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Not to turn this into election chat, but the idea of winning converts seems really dumb when the problem was millions of Obama voters staying home. E: VVV Totally fair, I will squash this before it begins. WampaLord fucked around with this message at 15:42 on Jan 13, 2017 |
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Jan 13, 2017 15:38
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WampaLord posted:Not to turn this into election chat, but the idea of winning converts seems really dumb when the problem was millions of Obama voters staying home. There were a lot of problems but I have no interest in rehashing them here honestly. Koalas March fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Jan 13, 2017 |
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Jan 13, 2017 15:40
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WampaLord posted:Not to turn this into election chat, but the idea of winning converts seems really dumb when the problem was millions of Obama voters staying home. I had a rant here about how you can't blame people for being suppressed but in deference to your edit it's been shortened to just this unless you want to PM about it.
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Jan 13, 2017 15:43
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blackguy32 posted:My post wasn't about forums drama, but rather this notion that has popped back up in the age of Trump that if only people were nicer, then we can win converts to our side. I can be nice, but the kind of ally you want is one that does it of their own will, not one that needs to be coaxed and convinced little by little. That sort of stuff is the usual argument of centrist liberals who aren't actually effected by these issues. I might be wrong but I think history shows that violence is the only way to defeat racists/sexists etc. (as well as being a justified response) and being "kind" to them just let them stamp on you even more.
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Jan 13, 2017 15:52
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Eej posted:People get pissy that they got called on for something they believe they should have gotten away with as opposed to getting owned for something they know is going to land them in trouble. This is very true. It's funny, because the reason that it hurts is that even tho someone might be semi trolling, or even standing halfheartedly behind some post, playing devils advocate, being probated for saying it makes them realize that they might actually believe the thing.
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Jan 13, 2017 15:53
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blackguy32 posted:My post wasn't about forums drama, but rather this notion that has popped back up in the age of Trump that if only people were nicer, then we can win converts to our side. I can be nice, but the kind of ally you want is one that does it of their own will, not one that needs to be coaxed and convinced little by little. Because apparently the worst thing you can do to someone is make them feel guilty about casual racism or any other issue. Though really it's more because people have serious trouble understanding things as a broad spectrum and thus tend to think on a more interpersonal level (Also why really big numbers have less of an impact than smaller ones). It's part of why people tend to think of themselves as being immune to propaganda because they're "Too Smart For It".
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Jan 13, 2017 15:55
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Praseodymi posted:That sort of stuff is the usual argument of centrist liberals who aren't actually effected by these issues. I might be wrong but I think history shows that violence is the only way to defeat racists/sexists etc. (as well as being a justified response) and being "kind" to them just let them stamp on you even more. My man this is significant and crass revision of the polite discussion on Cable Street.
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Jan 13, 2017 15:57
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Tesseraction posted:My man this is significant and crass revision of the polite discussion on Cable Street. I also just found this article about the decorated first black London Met officer being stopped by the police while on a walk.
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Jan 13, 2017 15:58
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Taerkar posted:Because apparently the worst thing you can do to someone is make them feel guilty about casual racism or any other issue. I think part of the problem is that, discounting people who are racist and actually proud of it for the moment, there's been a lot of work done on making people realize that it's bad to be racist, and I think to a certain degree, people have really internalized that message. The problem is that there hasn't been equal effectiveness in actually explaining what racism is and how it works, at least on a societal level, so you end up with a lot of people who probably genuinely do believe it's very bad to be racist, but are unaware of the ways in which they have been and continue to be racist and reinforce white supremacy. Because of this, when you point out that they're doing something racist, it upsets them a great deal precisely because they've internalized the message that racism is bad and they don't want to confront the unpleasant truth that they've been doing bad things. Getting people to be introspective enough to analyze and confront their own flaws is going to be a difficult problem, but going forward I think one way to address this in the next generation is to spend more time educating people, preferably while they're still quite young, on the actual processes of racism and white supremacy, instead of repeating the "racism is bad, m'kay" message and acting like that's the goal instead of the starting point. EDIT: Sadly, I don't see a lot of hope for people that are just going to get angry and shut down when they're confronted with their own racism, but I'm quite sure that not addressing it is not a solution, so the best bet is probably to confront people and hope that some of them listen. I'd also suggest that "winning converts" away from racism probably has more significant implications on people of colour than simple electoral success, which is why this debate really shouldn't be framed in terms of "why Hillary lost and how we can fix that." PT6A fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Jan 13, 2017 |
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Jan 13, 2017 16:09
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A question for the residents of Negrotown. I was browsing through my news feed this morning and I saw something about some episode of some British show that's being pulled from the air after a bunch of people got their panties in a twist over a white actor being cast to portray Michael Jackson. And it got me wondering, why is this something worth people flipping their poo poo over while Hamilton is praised as good and cool for the exact same reason? For disclosure, I live and work in a nice white bubble where this poo poo doesn't affect me in the least, and I don't really have any strong feelings about it, just curious at the apparent hypocrisy.
