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Koalas March posted:Please explain "blacking up" to me. At first I thought you meant like blackface but you said someone was doing it on the radio. Also the term is just awful, lol. Yeah, sorry. That's exactly what it is, the host was describing the morris dancer applying the paint. Apologies for the term, that's what it tends to be called over here.
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Jan 11, 2017 13:48
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Praseodymi posted:Yeah, sorry. That's exactly what it is, the host was describing the morris dancer applying the paint. Apologies for the term, that's what it tends to be called over here. are you in Cornwall?
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Jan 11, 2017 13:51
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JFairfax posted:are you in Cornwall? Nope, nearer Leeds. I don't think the term just a cornwall thing. Just heard Jeremy Vine use it on Radio 2.
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Jan 11, 2017 13:52
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Praseodymi posted:Nope, nearer Leeds. I don't think the term just a cornwall thing. I don't mean the term, I mean Morris Dancers in blackface, I had no idea it was even a thing until there was a report on some morris dancers in cornwall doing it
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Jan 11, 2017 14:18
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It's definitely more of a Cornish thing, but there's even a pub a few minutes away from here called "The Morris Dancers". It's such a ridiculous thing. Like I've had people go off on one about "But All Lives Matter!" or "But black people can say it" who think blackface is racist.
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Jan 11, 2017 14:32
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A big flaming stink posted:I recall sedanchair got accused of being not black because his hand was light-skinned in a picture Near the end of his short-lived stint as an IK, Zoux demanded something similar from posters in CSPAM, while he was in the middle of the hilarious meltdown for which we finally got rid of him.
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Jan 11, 2017 14:38
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Since it's in response to earlier posts in this thread on the same topic I'm putting this here, but I can move it to QCS if necessary.Darth Walrus posted:It's bad because he's a gimmickposter, and that's the opening stage of his MO - drop into a conversation about bigotry, and then use a storm of pedantry and misrepresentation to argue that the bigotry being discussed does not exist, and the people talking about it are the real bigots. He and a certain UKMT poster, Pissflaps, are a sort of troll that the SA moderation system, with its focus on individual bad posts, are poorly equipped to handle - they're reasonably civil and rarely engage in obvious bigotry, but they will do their level best to drown out any sort of productive conversation in a wave of tedious, empty, circular bullshit. It's why he's been booted out of the Israel/Palestine threads, among others. LeftistMuslimObama posted:It's because TIC's modus operandi is to establish a "pretending to be reasonable" foothold and then blowing up with terrible posts before mods can react. He was told not to post in the thread at all and he ignored that. I will humbly suggest D&D would be less of a septic tank if more posters were "reasonably civil and rarely engage in obvious bigotry" and are "pretending to be reasonable". Yes, even if it means my evil plot to have threads filled with posts that are "reasonably civil" and don't "engage in obvious bigotry" succeed. Gonna go a little further and suggest that the problem with these threads is the instant dogpiling and shitposting that is the response of a lot of the regulars when anyone expresses a vaguely different opinion, and not that people might be able to calmly discuss their disagreements. Perhaps there is a more appropriate subforum for that. Koalas March posted:Get the gently caress out. Mental health is already stigmatized especially in the black community. Donda straight up said he had BPD. He has rapped about his mental health issues for years. poo poo has been leaking from his hospital so much that they had to send put Emergency emails about HIPPA guidelines. shrike82 posted:tbf everytime someone cancels a tour for one reason or another, they check themselves into treatment so who knows whether he's just pretending Was the tail end of a lot of shitposting in response to this: Neurolimal posted:They aren't going to be shamed into voting. On the flipside it's hilariously easy to bring them back into the fold without stepping on anyones toes. Koalas March posted:You are not welcome or wanted here. Remove yourself. The Kingfish posted:He was supporting conspiracy theories about SA's CC information being unsafe. It isn't surprising in the least that he got banned. Koalas March posted:Ok, it's time. Dog Jones posted:Actually before you get too pissed off at me, could you tell me more about what you mentioned before re: tracing your family history. Are you working on a book or something? That sounds cool Now, I am not rendering any judgement as to whether or not those are appropriate or constructive responses, I simply felt I should lay out a few examples of what goes on fairly regularly in threads like these and let observers choose where they think the problem is.
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Jan 11, 2017 14:49
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The Insect Court posted:Since it's in response to earlier posts in this thread on the same topic I'm putting this here, but I can move it to QCS if necessary. You should do that as there's already way too much meta posting derailing the purpose of this thread.
