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And he gets his friends to kill the guy he owes money to (who also kidnapped him). Who said that awful opinion?
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Jan 12, 2017 08:59
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cargohills posted:And he gets his friends to kill the guy he owes money to (who also kidnapped him). Who said that awful opinion? That would be tech Dracula and professional punitive litigation funder Peter Thiel, one of the most powerful men in America, in an expansive interview with the New York Times in which he says doing crime is good because you might otherwise get bored. It's a hell of a piece of work, and so is he.
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Jan 12, 2017 10:07
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Phi230 posted:I'm reminded of an "experiment" done on East African children where they were given Android tablets. They had no previous encounter with "modern tech" and they hacked the OS and were writing apps for them within 30 days I see the publicity campaign for my new sweatshop is working.
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Jan 12, 2017 11:18
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I figured out where half the good talk in the thread is coming from: "Myth, Media, and Culture in Star Wars: An Anthology" https://books.google.nl/books?id=7i...wars%22&f=false Now you too can ape views from this book and be a proper intellectual !  It looks like a good read but pretty expensive: in Euros 65 or 55 depending on where and ebook or not, in my country at least. SMG I love your read but if we take what Zizek says + the medium is the message + Your claim that SW is secretely subversive, is Star Wars then not the embodiment of the liberal communist? First through George Lucas and now Disney who both engage in philantropism. The difference being with Zizek's Starbucks example that Starbucks hammers on its ecological message to make you feel good about buying and SW (as presented, without GL or Disney) doesn't really have that pretense. --edit-- Well you could argue Disney's is "diversity" and who can disagree with that? Which makes Zizek's point wrt Starbucks. Star Wars is endlessly exploited through tie-in media, toys, more films now etc. etc. "the medium is the message" ... buy, buy, buy. Nielsen fucked around with this message at 14:41 on Jan 12, 2017 |
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Jan 12, 2017 13:52
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The Golden Gael posted:I remember an old documentary about the making of Star Wars that noted most of the films of the 70s were pretty downbeat and cynical, reflecting a lack of trust in American leadership at the time. Movies like Chinatown weren't exactly inspiring. Part of what made Star Wars take off was that it was genuine good fun with a happy ending, which stood in sharp contrast to the gritty realism of popular pictures in the day. Yeah, a common theme of movies at the time was, "If you fight the powers that be, you will lose, badly." Cool Hand Luke and Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid being two examples pulling from Paul Newman alone.
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Jan 12, 2017 14:47
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Nielsen posted:I figured out where half the good talk in the thread is coming from: The goal isn't to apologize for Disney's responsibility to it's shareholders, it's to arrive at a redemptive, even if oppositional, reading of the film as a cultural artifact. Like, Armond White's reading is not at all glowing but is useful as a lens to interpret what it is saying about the world.