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Jan 13, 2017 16:16
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ReidRansom posted:A question for the residents of Negrotown. I was browsing through my news feed this morning and I saw something about some episode of some British show that's being pulled from the air after a bunch of people got their panties in a twist over a white actor being cast to portray Michael Jackson. And it got me wondering, why is this something worth people flipping their poo poo over while Hamilton is praised as good and cool for the exact same reason? I admit I haven't seen Hamilton but unless MJ cameos as a founding father I think you might need to clarify what 'same reason' means?
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Jan 13, 2017 16:18
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Tesseraction posted:I admit I haven't seen Hamilton but unless MJ cameos as a founding father I think you might need to clarify what 'same reason' means? Racially subversive casting. e: or maybe just race-blind. Whichever.
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Jan 13, 2017 16:21
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ReidRansom posted:A question for the residents of Negrotown. I was browsing through my news feed this morning and I saw something about some episode of some British show that's being pulled from the air after a bunch of people got their panties in a twist over a white actor being cast to portray Michael Jackson. And it got me wondering, why is this something worth people flipping their poo poo over while Hamilton is praised as good and cool for the exact same reason? Because white people have a history of playing black characters leading to their erasure, but the opposite is completely unacceptable to fragile white people's feelings. In addition to this, Michael Jackson's family specifically said it upset them.
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Jan 13, 2017 16:21
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Whitewashing is bad. Whites portraying black people goes all the way back to blackface and minstrel shows. Then you have white people Emma Stone playing poc, in a role that could've easily went to a poc actor. Michael Jackson should be played by a black actor. He was black. Believe or not, he was proud to be black. This is a man who had several music videos dedicated to it. On top that, growing up he was constantly belittled by his abusive father about being ugly, and having a "big negro nose". There's honestly so many layers of wrong. If you want to jump in and claim, "well he bleached his skin, because vitiligo.." You can use a black actor to portray Michael during that time. And they have. This was the man who made "They Don't Care About Us" and a stunning video full of black people, as King and Queens in Africa. This is a man with a music video where he literally morphs into a black panther at the end. Also I'm posting this because it's good and awesome. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeiFF0gvqcc
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Jan 13, 2017 16:23
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It really depends which stage of Michael jackson's life he's portraying https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-SV8YL4Fmg JFairfax fucked around with this message at 16:25 on Jan 13, 2017 |
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Jan 13, 2017 16:23
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JFairfax posted:It really depends which stage of Michael jackson's life he's portraying Koalas March posted:If you want to jump in and claim, "well he bleached his skin, because vitiligo.." You can use a black actor to portray Michael during that time. And they have.
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Jan 13, 2017 16:24
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http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/tv/2017/01/13/urban-myths-episode-joseph-fiennes-michael-jackson-canceled/96530596/ All you need to know about why the casting decision was a dumb one.
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Jan 13, 2017 16:25
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Koalas March posted:Whitewashing is bad. Whites portraying black people goes all the way back to blackface and minstrel shows. Heck I'm about as white a motherfucker as you're likely to see, but even I grok why the two situations (Hamilton and MJ) are completely, utterly asymmetric.
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Jan 13, 2017 16:25
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 If I didn't know this story I don't think I could even guess who that's supposed to be.
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Jan 13, 2017 16:27
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gently caress he looks like Gary Oldman's character from Hannibal
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Jan 13, 2017 16:29
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It also means they don't know poo poo about Jackson, they're making a movie about the Jackson caricature popularized in the last, what, 10 years of his life?
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Jan 13, 2017 16:29
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mdemone posted:Heck I'm about as white a motherfucker as you're likely to see, but even I grok why the two situations (Hamilton and MJ) are completely, utterly asymmetric.
