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Darth Walrus posted:I'd assume that the distinction is between immigrants from African countries and immigrants from other countries who happen to have African ancestry. Yes that's what I was getting at. Sorry if it wasn't clearly phrased.
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Jan 14, 2017 16:15
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Phyzzle posted:How does a producer know if it's more profitable to cast a white man for a given role? How would he go about determining that? Yeah I'd say that is the depth of market research performed.
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Jan 14, 2017 16:40
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Pastrymancy posted:Yes that's what I was getting at. Sorry if it wasn't clearly phrased.
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Jan 14, 2017 16:58
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There was another case of police overreach in the Chicago area this week. A white woman saw a black man with what she thought was a crowbar get into a car and drive away. She called the police, and he was chased by 4 or 5 cruisers. As it turned out, it was actually his car. Thankfully he was alive and not beaten up too badly, but there are a couple things of interest to me about this incident: 1. He was told at one point to stop resisting while he was clearly on the ground in handcuffs. I always hate that. 2. At one point he stops answering their questions citing the 5th amendment. The police tell him that amendment doesn't apply. 3. One of the police officers gets in touch with the woman who made the initial call. She begins to cry saying she "wasn't trying to racially profile". The cop comforts her and says the suspect "has other issues". The man has filed a law suit. I wish he could sue the woman who made the call. She basically almost got him killed for no reason. http://www.fox32chicago.com/news/local/228831926-story
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Jan 14, 2017 17:09
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Who the gently caress freaks out because you saw a black guy carrying a crowbar. Maybe he needs to use a crowbar you loving idiot?
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Jan 14, 2017 17:32
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Morby posted:I wish he could sue the woman who made the call. She basically almost got him killed for no reason. This needs to happen. Considering how wealthy the area is supposed to be (at least from what I've learned so far), I'm pretty sure she can stand a punch in the pocketbook for pulling this poo poo.
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Jan 14, 2017 17:34
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I don't think reports should be punished. Its the police response that should be criticized, particularly their protocol. I don't know how to make a race blind protocol and I've never heard the police ever address the problem.
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Jan 14, 2017 17:41
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Fluffdaddy posted:You do know black people are not just sub saharan africans but northern africans as well right? If you mean countries like Chad or Sudan or Mauritania then I agree, although my opinion on the matter doesn't actually mean very much. If you mean Egypt and Libya, well I think the inhabitants themselves would disagree with this statement. But it's as distorting of history to call the Ancient Egyptians black is it is to call them white. They were neither. Vincent Van Goatse fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Jan 14, 2017 |
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Jan 14, 2017 17:44
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:If you mean countries like Chad or Sudan or Mauritania then I agree. If you mean Egypt and Libya, well I think the inhabitants themselves would disagree with this statement. What point are you trying to make?
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Jan 14, 2017 17:49
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temple posted:I don't think reports should be punished. Its the police response that should be criticized, particularly their protocol. I don't know how to make a race blind protocol and I've never heard the police ever address the problem. When situations like this happen (i.e. People being accused of stealing their own cars or breaking into their own homes) I absolutely think it should be punished. Innocent people die or are hurt behind poo poo like this.
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Jan 14, 2017 17:55
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temple posted:Egypt and northen africa is no different than the americans. Arabs are not representative of the ancient egyptian people. My point is that it's historically inaccurate to use modern American racial/cultural terms, especially "black" or "white", to describe the Ancient Egyptians. Nothing more, nothing less. EDIT: The genetic studies that have been conducted show that the actual population of Ancient Egypt is more or less genetically identical to that of modern Egypt with allowances made for small sample size and several millennia of further interaction with the rest of the world. The term "Arab" is very much a blanket term for various North African peoples who had very different cultural identities prior to being conquered by Rome and then Islam. Vincent Van Goatse fucked around with this message at 18:04 on Jan 14, 2017 |
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Jan 14, 2017 17:57
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:My point is that it's historically inaccurate to use modern American racial/cultural terms, especially "black" or "white", to describe the Ancient Egyptians. Nothing more, nothing less.