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Jan 12, 2017 14:52
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Nielsen posted:SMG I love your read but if we take what Zizek says + the medium is the message + Your claim that SW is secretely subversive, is Star Wars then not the embodiment of the liberal communist? First through George Lucas and now Disney who both engage in philantropism. The difference being with Zizek's Starbucks example that Starbucks hammers on its ecological message to make you feel good about buying and SW (as presented, without GL or Disney) doesn't really have that pretense. Edit: That said, ultimately it's not even necessary to try to get at the filmmakers' intentions. For an extreme example, Suss the Jew is a horrible Nazi propaganda film...but a reasonable person's reading of the film is that the triumphant defeat of the Jewish villain who ruined the city is just ignoring the city's real problems. Palpatine is just some old politician. If he can singlehandedly seize control of your government and turn it into an imperial hegemony in a few years, it was already totally hosed up. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 15:50 on Jan 12, 2017 |
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Jan 12, 2017 15:06
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Danger posted:The goal isn't to apologize for Disney's responsibility to it's shareholders, it's to arrive at a redemptive, even if oppositional, reading of the film as a cultural artifact. Like, Armond White's reading is not at all glowing but is useful as a lens to interpret what it is saying about the world. Fair enough, is this reasoned then from the perspective of "the film is this way because of zeitgeist and subconscious effort" or is it "purposefully made" like that? I like the film but I agree with White when he says: quote:In a tired attempt at making this Death Star battle a quasi-political allegory, Disney’s screenplay hacks (including Chris Weitz and Tony Gilroy) cajole the Occupy generation with the phrase “Rebellion is built on hope” — uttered twice, as if Star Wars had not been appropriated by Reagan’s defense department but was now in sync with contemporary student protest. But it’s a deceptive, Machiavellian mantra. Rogue One isn’t sophisticated enough to see past the phrase’s falsehood or adult enough to dramatize the current administration’s betrayal of “hope and change” and how its media sycophants eventually lost public trust in hope or change. Rogue One’s juvenile politics recall how, in Revenge of the Sith (2005), Princess Amidala (Natalie Portman) whimpered, “So this is how liberty dies . . . with thunderous applause.” Liberal reviewers hailed the line as a rebuke of George W. Bush’s reelection. To what extent are we seeing the "liberal politics at work" -and the use and misuse of radical extremists by the Rebellion(also 'Empire' as in USA)- depiction of an Empire looting a ME Holy City (very safe, not taboo for hollywood to critique) and the director's possible subversive message with regards to the Rebellion? Indeed the film doesn't go far enough or hammers in the actual message if it were that reading. Halloween Jack posted:Unfortunately, there's no truly ethical consumption under capitalism.A big obstacle to making subversive film is that making films above a certain scale requires many millions of dollars of other people's money. You still see people like Blomkamp, Snyder, etc. trying their damndest, though. Yeah this gets to the heart of it I think: looking for a version that's "pure" without contamination, which isn't possible when dealing with this IP or probably Hollywood in general. But still, I feel unease at explaining/accepting R1 in this Leftie interpretation because I desperately want it to be so but it isn't treated as such in general nor does it seem to be the takeaway based on what you can see online, which if it is true is a shame. Am I and others to blame for "missing the point" as such or is the film lacking clarity and conviction to see it through like White says? -and who is to blame for that? Disney, the director, both? Also for SMG: did you come to the conclusion about OTs Republic before or after Rogue 1? Because Rogue 1 reinforces Lucas' portrayal in the PT about the Republic, but were that already the case in ANH then Rogue 1 isn't very subversive is it? Nielsen fucked around with this message at 16:30 on Jan 12, 2017 |
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Jan 12, 2017 16:21
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Rogue 1 isn't subversive-on-top-of-subversive, just written and directed by people who actually understand Star Wars.Crion posted:That would be tech Dracula and professional punitive litigation funder Peter Thiel, one of the most powerful men in America, in an expansive interview with the New York Times in which he says doing crime is good because you might otherwise get bored. It's a hell of a piece of work, and so is he. This guy gets so close. "See, the Republic was a deeply dysfunctional dystopia. Palpatine is a benevolent dictator, like Pinochet, the guy who imprisoned thousands of people in rape camps." I know Palpatine is just some old guy, but I think Thiel and Kristol might actually be vampire reptile aliens in human skin.
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Jan 12, 2017 16:30
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Danger posted:The goal isn't to apologize for Disney's responsibility to it's shareholders, it's to arrive at a redemptive, even if oppositional, reading of the film as a cultural artifact. Like, Armond White's reading is not at all glowing but is useful as a lens to interpret what it is saying about the world. Isn't this basically a waste of time though? Star Wars is and always will be a commodity to exchange under capitalism. There are much more direct and relevant ways to diagnose the fundamental contradictions of capitalism. Aren't we better off reading political philosophy and learning how to make bombs in the basement and/or organizing politically?