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Jan 13, 2017 16:31
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mdemone posted:gently caress he looks like Gary Oldman's character from Hannibal A Francis Dolarhyde resurrection, maybe? Because he played the serial killer in Red Dragon?
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Jan 13, 2017 16:31
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blackguy32 posted:I disagree. Black characters have their own set of experiences and backgrounds that make them different and it should flow from the story set out. To get kind of nerdy here, think of how Benjamin Sisko's background as a black man, paints his relationship with the Bajorans. Leslie Odem Jr. made this point in one of those actors roundtables that pop up this time of year, that we don't just need black actors, but black stories as well. Colorblind casting gets you diversity in characters, but not diversity in stories or perspective which are also important. http://siz.io/hamiltons-leslie-odom-jr-talks-diversity-on-broadway/?src=tum Link if anyone wants to watch it.
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Jan 13, 2017 16:32
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FactsAreUseless posted:It also means they don't know poo poo about Jackson, they're making a movie about the Jackson caricature popularized in the last, what, 10 years of his life? It's apparently an urban myth about him after 9/11 - blackguy32's link here has the full story: blackguy32 posted:http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/tv/2017/01/13/urban-myths-episode-joseph-fiennes-michael-jackson-canceled/96530596/ Of note: quote:In a 1993 TV interview with Oprah Winfrey, the singer, who died in 2009, once shared his feelings about potentially being played by a white actor after stories circulated that a Caucasian child would play him in a Pepsi commercial.
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Jan 13, 2017 16:33
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PT6A posted:I think part of the problem is that, discounting people who are racist and actually proud of it for the moment, there's been a lot of work done on making people realize that it's bad to be racist, and I think to a certain degree, people have really internalized that message. The problem is that there hasn't been equal effectiveness in actually explaining what racism is and how it works, at least on a societal level, so you end up with a lot of people who probably genuinely do believe it's very bad to be racist, but are unaware of the ways in which they have been and continue to be racist and reinforce white supremacy. Because of this, when you point out that they're doing something racist, it upsets them a great deal precisely because they've internalized the message that racism is bad and they don't want to confront the unpleasant truth that they've been doing bad things. Koalas March has pointed out that Colin Kaepernick took a completely silent form of protest against racism, and look how that has been twisted. It wasn't him being mean or rude to anyone. But it was a great opportunity for people to look up information about racism in the country today, and look how people handled it. The education is out there. I don't know how many times you can inform people about incarceration rates or segregation or redlining just for them to gaslight you without you going insane.
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Jan 13, 2017 16:33
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blackguy32 posted:Koalas March has pointed out that Colin Kaepernick took a completely silent form of protest against racism, and look how that has been twisted. It wasn't him being mean or rude to anyone. But it was a great opportunity for people to look up information about racism in the country today, and look how people handled it. The education is out there. I don't know how many times you can inform people about incarceration rates or segregation or redlining just for them to gaslight you without you going insane. I mentioned it in the Cultural War thread and no matter how well you reach someone in any one situation it's all worthless if they go home and watch Fox News (to get the obvious out of the way) or CNN ("Are Jews human?") or MSNBC (good evening this is your new anchor Megyn "Don't worry kids, Santa is definitely white" Kelly)
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Jan 13, 2017 16:36
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blackguy32 posted:Koalas March has pointed out that Colin Kaepernick took a completely silent form of protest against racism, and look how that has been twisted. It wasn't him being mean or rude to anyone. But it was a great opportunity for people to look up information about racism in the country today, and look how people handled it. The education is out there. I don't know how many times you can inform people about incarceration rates or segregation or redlining just for them to gaslight you without you going insane. Yep, and then you have people increasingly repeating racist talking points and doubling down, so eventually you reach a point where you emotionally and mentally can not stay calm or pleasant because you're realizing more and more that this person does not care about your oppression or your humanity and you understandably get heated because you are a human being they act like you've committed a hate crime for not being their friendly negro door mat.
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Jan 13, 2017 16:38
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Tesseraction posted:It's apparently an urban myth about him after 9/11 - blackguy32's link here has the full story: Yeah. The show is an intentionally irreverent show, but at least the creators of the show and the actor involved agreed to not run the show after Michael's family objected to it. Certain other "comedy" shows would have said "gently caress you" and ran it anyway.
