017 12:10
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Darth Windu posted:I was definitely getting red poisoned in snake There is a monster in snake that reduces your poison resistance and also casts the spell that poisons everything in sight every turn. Be careful around naga ritualists, sometimes they can do more than just act as a hub for anacondas. Also you can just get a bunch of unlucky rolls against black mambas.
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Jan 11, 2017 13:13
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Zarick posted:A wave of poisonous liquid that carries enemies with it, poisoning them for each tile they get carried by it. The partially irresistable damage that marks L9 spells is the "being smashed around by a tidal wave" damage. Summon Sewer Smite-targeted. Drops a sewer grate that oozes poisonous water tiles. Can poison, drown, and push back enemies. Also may randomly emit summoned rats.
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Jan 11, 2017 15:18
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Could someone give details of what this anti-luring mechanism currently does, what triggers it, when it wears off, etc? Also, is there an offline tiles version of this branch available? I hate luring something fierce because it's so tedious, but it's one of the main ways to make a fight more managable. There aren't enough consumables for every fight, but luring is (more or less) free. And in the very early game, luring is often the only chance you have. Whatever the solution, it's important that it can detect the difference between : 1) Actual luring, e.g. backing out of a room w/ three Orc priests in, so you can fight them one-by-one as they come around a corner 2) Running away, e.g. a fight with a worm went poorly, and now you need to lose it so you can rest A large part of Crawl's system is that it gives you ways to "redo" a fight - you got some bad rolls and took more damage than usual, but you can escape (through various means, inc. plain old running away), heal and try again. If that rematch becomes tougher because you had to run away, it's not a straight rematch any more but rather a tougher one which you're even less likely to win. And all because you got some bad RNG rolls in the original fight. Basically, Crawl has lots of things to mitigate bad RNG rolls, though they are rationed for balance. If the effects of bad RNG become less easy to mitigate or recover from, then those mitigation options would need to be made more abundant, as a counter-balance. Like apple said above, lots of things would need to be adjusted and rebalanced, not just consumables. Smite ranges too, probably. (I'm sure someone's already suggested this) Maybe it could solved from the other side, by rewarding players who don't lure? More XP, more loot, more piety? A god of bravado? (though Trog and Uskayaw already get partway there)
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Jan 11, 2017 15:43
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FnF posted:Could someone give details of what this anti-luring mechanism currently does, what triggers it, when it wears off, etc? I haven't played it, but: After monsters notice you, and while they're chasing you, they can become empowered. There is apparently a message (the enemy becomes 'bezotted'). Here's the details according to dpeg: dpeg posted:The effect itself is very straightforward, to make coding and testing easy: bonus to movement speed, and various monster numbers increased. NO additional xp, of course, and the effect will not time out. I don't know if the game can tell the difference between actual luring, running away, and simply being unable to catch it (it's a phantom and you're an early game melee guy, for instance, or it's an unseen horror when you can't see invisible yet). Or, in a thing that can happen to anyone, it's just behind a whole bunch of other enemies while you fight in a hallway and it's being buffed while you mow through the chaff. I suspect it cannot. Prism fucked around with this message at 15:51 on Jan 11, 2017 |
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Jan 11, 2017 15:47
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(That was mostly a joke.)
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apple posted:I've won a fair amount and knowing when and how to run away from fights is an important skill to learn and is also part of the fun, it'd be affected as part of a luring nerf and this doesn't make sense to me either. It feels like removing a puzzle piece from a jigsaw puzzle that's already fitting properly and replacing it with a different shape. Looking up the commit it looks like each turn a monster is tracking you there is a turns/turns+500 chance of it getting "bezotted" which increases base damage, EV, AC, and speed all by 2. A more recent commit removed energy randomization which makes sense since this essentially nerfs pillar dancing. So that's one huge plus for the system! I see the possibility of the bezot effect using 120% increase instead but the existing calls are all the base 2. I don't like a % increase because it would make high EV, damage, or AC monsters ridiculous. To balance in mid and late game maybe the increase could be HD or level based instead? Or based on the player's XL? I had bezotting kick in between 40-100 turns. I don't see a "grace period" before bezotting can kick in. I would suggest x_chance_in_y(turns-BEZOTTING_GRACE_PERIOD, turns-BEZOTTING_GRACE_PERIOD + 500) maybe? This would allow "good luring" (pulling with rocks, bringing a monster out of sight/sound of known peers) while still punishing "bad luring" (pillar-dancing, pulling a monster 2 screens JUST IN CASE poo poo GOES DOWN). Also, taking stairs, teleporting, etc do not seem to turn this off. So now if I park an orc warrior because I'm not prepared to handle him, he's permanently roaming the level ten feet tall bulletproof and running 60 miles an hour. If that remains you might as well call this the "Leeroy Jenkins" commit...