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Jan 11, 2017 14:54
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Also this thread isn't about relitigating the Election. Thats why we are telling people to get the gently caress out. Go post in the specific threads for that poo poo.
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Jan 11, 2017 15:02
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The Insect Court posted:Since it's in response to earlier posts in this thread on the same topic I'm putting this here, but I can move it to QCS if necessary. I love that you're posting random quotes, completely without the context of the cluster fucks of conversations that were happening at that time. I don't just tell posters to get out for asking questions. I tell them to leave because they're ignoring our answers, being willfully dense, being low key racist or looking to excuse their racism or bias. Hey guess what. If the black posters don't want you here, if they feel uncomfortable with your posting, you are not allowed to post here. That's a rule for here and misogynoir. If you don't like it, go to qcs. But don't come back here or I'll probate you. You can't sit with us. Koalas March fucked around with this message at 15:07 on Jan 11, 2017 |
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Jan 11, 2017 15:04
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TIC, there's a reason you get probated all the time in D&D. It's not because you're The Most Reasonable Poster.
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Jan 11, 2017 15:11
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Funny enough darkening the face in Morris dancing predates minstrel shows and had no racial connotations. Normal people would still drop it because of the implications. Instead they like to pretend that Britain wasn't way into minstrel shows well into the modern age, and therefore it's not bad like it is in the US.
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Jan 11, 2017 15:21
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Blackface is an extremely bad look and I can't really think of context in which it wouldn't be. Britain may not have invented minstrel shows but they were wildly popular there. Also lookup Golly Dolls (I can't think of a less bad thing to call it) and their popularity in Europe.
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Jan 11, 2017 15:25
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You look silly enough as a morris dancer without putting blackface on to further out yourself as a person who likes making bad decisions. Also yeah Cornish people are weird because I've never heard of anyone doing it otherwise.
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Jan 11, 2017 15:29
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AggressivelyStupid posted:Blackface is an extremely bad look and I can't really think of context in which it wouldn't be. Oh I know. I just point that out because it's the big argument for why it should be o.k. and one that's easily dismantled by pointing out that the context has changed significantly since pagan times. No one does the Roman salute anymore either, even though it didn't start as a symbol of fascism.
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Jan 11, 2017 15:33
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there wolf posted:Oh I know. I just point that out because it's the big argument for why it should be o.k. and one that's easily dismantled by pointing out that the context has changed significantly since pagan times. No one does the Roman salute anymore either, even though it didn't start as a symbol of fascism. I suppose in defence of Cornwall it's a bit isolated down there and they may only have seen a black person in woodcuts and may not not be aware of the events of the previous several centuries.
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Jan 11, 2017 15:36
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there wolf posted:Do you actually think that cracker is as bad as the n-word? I think part of this is about the subjective(and occasionally elective) nature of "offensiveness" versus the principle of "racial pejoratives are a bad thing", i.e. is the act of making a negative point of the target's race/ethnicity, whether to serve as disparagement in itself or to simply overtly otherise them, deplorable in all arrangements of ethnic groups? With another part being how much of the perceived offensiveness is weighted by the scope of awareness of the breadth and depth of whatever history of relevant racism exists. From what I've noticed, for non-white people it not only leans near exclusively on the latter, but attitudes about it can be pretty myopically about racist comments from only white people, to the extent that obvious inter-ethnic-minority racism is handwaved off as totally not racism at all because of there being no white perpetrator or because of the idea that non-whites can't be racist. And that racism in which "whites"(a weirdly ever expanding label) are the target is either the imagined sleight of non-existant "reverse-racism" or that it can't really be racism because p+p=r. "friend of the family" is certainly the more offensive term and definitely not on part with "cracker" by any stretch of the imagination, but "cracker" being racist is going to vary from person to person, which with the historical racism weighting factor making it also so laughably trivially offensive that most people aren't going to treat it as racism, and almost nobody will call it such unless pressed to consider the "racial pejoratives are bad" thing. Koalas March posted:Please explain "blacking up" to me. At first I thought you meant like blackface but you said someone was doing it on the radio. Also the term is just awful, lol. aherdofpenguins posted:So according to a friend on facebook and some articles I've read, the new definition of racism/sexism/whateverism requires both prejudice and power for it to be considered as such. Does that mean racism no longer happens on a personal level? If some black guy can't get a loan, and the reason turns out to be his name is a bit too black sounding, that's obviously racism. But if I call some dude the n word, is that racism? If a black dude calls me a cracker, is that