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It's sort of true though besides all that sadbrains bullshit, nothing really matters if the latest predictions on climate change come true. We're talking serious change in our lifetimes, and I don't believe poor first worlders will be protected from that any more than they were protected from any economic force that rules their lives.
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Jan 11, 2017 05:52
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Yeah, all this 'if you are not conscious of racism/sexism in your everday routine, you are a bigot' stuff that the radical activists put out makes people ask 'so I am supposed to feel bad/guilty about what my 'privilege' got me constantly? gently caress that.' All these attempts to shame people just make them mad at the people trying to shame them, since being woke so you can feel bad and guilty is completely unattractive to someone who is uninvolved in activism.
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Jan 11, 2017 05:55
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Pharohman777 posted:Yeah, all this 'if you are not conscious of racism/sexism in your everday routine, you are a bigot' stuff that the radical activists put out makes people ask 'so I am supposed to feel bad/guilty about what my 'privilege' got me constantly? gently caress that.' Yep, those straw activists are running scared! Have you considered that maybe people call you racist and sexist because you're being one? Newsflash: being the target of bigotry isn't fun, and it isn't some sort of video game where you score woke points. These are real people's lives.
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Jan 11, 2017 06:19
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Like oooh! Sorry I feel worse for the black kids getting extrajudicially murdered by cops than some rando bigot's feelings?
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Jan 11, 2017 06:21
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Nobody's asking you to feel otherwise.
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Jan 11, 2017 06:23
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It's kind of ironic to accuse others of strawmanning activists (which is based on actual verifiable accounts - the Washington women's march drama is like exhibit A here), then proceed to strawman your opponents in this thread as all racist sexists.
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Jan 11, 2017 06:27
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rudatron posted:It's kind of ironic to accuse others of strawmanning activists (which is based on actual verifiable accounts - the Washington women's march drama is like exhibit A here), then proceed to strawman your opponents in this thread as all racist sexists. Please don't refer to women disagreeing over complex issues of intersectionality as drama. You're not proving a point when you go "heh, those broads sure are hysterical."
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Jan 11, 2017 06:31
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The exact problem is that 'complex issues of intersectionality' is undermining actual organization efforts and, more likely than not, they're just interpersonal dramas hiding under the veneer of Wokeness. When the vast majority of your energy as an activist is directed inwards, towards shaming your supporters for WokeCred, the model of activism you are using and the philosophy of social change you believe in are fundamentally broken. You can either accept that actions have consequences, and that this may have contributed towards the very recent electoral victory of Trump, or you can live in denial, and watch as the whole world spins out of control.
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Jan 11, 2017 06:35
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rudatron posted:The exact problem is that 'complex issues of intersectionality' is undermining actual organization efforts and, more likely than not, they're just interpersonal dramas hiding under the veneer of Wokeness. Yep you're right, drat those POC women wanting leadership roles, they're undermining the movement!
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Jan 11, 2017 06:37
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I'd be curious to see the details of the subset of specific women who are actually having this debate, as opposed women in general. I wonder what interesting patterns would emerge? I wonder if they're even a representative group! Reminds me of an Orwell quote: "... Hence the fact that in times of stress 'educated' people tend to come to the front; they are no more gifted than the others and their 'education' is generally quite useless in itself, but they are accustomed to a certain amount of deference and consequently have the cheek necessary to a commander.”
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Jan 11, 2017 06:44
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the trump tutelage posted:I'd be curious to see the details of the subset of specific women who are actually having this debate, as opposed women in general. I wonder what interesting patterns would emerge? I wonder if they're even a representative group! Dude what the gently caress are you even talking about? Having a feminist movement with POC women in leadership is not a bad thing. Good lord.
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Jan 11, 2017 06:46
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Are people arguing that left-wing activism (in 2000s America, if you want to be pedantic) has significantly hurt or insulted the working and lower middle class? It's true that occasionally, some racist person gets fired due to outrage. Is that really as prevalent as people being fired, or not hired in the first place, because of prejudice? If you want to blame mainstream classism or the dreaded neoliberalism, that's one thing, but all the examples being paraded in this thread are about causes and events that would never affect the people most angry about them if pundits weren't waving it in their face all the time.
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Jan 11, 2017 06:55
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stone cold posted:Dude what the gently caress are you even talking about? Having a feminist movement with POC women in leadership is not a bad thing. Good lord.
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Jan 11, 2017 07:01
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Anti-intellectualism running rampant "up in this piece," if I have my youth slang correct. Or; "Pfft stupid experts. My gut feelings are better than so-called 'science.' I mean, they call 'em theories for a reason, right?" 