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Jan 12, 2017 16:45
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Jack Gladney posted:Isn't this basically a waste of time though? Star Wars is and always will be a commodity to exchange under capitalism. There are much more direct and relevant ways to diagnose the fundamental contradictions of capitalism. Aren't we better off reading political philosophy and learning how to make bombs in the basement and/or organizing politically? Sure, maybe. But here we are...
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Jan 12, 2017 16:49
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Jack Gladney posted:Isn't this basically a waste of time though? Star Wars is and always will be a commodity to exchange under capitalism. There are much more direct and relevant ways to diagnose the fundamental contradictions of capitalism. Aren't we better off reading political philosophy and learning how to make bombs in the basement and/or organizing politically? Its the ultimate triumph of capitalism to commodify feelings and ideas and that is what big corporate movies making a political message do. Like said before by Zizek Starbucks sells a good feeling to you by making crocodile messaging about environmentalism and human rights. They're just selling you bullshit and keeping you complacent
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Jan 12, 2017 16:50
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A better subversive message from star wars would've been leftists building bombs and destroying neoliberal icons but here we are
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Jan 12, 2017 16:52
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Hunger Games is better as a leftist work because it fundamentally identifies Facho and Neoliberalism as the enemy and gas them both killed. Also acknowledging the bougouise as the enemy Also recognizing the upper class' exploitation and oppression of the lower class to provide their luxury
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Jan 12, 2017 16:54
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Jack Gladney posted:Isn't this basically a waste of time though? Star Wars is and always will be a commodity to exchange under capitalism. There are much more direct and relevant ways to diagnose the fundamental contradictions of capitalism. Aren't we better off reading political philosophy and learning how to make bombs in the basement and/or organizing politically?
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Jan 12, 2017 17:11
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Fight Club really isn't anti-capitalist though
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Jan 12, 2017 17:16
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Phi230 posted:Also recognizing the upper class' exploitation and oppression of the lower class to provide their luxury Rogue One is explicitly about this. For me at least it comes into focus when Princess Leia calls the Death Star plans hope - it stood in jarring contrast with Jyn's treatment, Cassian's moral compromises for the Rebel-Alliance etc that afford Princess Leia this luxury. Which I felt like was a subtly that White's review missed. Jyn Erso: We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent. Jyn was embarking upon a suicide mission. However when push came to shove the aristocratic leadership of the Rebel-Alliance talked their way out of it - "they've chosen to surrender" or something to that effect - after all why should they believe the word of a criminal*. Which for me comes back to Cassian falling in love with Jyn. It's through her that he found belief in the cause, a belief without the guarantee, for him Jyn became the cause. The guy was acutely aware Jyn was calling for a mission that would be seen as suicidal. *little things like that bring into focus that, even should this Rebel-Alliance to restore the Republic succeed, Jyn would likely end up in labor camp "It's not a problem if you don't look up." Jyn was as much a prisoner of the Rebel-Alliance as the Empire, hence Saw's fears about how they would use Jyn.
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Jan 12, 2017 17:54
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Jack Gladney posted:Isn't this basically a waste of time though? Star Wars is and always will be a commodity to exchange under capitalism. There are much more direct and relevant ways to diagnose the fundamental contradictions of capitalism. Aren't we better off reading political philosophy and learning how to make bombs in the basement and/or organizing politically? I dunno, are you better off drinking water than eating bread? If our conclusion is that popular art is a frivolous bourgeois affectation then we're advocating a kind of socialist Hasidism and I'm neither personally inclined that way nor do I think it's very likely to be successful. Redeeming and repurposing the cultural artifacts of capitalism is worthwhile and effective - the repurposing of cultural artifacts is one of the best moves in the capitalist playbook, in fact.