racism? The new definitions of sexism and racism are garbage borderline revisionist redefinitions where what were not popular ideas are now being taken as gospel because it's convenient and fits/furthers a narrative about things that makes it easier to justify behaviour that frankly seems obviously otherising and racist. The entire "power + prejudice = racism" thing's most sensible incarnation was someone talking about how black people couldn't be racist in the same way as white people because they didn't have the political power to weaponise the law against whites in the same way that whites could and repeatedly did to blacks. The big thing you seem to be confused about, whether interpersonal racism really counts as racism depending on who's ethnic group is perceived to have more power, is pretty much a huge steaming pile of bullshit. For the most part I answered the "is that racism" thing, but another part isn't the offensiveness perceived by the target, but also the offensiveness as perceived by the "aggressor"(seems like maybe too strong a word in this case?). As "there wolf" was sort of getting at, above, and with the context of my reply, you can't reasonably expect someone to take much offence to the reference of something that hasn't been held over them in the same way that the same thing has been held over other people, and with the way people weight these things cracker carries so little weight that it's basically not considered a sincere expression of racism by anyone and is pretty much interchangeable with any other generic light-insult(rear end in a top hat). As for the "privilege" thing, what you should be aware of is that "privilege" mostly only made sense in the context of talking about broad trends as a part of sociological discussion, talking about relative advantages and perceived disparities between demographics, an example in keeping with a relevant thread-topic being the issue of unfavourable outcomes in the justice system for ethnic minorities, where you would say that other groups are more privileged by virtue of those more favourable outcomes(where favourable = less punishment, unfavourable = more). There's also the issue of true institutional racism(whereby there is deliberate action for/against groups) versus a representative bias, where that bias is a trend of deviation from 1:1 representation, and the trend to consider the latter along with the former when such biases are identified. Basically this sort of talk has generally been warped into discounting people's experiences, opinions, and input on subjects because they're part of a demographic which is too high up the social totempole, it's a huge disingenuous oversimplification that goes well beyond a basic principle like being aware that different groups of people tend to have a different trend of experiences. tl:dr As a matter of technicality yes you're both being racist but perpetrators and victims both will consider "cracker" a trivial insult on par with being called a "butt" OwlFancier posted:You look silly enough as a morris dancer without putting blackface on to further out yourself as a person who likes making bad decisions. I think there are similar Scandinavian customs where they have silly dances and black up, they've also been accused of minstrelsy over the years and really the whole blackface thing should really be shelved because regardless of whatever supposed origin it has nobody is going to be able to look past the memory of caricaturing black people, in much the same way that nobody in Europe is going to defend the use of swastikas on the basis of their use as a traditional good luck symbol. Also sorry about the wall of text. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 11, 2017 15:40
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there wolf posted:Funny enough darkening the face in Morris dancing predates minstrel shows and had no racial connotations. Normal people would still drop it because of the implications. Instead they like to pretend that Britain wasn't way into minstrel shows well into the modern age, and therefore it's not bad like it is in the US. 'No racial connotations' is an overstatement - there's a lot of dispute about the origins of Morris dancing, but the most popular theory is that the name derives from 'Moorish', and the dance and clothing were inspired by North African forms. That would place it as part of a group of 'moresca' dances that were wildly popular in the fifteenth century across Europe. The blackface was an attempt to capture the full exotic, fashionable Moorish aesthetic, and oscillated between being a token of sincere admiration ('these people are way cooler than us, we should be like them') and mocking, hostile caricature. Of course, we all know which way the pendulum ended up swinging, which is why it's such a charged, uncomfortable subject these days. There's also the argument that Morris dancers blacken their skin to simulate coal-dust, emphasising the dance's romanticised working-class roots, but that doesn't fit with the obviously African-inspired clothing that the blackface troupes tend to don - for the record, the ones who don't use blackface tend to wear stylised, archaic British leisure clothing instead. Darth Walrus fucked around with this message at 15:44 on Jan 11, 2017 |
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Jan 11, 2017 15:42
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I don't know why its so terribly hard to not do blackface (or blackened face for those tiptoeing around the issue) with customs such as Morris dance and black Peter? Acknowledge the past, acknowledge issues surrounding it, don't cover it up, adapt to the times.
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Jan 11, 2017 15:51
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Don't you get it? This is our ancient British culture that is under attack. Eugh, white people are poo poo.
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Jan 11, 2017 15:54
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teen witch posted:I don't know why its so terribly hard to not do blackface (or blackened face for those tiptoeing around the issue) with customs such as Morris dance and black Peter? Acknowledge the past, acknowledge issues surrounding it, don't cover it up, adapt to the times. 