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Jan 11, 2017 16:10
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Araganzar posted:Also, taking stairs, teleporting, etc do not seem to turn this off. So now if I park an orc warrior because I'm not prepared to handle him, he's permanently roaming the level ten feet tall bulletproof and running 60 miles an hour. If that remains you might as well call this the "Leeroy Jenkins" commit... I wasn't really liking the idea of this commit before, but this sounds entertaining at least.
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Jan 11, 2017 16:26
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Prism posted details from dpeg I'd missed posted:The effect itself is very straightforward, to make coding and testing easy: bonus to movement speed, and various monster numbers increased. NO additional xp, of course, and the effect will not time out. Thanks! The movement speed bonus is what worries me the most. I could turn a corner and find some OOD monster a two-tile-gap from me; it immediately wakes up and comes closer; I can run to the stairs because there's still one tile between us, but it could get the speed bonus on the way back to the stairs, close the gap and kill me. Or rather, force some consumables, maybe win the fight, but then die later because I've run out of consumables earlier than I should have. All because I had a bad stealth roll. At least energy randomisation meant that, in general, the one-tile-gap would be preserved. Hmm. The "monster is tracking you" part is good - I presume this means that stealth, confusion, hibernation/petrify/paralysis, and distractions (summons, Gozag ability, etc.) are ways to mitigate this mechanic, because they won't be tracking you then? I guess invisibility won't work, because they'd still be trying to get you even though they can't detect you? I agree that a grace period might be nice, and/or having a few "levels" to this bezotted status : if triggered && turns < 100, the monster gains a small bonus; if triggered && turns < 300, monster gains a moderate bonus; if triggered && turns >= 300, monster gets the full bonus.
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Jan 11, 2017 16:53
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Please don't do this to me, don't make mummies even worse. Why does the world conspire against mummies?
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Jan 11, 2017 16:58
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How do you petrify a mummy anyways?
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Jan 11, 2017 17:08
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Give mummies a temporary Mumm-Ra-like transformation ability that can only be recharged by gaining xp.
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Jan 11, 2017 17:16
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Fitzy Fitz posted:Give mummies a temporary Mumm-Ra-like transformation ability that can only be recharged by gaining xp. Your image is about a million times more fun than playing a Mummy in crawl. Regarding the random buffs to enemies when you're "luring": is that in trunk right now? It sounds awful and I need to figure out if I should stop with the daily updates.
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Jan 11, 2017 17:22
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Or a rechargable ability that takes them to a sarcophagus which heals/undoes glow/herpes etc at the cost of massive draining or perma int loss. Get your stargate on.
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Jan 11, 2017 17:24
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Oh poo poo, a unique god or two for mummies. Then I would have an excuse to post apophis-head.gif
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Jan 11, 2017 17:25
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Dpeg, kree!
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Jan 11, 2017 17:26
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FulsomFrank posted:Your image is about a million times more fun than playing a Mummy in crawl. Experimental branch only at the moment.
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Jan 11, 2017 17:28
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E Equals MC Hammer posted:Oh poo poo, a unique god or two for mummies. Then I would have an excuse to post apophis-head.gif Poor devils! After all, they were not evil things of their kind. They were the men of another age and another order of being. Nature had played a hellish jest on them -- as it will on any others that human madness, callousness, or cruelty may hereafter dig up in that hideously dead or sleeping polar waste - and this was their tragic homecoming. They had not been even savages -- for what indeed had they done? That awful awakening in the cold of an unknown epoch -- perhaps an attack by the furry, frantically barking quadrupeds, and a dazed defense against them and the equally frantic white simians with the queer wrappings and paraphernalia ... poor Lake, poor Gedney... and poor Old Ones! Scientists to the last -- what had they done that we would not have done in their place? God, what intelligence and persistence! What a facing of the incredible, just as those carven kinsmen and forbears had faced things only a little less incredible! Radiates, vegetables, monstrosities, star spawn -- whatever they had been, they were men!
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Jan 11, 2017 17:38
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Could've sworn I saw a monster get the bezotted status in trunk before all this talk about it started. It was really briefly and I just kinda shrugged it off as some mechanic I didn't know about. Please don't put this in trunk without telling anyone
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Jan 11, 2017 17:38
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I think you just saw one of the new bedazzled lizards.