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Jan 11, 2017 07:03
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Adding "Expert" to your Twitter bio doesn't actually make you an expert.
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Jan 11, 2017 07:07
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the trump tutelage posted:No, but derailing a protest aimed at helping women at large so that a vocal minority can have a critical theory slapfight seems counterproductive. Please tell minority women how to be good feminists, white man.
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Jan 11, 2017 07:09
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The many nice "Academics" with doctorates in their fields that people here rail against most certainly are.
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Jan 11, 2017 07:10
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stone cold posted:Please tell minority women how to be good feminists, white man.
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Jan 11, 2017 07:15
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If you're going to frame every example of anti social behavior as The Struggle Against Oppression, then you're condemning movement politics to be overtaken by anti social people. Deflecting criticism of woke activists by using POC as a whole is a kind of disgusting gaming, that you should be ashamed of.
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Jan 11, 2017 07:51
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rudatron posted:If you're going to frame every example of anti social behavior as The Struggle Against Oppression, then you're condemning movement politics to be overtaken by anti social people. Deflecting criticism of woke activists by using POC as a whole is a kind of disgusting gaming, that you should be ashamed of. You should tweet and email every POC woman who is trying to get a leadership position right now in the movement in Washington that they're playing a disgusting game, that sounds helpful af.
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Jan 11, 2017 07:52
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POC feminists aren't a great example because that whole problem has a very long and valid history. It's probably bubbling up now because while it's pretty bad timing for the march, it's the perfect timing to make a fuss. Kinda like air traffic controllers striking during the holidays.
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Jan 11, 2017 08:49
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also stone cold might need to breath a minute and maybe understand their own views and how they are presenting. Edit: this probably makes me somewhat problematic but christ, please try some empathy and understanding.
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Jan 11, 2017 09:49
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rudatron posted:Bringing global warming into this debate seems kind of irrelevant, but it should be noted that the inability of activists to work pragmatically and achieve anything, without tearing each other apart, does stifle any kind of climate activism as well. Atleast said 'rich, coastal elites' actually vote for poo poo like increasing the minimum wage, civil rights and so on to try and make a difference. People in red states seem content as a cucumber to cut the nose off to spite their face.
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Jan 11, 2017 12:11
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rudatron posted:Bringing global warming into this debate seems kind of irrelevant, but it should be noted that the inability of activists to work pragmatically and achieve anything, without tearing each other apart, does stifle any kind of climate activism as well. I disagree on two aspects though. First, climate change having been tangled up in culture war stuff is the reason for why what you describe has happened, isn't it? E.g., see: http://adamcadre.ac/calendar/12/12096.html Second, I don't see the Sufficiently Woke crew ever really talk about, support, or voice belief in the reality of 'slow, grinding, incremental progress'. In fact, in my experience, they really hate the idea that 1. the world is accurately described as slowly becoming better, 2. they don't think it would be a good idea for that to happen either.
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Jan 11, 2017 12:12
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End boss Of SGaG* posted:Are people arguing that left-wing activism (in 2000s America, if you want to be pedantic) has significantly hurt or insulted the working and lower middle class? It's true that occasionally, some racist person gets fired due to outrage. Is that really as prevalent as people being fired, or not hired in the first place, because of prejudice? If you want to blame mainstream classism or the dreaded neoliberalism, that's one thing, but all the examples being paraded in this thread are about causes and events that would never affect the people most angry about them if pundits weren't waving it in their face all the time. I'm the capitalist. I'm threatened by the left. They have 1. a high sense for injustice (in the sense of maltreatment of the weak) and 2. high motivation to do something about it. Sadly, this clashes with my interests, because their suggestion for fixing injustice is to take some of my stuff and use it to do some Michael Jackson, heal-the-world type poo poo! Now we can't go all-out fascism anymore, we can't just disappear these people, but they must be dealt with. My idea is: I will funnel their energy into a highly effortful activity that does not threaten my interest. Great, all the left is doing now is argue about pronouns and how a T-shirt some well-meaning, but socially inept programmer guy wears is literally a sign of a culture of rape. I think I'll even finance science guys to tell these people what they want to hear to make them feel like they're objectively right. And the nice thing is: I, as the capitalist, have suddenly joined the right (i.e., the left) side of history. I'm actually totally cool with respecting trans people and everyone wearing tasteful clothes. Of course I can count on my good friend Koch to finance his side of the war (who're just as enraged as my team is by these issues), so I guess I'll even finance mine a bit, which in the end is a lot cheaper than the left taking my stuff on their terms, and it also helps me sleep at night because I can actually, without conflict of interest, join that team. I'm of course a bit upset Hillary Clinton lost the election, but while I'm truly outraged about Donald Trump being sexist on TV, in the end, I know I'll still be able to send my kids to Harvard, and from my sweet second yacht, I'll text them to stay safe while they're going on all these protests with their wonderfully crazy friends getting their degree in Being Really Woke While Flipping A Burger. Now if this story were true - which it is not - would it be accurate to say left-wing activism has significantly hurt the working class? In sum, the problem is the death of unions. Cingulate fucked around with this message at 12:33 on Jan 11, 2017 |
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Jan 11, 2017 12:27
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Cingulate posted:
Which is caused by globalization. Who will unionize under threat that their job will be shipped overseas at slightest hint of rebellion? When the potential workforce becomes plentiful rather than scare, the unions lost all bargaining power. Which is why it instead focused on keeping their current members benefits and screwing the newly employed, thus leading to young people seeing unions as pointless. Rhetorical question to the thread: Whats worse, a libertarian neocon non-racist or a poverty stricken racist?