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Jan 14, 2017 18:11
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Gonna need a snap of a hand up to the great pyramid to settle this debate
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Jan 14, 2017 18:16
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Yeah, only us white folk, racist groups, and Western culture professors are allowed to get away with declaring any given historical people as black or white. I don't disagree that the Egyptians of the past are likely the progenitors of Egyptians today. I do disagree with people of my own general look feeling comfortable declaring who counts as black and white. We argue that race shouldn't matter, declare ourselves to be blind to it, and state we do not care one way or the other, then argue vociferously about the very thing we supposedly do not care about. Whatever Negromancer did to earn the title of "Arbiter of Blackness" aside, plenty of candidates have appeared in his absence to vie for that position now that it is open.
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Jan 14, 2017 18:17
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temple posted:It really depends on how you define black. By this logic, nobody should complain about the Ancient Greeks and Israelites being called white because it would really depend on how you define white. remusclaw posted:I do disagree with people of my own general look feeling comfortable declaring who counts as black and white. So do I, frankly, which is why I'm saying that the Ancient Egyptians were neither. They were their own thing and claiming them as black or white in the modern sense is appropriation. Vincent Van Goatse fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Jan 14, 2017 |
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Jan 14, 2017 18:18
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Morby posted:A white woman saw a black man with what she thought was a crowbar get into a car and drive away. When I was younger I used to do that in these Chicago neighborhoods about once a month, any hours, while looking like a hobo. Never even got a second look from the cops. So as a white guy you can wander around these neighborhoods with a breaking and entering kit, crow bar, breaker bar, slim jim, bag of tools, etc and not be bothered even at 3 in the morning. And when I say looked like a hobo imagine Rutger Howard in hobo with a shotgun, type cloths + covered with ore and coal. I locked my keys in the car a lot in my early twenties. Like dozens of times.
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Jan 14, 2017 18:19
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It doesn't matter what color ancient Egyptians were actually considering aliens built all their poo poo for them sooooo.
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Jan 14, 2017 18:20
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Hey maybe instead of arguing about who is or isn't black, we talk about poo poo happening to actual black folks. Maybe something infuriating Like this: http://verysmartbrothas.com/why-white-women-like-leah-mcsweeney-are-a-menace-to-society-explained/ Or funny like this: http://verysmartbrothas.com/the-hotep-civil-war-explained/ Or more people can respond to this of they feel so inclined: Morby posted:There was another case of police overreach in the Chicago area this week. A white woman saw a black man with what she thought was a crowbar get into a car and drive away. She called the police, and he was chased by 4 or 5 cruisers. As it turned out, it was actually his car. Thankfully he was alive and not beaten up too badly, but there are a couple things of interest to me about this incident: Koalas March fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Jan 14, 2017 |
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Jan 14, 2017 18:27
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Morby posted:When situations like this happen (i.e. People being accused of stealing their own cars or breaking into their own homes) I absolutely think it should be punished. Innocent people die or are hurt behind poo poo like this. That will also heavily discourage reporting of actual crimes. I recognise most of this thread is already institutionally discouraged from reporting but that's not how it's supposed to work. It's a terrible solution. edit: I'm not gonna respond to the rest of the derail but that wiki did not have useful genetic evidence to support the claim, it had one section on blood typing. Don't just poo poo out wiki links if you're going to argue with such arrogance. BRAKE FOR MOOSE fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Jan 14, 2017 |
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Jan 14, 2017 18:30
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:By this logic, nobody should complain about the Ancient Greeks and Israelites being called white because it would really depend on how you define white. As for "black"ness, there are many definitions so the context needs to be identified. The context of calling ancient egyptans black is based in them being related to indigenous african people culturally, linguistically, and genetically as opposed to arab people (from the arabian peninsula).