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Jan 12, 2017 17:56
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Jack Gladney posted:Isn't this basically a waste of time though? Star Wars is and always will be a commodity to exchange under capitalism. There are much more direct and relevant ways to diagnose the fundamental contradictions of capitalism. Aren't we better off reading political philosophy and learning how to make bombs in the basement and/or organizing politically? Phi230 posted:Its the ultimate triumph of capitalism to commodify feelings and ideas and that is what big corporate movies making a political message do. Like said before by Zizek Starbucks sells a good feeling to you by making crocodile messaging about environmentalism and human rights. They're just selling you bullshit and keeping you complacent Halloween Jack posted:Maybe? Probably? It's worth asking if media conglomerates have just completely coopted anticapitalist sentiment at this point, from Fight Club to The Hunger Games. (That said, my Philistine's perspective is that plenty of less capital intensive art movements like Lettrism and Dadaism have also failed to engage the working class. It's almost like weird art students don't really want to get in touch with people who lift heavy things for a wage.) Yeah the irony of arguing in here whether the film is "left enough" is pretty tragic considering. But indeed that is where the friction lies: SW, the ultimate capitalist vehicle peddling poo poo about "hope" and "resistance" against possibly itself.
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Jan 12, 2017 18:06
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Hodgepodge posted:As I recall, Q is the one who exposes the Federation to the Borg by teleporting the Enterprise into another quadrant of the galaxy to encounter a Borg Cube. From a while ago, but the show ended with it basically being realized that Q teleported them to the Borg Cube to prepare them for the Borg. Otherwise, the Borg would have gotten to the Federation with them being unprepared and taken over. Q is basically the opposite of the Prime Directive. He constantly and obviously interferes with humanity, exposing them to advanced technology (his 'magic ' is indistinguishable from advanced technology) to further them to be better. In doing so, he probably saved the entire species, if not the Federation as a whole. And his last lesson to Picard was teaching him to think about causality and multi-dimensionally as opposed to being single minded.
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Jan 12, 2017 19:17
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Nielsen posted:Yeah the irony of arguing in here whether the film is "left enough" is pretty tragic considering. But indeed that is where the friction lies: SW, the ultimate capitalist vehicle peddling poo poo about "hope" and "resistance" against possibly itself. This is not a matter of attacking/defending 'Star Wars' or 'George Lucas'. Star Wars is a series of films. George Lucas is an old man. They exist, and so what? What is at stake is your own ability to read.
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Jan 12, 2017 19:29
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Attacking and defending Star Wars? Huh? You might want to re-read what's been said. I thought we were getting somewhere. Indeed my ability to read, now influenced by what you've said, my first impression of the film was "muddled politics" until I read your read which is fascinating but is that the truth? And then the posts above here ^ And whether the message actually comes across to audiences if so. Surely more interesting to talk about that than such a simple dismissal?
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Jan 12, 2017 19:40
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Halloween Jack posted:Maybe? Probably? It's worth asking if media conglomerates have just completely coopted anticapitalist sentiment at this point, from Fight Club to The Hunger Games. (That said, my Philistine's perspective is that plenty of less capital intensive art movements like Lettrism and Dadaism have also failed to engage the working class. It's almost like weird art students don't really want to get in touch with people who lift heavy things for a wage.) Blue collar people just don't consume art with a lot of subtext
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Jan 12, 2017 19:46
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theflyingexecutive posted:Blue collar people just don't consume art with a lot of subtext Jesus loving Christ.
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Jan 12, 2017 19:52
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Lmao this took a turn
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Jan 12, 2017 19:54
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It's a question of mental capacity, honestly.
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Jan 12, 2017 19:55
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Once again, people attempt to distract from the truth by hand-wringing over whether the people can handle it. Not-coincidentally, this is a plot point in like half of all Godzilla movies.
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Jan 12, 2017 19:59
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theflyingexecutive posted:Blue collar people just don't consume art with a lot of subtext Indeed -- this is why there was only one Star Wars movie ever made before George Lucas was laughed out of Hollywood and then committed suicide.