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Jan 11, 2017 13:26
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White Rock posted:Which is caused by globalization. Who will unionize under threat that their job will be shipped overseas at slightest hint of rebellion? Now the ship's left the port, and the destination is AI town, robot country, so this is all moot anyways. White Rock posted:Rhetorical question to the thread: Whats worse, a libertarian neocon non-racist or a poverty stricken racist?
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Jan 11, 2017 13:29
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Cingulate posted:Trick question: neither is personally morally responsible, but the existence of the latter corresponds to more suffering (primarily his own). And i would argue the former is responsible for for more suffering, (primarily of others) which is really the core of the divide among "the left".
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Jan 11, 2017 13:45
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Intersectionality doesn't even seem to be the "Left" in practice because unlike Syndicalism or Socialism it is completely unable to unite people in coalition either practically or even in theory. A mass movement based on every category of person, or every individual pushing their own tiny agenda is not going to work. 5 years ago you couldn't get TERFs and Pro-Trans Feminists in the same room. Now you can't even get a Trans coalition with the conflict over Truscum. The endless subdivision caused by intersectionality (in practice!) is directly counterproductive to bringing about any real change.
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Jan 11, 2017 14:16
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And yet legal protection and recognition of trans rights has improved significantly in the last 5 years. The notion that modern activism is fragmentary and discriminatory while also not doing enough to create a broad-based coalition strikes me as a lot of people not understanding how you agitate for change. You can't include everyone, because not everyone agrees with you. In my experience, you reach out to everyone within reason, find political allies wherever you can, but if someone is firm in their belief that your cause is wrong, you don't waste time on trying to convince them. This is in local politics dealing with agricultural and environmental issues, mind you. I never had much interest in student politics and people who constantly worry about the decision making of 18 through 20 year olds are wasting energy or using that as an excuse to be cynical about our society's entire political process. Dreylad fucked around with this message at 14:43 on Jan 11, 2017 |
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Jan 11, 2017 14:41
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Frosted Flake posted:Intersectionality doesn't even seem to be the "Left" in practice because unlike Syndicalism or Socialism it is completely unable to unite people in coalition either practically or even in theory. A mass movement based on every category of person, or every individual pushing their own tiny agenda is not going to work. That's a very good point. We need to build a coalition from the singular centrally shared struggle that manifests in different ways, rather than trying to tie together seemingly random individual problems.
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Jan 11, 2017 14:46
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Higsian posted:So, having defeated the racists in that particular run of battles, you decided it would be a good idea to adopt the tactics they used against you? Framing social pressure as "the same tactics" is disengenuous. The rule was through fear and power. Social pressure was the gloved hand that made it easier for people to just ignore their consciences and stay quiet. Threats of economic isolation, murder and terror were the real "tactics" of the right from 1860-1970's. Social pressure to not marry outside your race, to poo poo on immigrants and fear black folks stopped working, because the majority of people don't believe that anymore. Outside of severely homogenous districts, people interact with "the other" enough to know that they're not a boogeyman. Secondly, fighting racism, homophobia and sexism are not in any way "conservative." At least while equal rights still elude us as a nation.
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Jan 11, 2017 15:58
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Dreylad posted:And yet legal protection and recognition of trans rights has improved significantly in the last 5 years White Rock posted:And i would argue the former is responsible for for more suffering, (primarily of others) which is really the core of the divide among "the left".