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Jan 11, 2017 15:55
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Praseodymi posted:Don't you get it? This is our ancient British culture that is under attack.
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Jan 11, 2017 15:57
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For something viscerally horrendous like that, nah, put chocolate into a different mold. Or: more scenes like this. Make white people feel incredibly uncomfortable 2k17.
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Jan 11, 2017 16:00
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FactsAreUseless posted:It's honestly a pretty easy attitude to understand, especially in an area like this. You're talking about a rural population in England with a tradition going back hundreds of years, and they're being told that it's wrong due to historical and cultural contexts largely based in another country and originating in practices under two centuries old - the minstrel show as we know it comes from the late 1800s (as I understand it, correct me if it's older). That doesn't make it right: blackface is offensive in any context, it's blackface. But you can get why it's hard to convince a group like this, and why it might be a bit more complex than simple white privilege. Oh, of course. I mean more in terms of the "British Culture" that people bring up as something that needs protecting is always poo poo stuff. It's like, black people have trouble getting jobs and housing because of something they can't control. What do white people face? Someone said my old dance was racist! It's not even under attack! The one's in Birmingham have had MPs come out in their defence and the police are investigating the people that heckled them.
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Jan 11, 2017 16:04
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Lowtax posted:Anybody using the word niggers should be banned, no questions asked. Please show me any examples of it and I will personally ban them. Lowtax, seriously, you have used that word on these here forums. After a goonmeet (It was in Feb. 2013, in San Diego, I believe), you posted jokingly to another user something to the effect of "I hate niggers like you!" It was a couple or few years ago. I don't think the poster you were referring to was black,nor do I think you had any racist intent. But you posted it. I distinctly remember seeing it, and sharing it with people. I'm trying to find it now. I remember it well, it was quoted extensively on offsites (I know I posted it) as an example of moderator hypocrisy. I don't bring this up to be combative, or a wise-rear end. And maybe you just mean within the context of this thread/subforum or whatever. All I'm saying is, I've seen you call people "niggers" on the SA forums as a joke. I found it quoted on SS, from Feb. 2013: "gently caress you, I just hate those goddamn niggers like you!!!" You posted that at someone who was also at the goonmeet. I don't have a link to the actual post itself, and your post history in search doesn't go back that far. I think I have archives, but gently caress if I've ever bothered trying to use them. If you really want me to dig for it, I can. I'm sure you could find it a lot easier than me. My point is, there was a time, not too long ago, when you thought it was funny to say some poo poo like that. Edit: found on this page: https://archives.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3529910&userid=27691 Sex Cop fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Jan 11, 2017 |
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Jan 11, 2017 16:05
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Praseodymi posted:It's not even under attack! The one's in Birmingham have had MPs come out in their defence and the police are investigating the people that heckled them. Wait, is this over heckling? Over being made fun of? Christ.
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Jan 11, 2017 16:06
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teen witch posted:Wait, is this over heckling? Over being made fun of? Apparently, some people also tried to knock their hats off.
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Jan 11, 2017 16:08
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To be fair those are just chocolate versions of what is normally a pastry/biscuit, it's a thing related to a town's folklore about people having hands chopped off or something.  teen witch posted:I don't know why its so terribly hard to not do blackface (or blackened face for those tiptoeing around the issue) with customs such as Morris dance and black Peter? Acknowledge the past, acknowledge issues surrounding it, don't cover it up, adapt to the times. The "acknowledge the past" thing is where it gets murky, people can totally see the points about the closeness to minstrelsy, but a lot of these traditions have mixed or mystery origins, and so you can get these traditions that at best are "incidentally racist" by virtue of their similarity to obviously racist things, but because the people who carry on the traditions aren't actually racist themselves they're keen to not just defend the traditions as not having any kind of racist connotation but to also defend themselves against implication that they're racist for carrying on these traditions.
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Jan 11, 2017 16:14
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lohli posted:To be fair those are just chocolate versions of what is normally a pastry/biscuit, it's a thing related to a town's folklore about people having hands chopped off or something. Um, yeah. The reason it's pretty bad is because of hands (and other mutilations) being chopped off in the Belgian Congo on the rubber plantations.