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Jan 12, 2017 20:28
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Josh then halts his line of debate to pose a question to Radisson: "Why do you hate God?" After Josh repeats the question twice more, Radisson explodes in rage, confirming he hates God for his mother's death that left him alone despite his prayers. Josh then casually asks Radisson how he can hate someone that does not exist. In the end, Martin (Paul Kwo), a student from China whose father had forbidden him from even talking about God to avoid jeopardizing Martin's brother's chance at overseas study, stands up and says, "God's not dead." Almost the entire class follows Martin's lead, and Radisson leaves the room in defeat.
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Jan 12, 2017 20:29
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Halloween Jack posted:This guy gets so close. "See, the Republic was a deeply dysfunctional dystopia. Palpatine is a benevolent dictator, like Pinochet, the guy who imprisoned thousands of people in rape camps." But if Pinochet weren't a benevolent dictator, that might mean that the US might have done something wrong during the Cold War, and that's just unthinkable.
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Jan 12, 2017 20:33
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An evangelical explicitly saying the very-popular Christian movies are artistic trash, but not as a condemnation of the capacity of evangelicals to understand more complex ideas and characterization https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...m=.f253bbf8507f
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Jan 12, 2017 20:34
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Found that gif I was looking for. http://i.imgur.com/sJbd5zo.gifv
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Jan 12, 2017 20:37
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theflyingexecutive posted:An evangelical explicitly saying the very-popular Christian movies are artistic trash, but not as a condemnation of the capacity of evangelicals to understand more complex ideas and characterization Evangelicals are sliiiightly poorer than the US average but conflating them with "blue collar workers" is a transparent attempt to smoke bomb your way out of saying something stupid and classist.
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Jan 12, 2017 20:50
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What's a decent proxy or search term for blue collar media preferences? I just used Trump-voter and God's Not Dead was the top-preferred movie.
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Jan 12, 2017 20:53
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Paul Blart.
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Jan 12, 2017 20:59
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theflyingexecutive posted:What's a decent proxy or search term for blue collar media preferences? I just used Trump-voter and God's Not Dead was the top-preferred movie. Trump voters made more money than Clinton voters. Your premises are flawed - not all poors are alike, and the US capitalist system has been very successful at breaking up class solidarity as a cultural unifier. Blacks and hispanics are disproportionately "blue collar" if we take that to mean low wage or non-management. Union workers and industrial production workers are a pretty small segment of the population now and I don't know of any tracking on their media preferences. And of course, films don't have measurably "more" or "less" subtext and that wouldn't be a proxy for quality or uh, meaning (?) if they did. Art is for the people - but it's our responsibility to engage with it, and make it.
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Jan 12, 2017 21:06
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http://www.medialit.org/reading-room/we-are-what-we-watch-we-watch-what-we-are It's not an evaluation or criticism of blue-collar workers or their intellectual abilities. A majority of that group don't seek out Dadaist communities or works is all.
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Jan 12, 2017 21:09
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theflyingexecutive posted:http://www.medialit.org/reading-room/we-are-what-we-watch-we-watch-what-we-are That's the thing about subtext, though, it's kinda submerged into things where it's not obvious. It's in popular culture. It's in, arguably, everything. Subtext doesn't just mean fancy obtuse "highbrow" stuff. A lot of people- working class and otherwise- may avoid "obviously" political or symbolic art, but that's a different thing.
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Jan 12, 2017 21:22
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I don't want to argue in circles or defend a point I'm not trying to make. I was responding to why working class/blue collar exurban people don't participate in art movements, which I see almost entirely as a lack of exposure to critical art theory and a culturally-reduced role of art creation/discussion/recontextualization in their interests. Again, it's probably just in the way Art Scholars classify "art movements" that blue collar art movements would be firmly underrepresented in the academic sphere.
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Jan 12, 2017 21:27
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I always wanted to know the conservative reaction to Generation Kill
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Jan 12, 2017 21:42
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