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Jan 11, 2017 18:18
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Araganzar posted:I think you just saw one of the new bedazzled lizards. Bedazzled?? The frilled ones (former newts)? Nah I recognize them Also the dart sluts are cool, good idea to have those to introduce people to ranged attacks before a centaur kills them
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Jan 11, 2017 19:10
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Darth Windu posted:Bedazzled?? The frilled ones (former newts)? Nah I recognize them What an unfortunate typo
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Jan 11, 2017 19:15
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Lmao
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Jan 11, 2017 19:18
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Sonja uses needles, not darts
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Jan 11, 2017 21:05
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Crawl .20: Home of the Dart Slut just sayin', that title could get some traffic...
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Jan 11, 2017 22:26
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Araganzar posted:Looking up the commit it looks like each turn a monster is tracking you there is a turns/turns+500 chance of it getting "bezotted" which increases base damage, EV, AC, and speed all by 2. The funny part is that this sounds like it punishes a lot of not-luring and minor luring behaviors more than endvault luring, which I thought was the problem dpeg was trying to 'solve'.
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Jan 12, 2017 00:00
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Is a +2 bonus to AC/EV/damage really that big of a deal? Only thing that sounds scary is movement. I don't think the change warrants any histrionics just yet.
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Jan 12, 2017 00:33
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Sure, but also - why? How is this improving the game? What degenerate player behavior is this supposed to disincentivize? Once that question is answered, you can actually evaluate whether it is doing so effectively without harming other aspects of the game. It's frankly baffling as a player why someone is working on this.
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Jan 12, 2017 00:39
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Which draconian type is best for a melee character do you think. Or rather what is each draconian color suited for?
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Jan 12, 2017 00:41
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Kaedric posted:Is a +2 bonus to AC/EV/damage really that big of a deal? Only thing that sounds scary is movement. I don't think the change warrants any histrionics just yet. a) It's just an experimental, one that will hopefully be dropped like an angry snake b) afaik monsters can be buffed more than once c) Giving bonus speed to an OOD Troll is more than enough reason to freak the gently caress out d) If we're lucky this will be dropped like an angry snake and then pointed at for the rest of time when people ask about luring "fixes"
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Jan 12, 2017 00:41
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Darth Windu posted:Which draconian type is best for a melee character do you think. Or rather what is each draconian color suited for? Yellow is probably best, because that acid bite is real nice. Also spitting to take AC down a notch or two is good. Green ain't bad, either, but poison and mephitic clouds become less useful in the late game. Red is good because you can make a fire cloud on adjacent enemies, but that goes down in utility in the later game.
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Jan 12, 2017 00:42
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I hate wands of confusion because they always get that genesis song stuck in my head and that song sucks.
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Jan 12, 2017 01:20
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Kaedric posted:Is a +2 bonus to AC/EV/damage really that big of a deal? Only thing that sounds scary is movement. I don't think the change warrants any histrionics just yet. A small change the movement speed is enough to get a lot of early game characters killed though. Like, that ogre you ran into early is suddenly a way bigger problem if you can't just walk away from it. But as others have pointed out, the main problem with this 'fix' is that the problem its targeting doesn't exist. Luring as described by this change shouldn't be considered a problem; its a tactic the game teaches you to do right from the start. Otherwise the game is even more slanted towards power combo characters that can reliable kill almost everything they run into in the early game. Those are already the strongest characters and this change won't affect them. Its gonna punish weaker combos that need to rely on strategic retreats early on, which is utterly pointless. Luring could only be considered an issue with the tiny murder holes players dig, but this change does literally nothing to those since they are all about blocking LOS. Its kind of amazing how pointless and bad it is. Darth Windu posted:Which draconian type is best for a melee character do you think. Or rather what is each draconian color suited for? You shouldn't view draconian colour as role defining. Rather, think of it as a bonus you can build your character around later along the line. Its nice to have a colour that perfectly lines up with your chosen role, but the odds of that are super unlikely. The only things you should avoid as a draconian are classes where the -2 apt shifts from certain colours would be a major issue. Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 01:35 on Jan 12, 2017 |
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Jan 12, 2017 01:30
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Darth Windu posted:I hate wands of confusion because they always get that genesis song stuck in my head and that song sucks. Actually both of these things are great.
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Jan 12, 2017 01:32
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