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Jan 14, 2017 18:34
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On the matter of ancient Aliens and race. Ancient Alien hypothesis tend to get put in place for many of the same reasons that religious fundamentalists turn to God as the explanation given any currently unexplained phenomena, it is their go to for everything. Where race comes into it is the fact that as a society, we have put a lot of time and effort into studying Western culture, and very little effort until recently into studying other cultures. This is why in general the only things aliens get blamed for in Western culture is stuff like Stonehenge, whereas in other cultures it's either Aliens, or, and this is a key element of the idea that racism has an effect here, it's ancient undiscovered White civilizations that did it, as with Angkor Wat. Now, this is not a perfect explanation. Egypt has been studied, and yet Ancient Alien folk still feel fine attributing the pyramids to Aliens, even when we have an obvious line from early attempts like step pyramids and the the bent pyramid to show us that they didn't just perfectly get it right on the first go. For some reason, they feel comfortable ignoring the history we do know there and replacing it with their own, whereas in Western civilization there seems to be more of a respect for known history, at least where public works are concerned. Ancient Alien conspiricists still do have a habit of attributing religion to Aliens, even in the West. remusclaw fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Jan 14, 2017 |
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Jan 14, 2017 18:34
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:That will also heavily discourage reporting of actual crimes. I recognise most of this thread is already institutionally discouraged from reporting but that's not how it's supposed to work. It's a terrible solution. If you just called the police to arrest someone without a reason, I would think there would be some punishment for you wasting police time. If she called the police based on him getting into a car while being black, that should constitute the same thing. There is no reason why someone getting into a car carrying a common tool should elicit calling the police.
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Jan 14, 2017 18:36
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Koalas March posted:Hey maybe instead of arguing about who is or isn't black, we talk about poo poo happening to actual black folks. The various layers of hosed-up-ness with the whole "Black Guys just want to gently caress my White rear end" are amazingly terrible. Interracial stuff is also apparently very popular among the 'wife cheating on the man' type of stuff. And of course the black men (and it's almost never black women that a guy is cheating with) are often shown as being oh so eager to steal away the white women. Apparently it's rather popular with certain distasteful groups as 'proof' of how there's a real menace out there.
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Jan 14, 2017 18:37
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:That will also heavily discourage reporting of actual crimes. I recognise most of this thread is already institutionally discouraged from reporting but that's not how it's supposed to work. It's a terrible solution. What do you mean about being "institutionally discouraged" from reporting? I want to make sure I fully understand before I respond.
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Jan 14, 2017 18:37
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Koalas March posted:Hey maybe instead of arguing about who is or isn't black, we talk about poo poo happening to actual black folks. That's fine. I was only posting to correct what I saw as a factual inaccuracy that, being a historian with an interest in the Ancient Near East, I wished to point out. I will now bow out of this thread.
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Jan 14, 2017 18:38
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Koalas March posted:Or funny like this: http://verysmartbrothas.com/the-hotep-civil-war-explained/ I dislike the disdain for hoteps because at the core, hoteps want to identify with a heritage beyond slavery. But for some reason, black people, african people, and everyone in between shun african americans who identify with african culture as interlopers or posers. Calling some a hotep is basically saying pretend african. So what does that leave our heritage, slaves?
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Jan 14, 2017 18:44
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Hoteps bring a very awful specific strain of misogyny which is why I dislike them.
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Jan 14, 2017 18:49
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Fluffdaddy posted:Hoteps bring a very awful specific strain of misogyny which is why I dislike them. Same honestly.
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Jan 14, 2017 18:51
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Fluffdaddy posted:Hoteps bring a very awful specific strain of misogyny which is why I dislike them. For me, they are like Libertarians in the sense that I can find one or two reasonable things that I agree with. Like, I think identifying with Africa and the cultures of African countries is great! Exploring that part of our heritage should absolutely be encouraged! But then they have to ruin it by saying crazy poo poo like "homosexuality is an invention of the white man" and "black women have become men and don't know how to act like women anymore" and they completely lose me.
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Jan 14, 2017 18:57
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My problem with most Hoteps (besides the misogony and homophobia) is the same problem I have with people who I even respect who push the we were royalty in Africa narrative. All of our ancestors weren't kings and queens and poo poo. All of our ancestors weren't from Egypt. Meanwhile most "Hoteps" just use nothing but Egyptian royal symbols. I get wanting to find our history in Africa but so few people do it beyond a basic surface level.