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Jan 13, 2017 16:40
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biracial bear for uncut posted:Yeah. The show is an intentionally irreverent show, but at least the creators of the show and the actor involved agreed to not run the show after Michael's family objected to it. Yeah. It's a shame as well because a) it could've been funny and b) Britain's comedy scene does have a diversity problem and it'd be nice to have seen a black comedian (or actor) play the role.
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Jan 13, 2017 16:44
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I spoke to the other whites, and we've put together a list of acceptable black protests: Shucking and jiving Saying "Oh lawd!" [Note: we're still debating "Nuh-uh!"] Baking a pie, then sharing it with your white neighbors Raps without swears in Apologetic silence Sighing in private Friendly smiles at half-mast Sitting in the middle of the bus Madea Goes To Washington Reading that day's "Boondocks," then clipping out the Dilbert next to it and putting that up in your cubicle
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Jan 13, 2017 16:46
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Praseodymi posted:Because white people have a history of playing black characters leading to their erasure, but the opposite is completely unacceptable to fragile white people's feelings. In addition to this, Michael Jackson's family specifically said it upset them. Idunno, I feel like either race matters and and should be respected uniformly, or it doesn't and people should just do whatever they want across the board. e: Either one, I don't care which. Koalas March posted:
Good it may be, but I'm calling this another example. I know it's still a somewhat controversial topic, but ancient Egyptians are generally thought these days to have looked pretty much the same as they do now, not like Eddie Murphy or Magic Johnson. Iman gets a pass. ReidRansom fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Jan 13, 2017 |
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Jan 13, 2017 16:49
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ReidRansom posted:Idunno, I feel like either race matters and and should be respected uniformly, or it doesn't and people should just do whatever they want across the board. Race matters will be respected uniformly when people of different races are treated uniformly. Also, that video is like from 1991. blackguy32 fucked around with this message at 16:54 on Jan 13, 2017 |
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Jan 13, 2017 16:51
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"I have a dream," stated Martin Luther King Jr. "that we stop all this civil disobedience nonsense and try having polite one-on-one conversations with the people voting against our quality of life. If they're not too busy. It is only thr--" [rest of speech obscured by tear gas]
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Jan 13, 2017 16:52
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"These days" That video was made almost 2 decades ago. Let it go. That entire post is an example of black folks not being allowed to have poo poo in some people's eyes. And idk man Khufu looks pretty black to me. 
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Jan 13, 2017 16:53
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Figuring this might be of interest to those of y'all in the Boston area on Valentine's Day: http://hutchinscenter.fas.harvard.edu/events-lectures/events/february-14-2017-400pm/bobby-seale-conversation-henry-louis-gates-jr Really wishing I could go to this and hoping they record and upload it.
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Jan 13, 2017 16:53
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Koalas March posted:Yep, and then you have people increasingly repeating racist talking points and doubling down, so eventually you reach a point where you emotionally and mentally can not stay calm or pleasant because you're realizing more and more that this person does not care about your oppression or your humanity and you understandably get heated because you are a human being they act like you've committed a hate crime for not being their friendly negro door mat. The onus for change is also upon those with the power, not upon those who are still being held back and put at a significant disadvantage by those with the power. Instead right now it's pretty much "You need to do all of the work for us", which is a time honored tradition in this country. FactsAreUseless posted:I spoke to the other whites, and we've put together a list of acceptable black protests: Nope, there's only one acceptable protest these days: Doing nothing. Edit: clarity (hopefully)
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Jan 13, 2017 16:55
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FactsAreUseless posted:I spoke to the other whites, and we've put together a list of acceptable black protests: Since I was not a part of that meeting, I'd like to suggest substituting Marmaduke for Dilbert. Please put it up for a vote at the next meeting. Also all pies should be verboten after the beans were spilled about what really goes into those pies, as shown in the movie The Help.
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Jan 13, 2017 17:12
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there wolf posted:Leslie Odem Jr. made this point in one of those actors roundtables that pop up this time of year, that we don't just need black actors, but black stories as well. Colorblind casting gets you diversity in characters, but not diversity in stories or perspective which are also important. On that note Moonlight was real good
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Jan 13, 2017 17:13
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Koalas March posted:"These days" That video was made almost 2 decades ago. Let it go. it's just tit for tat for saying Jesus ain't white you see
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Jan 13, 2017 17:17
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