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Jan 11, 2017 18:06
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Cingulate posted:Post hoc, the correct step would have been to have unions spring up everywhere, but of course that was impossible because COLD WAR DOMINO EFFECT So the liberal SJW college students that your whole last post blamed hadn't even been born yet before the bipartisan worker crushing began? But it's all up to them to find the new solution? Here's an alternate conspiracy theory. These arguments are a bunch of puzzle pieces that blame the apathetic left for abandoning real issues. But when you put them together, you get a caricature of the working class as if drawn by an arrogant liberal: they're stagnant and hopeless without the guiding hand of pure leftists. Whenever they face real or imagined hardship, anyone can distract them with whatever insane idea they want, until eventually they get violent. It's the eternal burden of the enlightened left to fix their problems. The premise of there being a discussion here is a trick. Anyone who sees the stereotype and agrees is a shithead paternalist. If they agree with certain issues and suggest reform and cooperation, they're a useless incrementalist. And if they reject the picture as a gross distortion or fight against insane demands, they're a self-righteous classist. It's all just for gotcha-ing liberals and fantasizing that those dumb kids are gonna get thrown out on the street someday, because anyone who's actually to blame won't take you seriously. But nobody would ever use false outrage for scoring internet burns.
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Jan 11, 2017 18:10
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End boss Of SGaG* posted:So the liberal SJW college students that your whole last post blamed hadn't even been born yet before the bipartisan worker crushing began? But it's all up to them to find the new solution? End boss Of SGaG* posted:Here's an alternate conspiracy theory. These arguments are a bunch of puzzle pieces that blame the apathetic left for abandoning real issues. But when you put them together, you get a caricature of the working class as if drawn by an arrogant liberal: they're stagnant and hopeless without the guiding hand of pure leftists. Whenever they face real or imagined hardship, anyone can distract them with whatever insane idea they want, until eventually they get violent. It's the eternal burden of the enlightened left to fix their problems. The premise of there being a discussion here is a trick. Anyone who sees the stereotype and agrees is a shithead paternalist. If they agree with certain issues and suggest reform and cooperation, they're a useless incrementalist. And if they reject the picture as a gross distortion or fight against insane demands, they're a self-righteous classist. It's all just for gotcha-ing liberals and fantasizing that those dumb kids are gonna get thrown out on the street someday, because anyone who's actually to blame won't take you seriously. But nobody would ever use false outrage for scoring internet burns.
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Jan 11, 2017 18:15
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Of course the Left is still calling for legal enforcement of tumblr pronouns instead of worker's rights. The fight may have began before they were born but they have an opportunity to join it, and they are focussing on issues that only stroke their individual egos or match some identity they assign themselves.
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Jan 11, 2017 18:19
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I think worrying about who's to blame in the sense that anybody's ego can end up bruised is bad. People who feel attacked inevitably get defensive, and then everyone is just fighting. Is "the left" to blame? Well, in the sense that it didn't save the world, yes. In the sense that it could have saved the world, no. But still, causes must be discussed, and self criticism and introspection must happen.
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Jan 11, 2017 18:22
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Cingulate posted:I certainly didn't mean to imply any of this. The discussion about how people with different social and economic issues can possibly relate to or support each other. Often the only advice that social activists get is to put aside their causes indefinitely for the sake of workers. I'll just ask flatly, what pro-worker policies can people support right now and possibly convince or force organizations to adopt? Also, look at Frosted Flake pretending that insular online communities that nobody was talking about are the same as real life weirdos and governments spending a lot of time and effort trying to police bathrooms.
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Jan 11, 2017 18:42
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End boss Of SGaG* posted:The discussion about how people with different social and economic issues can possibly relate to or support each other. Often the only advice that social activists get is to put aside their causes indefinitely for the sake of workers. I'll just ask flatly, what pro-worker policies can people support right now and possibly convince or force organizations to adopt? So it seems to me, if you engage in those issues, adding more fuel to that incredibly unimportant fire, you're actually making things worse, even if you're coming from the right side. End boss Of SGaG* posted:Also, look at Frosted Flake pretending that insular online communities that nobody was talking about are the same as real life weirdos and governments spending a lot of time and effort trying to police bathrooms.
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Jan 11, 2017 18:53
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Cingulate posted:Essentially none, and that is the problem. Well, none or Trump, depending on if you buy my union interpretation. It's all (almost all) identity and culture issues. So if labor activism can't accomplish anything, and social activism is irrelevant, what then? Do you protest labor abuses and try to organize unions anyway and hope people help or politicians change their minds? Do you boost progressive politicians and hope they can get elected and aren't ignored or crushed? Or is it literally just waiting for a gamble that Trump can gently caress up his party and if not, oh well?
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Jan 11, 2017 19:04
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