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Jan 14, 2017 19:01
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Koalas March posted:Maybe something infuriating Like this: http://verysmartbrothas.com/why-white-women-like-leah-mcsweeney-are-a-menace-to-society-explained/ This is making me laugh so hard, because I shouldn't be surprised poo poo like this happens, but I never really thought about it until now. Dear God, I'm so sorry black people.
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Jan 14, 2017 19:02
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Majorian posted:Dear God, I'm so sorry black people. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRuSSWaBr44
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Jan 14, 2017 19:04
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Fluffdaddy posted:Hoteps bring a very awful specific strain of misogyny which is why I dislike them. Sexism exists in the black community. The problem I have with the hotep label is that it conflate studying african history, challenging eurocentric biases with misogyny.
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Jan 14, 2017 19:05
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Dexo posted:My problem with most Hoteps (besides the misogony and homophobia) is the same problem I have with people who I even respect who push the we were royalty in Africa narrative. That's definitely true. I think a lot of it is just based on what you see in the media. Egypt is a country that a ton of people find fascinating, documentaries about it are easy to find, it has a super interesting history, and it's conventionally acceptable. I know as a child I was obsessed with Egypt. Then I watched "Ghost Writer" and they had the plot line with the character from Mozambique and I started being obsessed with that country, also. Ask most Americans what they know about Africa, and it's not good.
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Jan 14, 2017 19:08
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flashman posted:I'm not arguing against having black leads in movies I'm saying the problem is with the profit seeking nature of Hollywood films trying to attract the largest movie going ethnicity to their films. Except reality does not bear out the supposition that having a white man as your lead will automatically guarantee more profit. The (by far) most profitable movie of 2015 had a black man, a latino man, and a white woman as the lead roles, and it raked in billions. It did have a bunch of very vocal american racists threatening to boycott it, but the actual profit the movie made showed that their boycotting had effectively no impact on the movie's profitability.
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Jan 14, 2017 19:10
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 Is that your takeaway about me?
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Jan 14, 2017 19:15
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Morby posted:That's definitely true. I think a lot of it is just based on what you see in the media. Egypt is a country that a ton of people find fascinating, documentaries about it are easy to find, it has a super interesting history, and it's conventionally acceptable. I know as a child I was obsessed with Egypt. Then I watched "Ghost Writer" and they had the plot line with the character from Mozambique and I started being obsessed with that country, also. Ask most Americans what they know about Africa, and it's not good.
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Jan 14, 2017 19:23
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temple posted:I think egypt is the root of eurocentric historical theft in africa. If you can understand egypt, you can understand a lot of african history in regards to colonization. Many people are not aware that before the europeans enslaved west africans, arabs did it first. Chancellor Williams does a good job of detanglng the primitive african myth by addressing the influence of outside cultures prior to europeans (which they myopically focus on their intrusions while ignoring previous history). The primitive african was the survivor of arab and european colonization and retainers of tradition. Which, I don't place tradition on a pedestal but the people are so lacking because they had to live outside of the society to preserve themselves. There were kingdoms and dynasties in west africa but they were also influenced by their colonizers, making that history tainted by self-defeating cultural biases. And all of this, IMO, makes Ethiopia that much more impressive of a civilization. Because holy poo poo, that is an ooooold, beautiful, unique civilization, that has endured and weathered so much. And we never really learn about. It shouldn't have taken me until my late-20's to find out what the hell "Aksum" was.
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Jan 14, 2017 19:27
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temple posted:Sexism exists in the black community. The problem I have with the hotep label is that it conflate studying african history, challenging eurocentric biases with misogyny. No doubt sexism exist in the black community (we have a whole thread about it) but hoteps have added a lot extra bullshit
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Jan 14, 2017 19:45
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Majorian posted:And all of this, IMO, makes Ethiopia that much more impressive of a civilization. Because holy poo poo, that is an ooooold, beautiful, unique civilization, that has endured and weathered so much. And we never really learn about. It shouldn't have taken me until my late-20's to find out what the hell "Aksum" was.
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Jan 14, 2017 19:58
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