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Jan 11, 2017 16:18
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Ironically, these refer to the founding legend of the city of Antwerp, where Roman soldier Silvius Brabo killed the giant Druon Antigoon and threw his hand into the river Scheldt. Which would be where, according to folklore, the name Antwerp came from: hand werpen, hand meaning hand and werping meaning throwing. But let that be a lesson to all colonising nations: if you'd wanted to keep your stupid folklore, you should've thought of that before mutilating and genociding Africans. Because there's no way anyone's going to look at those chopped off chocolate hands and not go 'hmm, bit messed this' e: fb
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Jan 11, 2017 16:21
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Darth Walrus posted:'No racial connotations' is an overstatement - there's a lot of dispute about the origins of Morris dancing, but the most popular theory is that the name derives from 'Moorish', and the dance and clothing were inspired by North African forms. That would place it as part of a group of 'moresca' dances that were wildly popular in the fifteenth century across Europe. The blackface was an attempt to capture the full exotic, fashionable Moorish aesthetic, and oscillated between being a token of sincere admiration ('these people are way cooler than us, we should be like them') and mocking, hostile caricature. Of course, we all know which way the pendulum ended up swinging, which is why it's such a charged, uncomfortable subject these days. There's also the argument that Morris dancers blacken their skin to simulate coal-dust, emphasising the dance's romanticised working-class roots, but that doesn't fit with the obviously African-inspired clothing that the blackface troupes tend to don - for the record, the ones who don't use blackface tend to wear stylised, archaic British leisure clothing instead. I'll defer to your info dump. I've only ever heard the old pagan tradition line, which doesn't hold much water even if it's true.
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Jan 11, 2017 16:27
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R. Mute posted:But let that be a lesson to all colonising nations: if you'd wanted to keep your stupid folklore, you should've thought of that before mutilating and genociding Africans. Because there's no way anyone's going to look at those chopped off chocolate hands and not go 'hmm, bit messed this' Yeah, same with the Morrismen "blacking up". It may well be an ancient tradition with nothing to do with racist caricatures of black people (Ha! My loving arse, it is), but you're fighting one hell of an uphill battle where you really need to ask yourself, "Should I really be making this my hill to die on?" Belgium did such loving horrendous things in the Congo, turning an entire country into a concentration camp of torture and death. I feel at that point, having hand-shaped chocolate treats might just be a tad insensitive no matter where their origin.  Father stares at the hand and foot of his five-year-old, severed as a punishment for failing to make the daily rubber quota, Belgian Congo, 1904 EDIT: \/\/\/ No, Pete was totally his helper. And definitely not his dimwtted slave, there to be comically stupid for everyone to laugh at. Megillah Gorilla fucked around with this message at 16:32 on Jan 11, 2017 |
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Jan 11, 2017 16:28
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I feel like people who vehemently defend these things on the internet. While themselves possessing no connection to the locations or traditions. Are probably doing it for the wrong reasons. Black Pete being a very good example
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Jan 11, 2017 16:29
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The thing is, it's not a hill to die on. The chopped off hand chocolates aren't even on the table yet as 'not okay' - we're still struggling with Zwarte Piet (which doesn't have the benefit of only being accidentally racist) and having dozens of statues of Leopold II littered around the country.
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Jan 11, 2017 16:31
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Sex Cop posted:Lowtax, seriously, you have used that word on these here forums. After a goonmeet (It was in Feb. 2013, in San Diego, I believe), you posted jokingly to another user something to the effect of "I hate niggers like you!" It was a couple or few years ago. I don't think the poster you were referring to was black,nor do I think you had any racist intent. But you posted it. I distinctly remember seeing it, and sharing it with people. I'm trying to find it now. I remember it well, it was quoted extensively on offsites (I know I posted it) as an example of moderator hypocrisy. That's a hosed up thing to do but it looks he (rightly) changed his position which is a good thing™. He said that in the past, but we know where stands now. I can see this heading in a ugly derail, and I don't want to turn negrotown into a Lowtax call out thread.
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Jan 11, 2017 16:47
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Koalas March posted:That's a hosed up thing to do but it looks he (rightly) changed his position which is a good thing™. He said that in the past, we know where stands now. Me either, not at all what I am trying to do.
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Jan 11, 2017 16:48
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drat, the heart of SA is really being fought over tooth and nail this week, isn't it?
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Jan 11, 2017 16:52
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Sex Cop posted:Me either, not at all what I am trying to do. Well whatever you are trying to do, please take it elsewhere. 
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Jan 11, 2017 16:54
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Psycho Society posted:drat, the heart of SA is really being fought over tooth and nail this week, isn't it?
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Jan 11, 2017 16:59
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Koalas March posted:Well whatever you are trying to do, please take it elsewhere. Hey, first time poster here. Here is a wall of text about some imported drama, is this what Negrotown is for?
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Jan 11, 2017 17:02
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