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"The illegal status of sex work in most countries has not eradicated prostitution. Instead, criminalization has increased sex workers’ vulnerability to human rights abuses and created fertile ground for police exploitation, especially of street-based sex workers." https://rewire.news/article/2011/12/15/ending-police-abuse-sex-workers/ "But it’s remarkable that sex workers using a resource describing itself as the “world’s largest bad client database and escort safety tool” seem more concerned about warning each other about police officers than the dangers from which law enforcement is ostensibly meant to protect them." “It terrifies me all the time,” explains the 55-year-old, whose escorting profile describes her as “a small petite adult beauty.” She does screen her clients, but her main worry is about the police. “That’s a way, way, way bigger concern than creepy guys,” she says. “Way bigger.” http://www.vocativ.com/239316/national-blacklist-for-sex-workers/ "Police Violence Against Prostitutes: Thirty percent of sex workers interviewed told researchers that they had been threatened with violence by police officers, while 27% actually experienced violence at the hands of police." http://sexworkersproject.org/downloads/RevolvingDoorFS.html
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Jan 14, 2017 19:23
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Yeah, a huge part of international efforts against human trafficking has firstly been to actually define what it is. There's been a huge waste of resources by the UN for instance where they try and fight indigenous traditions involving talibé, while completely overlooking gross poo poo like organ trafficking where, again the vast number of victims are poor women because it's happening outside the west to their benefit. Nancy Scheper-Hughes has done a shitload of research into that and it's all depressing. I personally am always kinda hesitant to talk about the issue as it comes to prostitution because even if you're legalizing you still end up dealing with the grey-legal areas, about economic coercion and the other shady sides of capitalism and how moral it is to allow that to happen. I dunno.
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Jan 14, 2017 19:58
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Yeah, "I dunno" is pretty close to my views about it in general. TB made some very good points earlier, but I tend towards decriminalization. I'm not sure what kind of model I really think would work best; I do have a bias towards allowing people to do it, but I don't know how to work that in a world of trafficking and coercion. I dunno.
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Jan 15, 2017 09:37
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Several years ago when I was still in university I also learned how international adoption also has a big human trafficking issues. Poor women essentially used as incubators to make babies for rich people. Granted, people adopting didn't have this knowledge so they were essentially unwilling participants
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Jan 15, 2017 13:44
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Oh man, the wonderful discussions I've had with dudes about paying women to bear your babies. "Its no different from manual labour really! It's all a strain on the body!" Two of the dudes I argued about this with are now in the Icelandic parliament~
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Jan 15, 2017 16:55
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54 40 or gently caress posted:While I don't think Hillary was the best candidate, I can't pretend I wasn't a little crushed when I woke up and saw Trump had won. To me it just felt like an entire nation telling us, we as women, will never be good enough. When choosing between malice and stupidity, I personally cannot fault anyone for choosing stupidity (or not choose at all).
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Jan 15, 2017 17:09
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Jack Trades posted:When choosing between malice and stupidity, I personally cannot fault anyone for choosing stupidity (or not choose at all). Yeah no. Hillary wasn't malice, that's all Trump. Trump voters were angry and scared and they wanted to lash out. And now they're hurting themselves, the vulnerable and the entire country.
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Jan 15, 2017 17:23
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Koalas March posted:Yeah no. Hillary wasn't malice, that's all Trump. Trump voters were angry and scared and they wanted to lash out. And now they're hurting themselves, the vulnerable and the entire country. So you're saying that your political opponents aren't rational and were only acting on emotional basis? That seems....very intellectually dishonest. Personally I looked at the kinds of policies all candidates were proposing and I saw an unintelligent moron on one side and an intelligent warmongering corporatist on the other side. Fortunately I'm not an American so I didn't have to make that sophie's choice but if I had to do that at gunpoint then I'd rather take the moron on the basis they he's too dumb to cause as much poo poo as the other person.
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Jan 15, 2017 17:34
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Jack Trades posted:So you're saying that your political opponents aren't rational and were only acting on emotional basis? That seems....very intellectually dishonest. The unintelligent moron is also a warmongering corporatist. People call him an American Berlusconi, but his approach to economics is pretty close to Mussolini's. The minority that voted for him absolutely favored their petty hatreds and strange fears over anything resembling rational thought.
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Jan 15, 2017 17:43
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Jack Trades posted:
Trump might not have Hillary's book smarts but he's certainly smart enough to get his agenda across. Don't be fooled by the media caricature of him as an idiot. He's as cunning as a fox when it comes to pushing his agenda.
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Jan 15, 2017 17:55
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Jack Gladney posted:The unintelligent moron is also a warmongering corporatist. Jack Gladney posted:The minority that voted for him absolutely favored their petty hatreds and strange fears over anything resembling rational thought. Don't you think that using that to automatically dismiss any real points the other side might have is intellectually dishonest?
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Jan 15, 2017 17:59
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You're right, it's pretty ducked up to stereotype the kkk and nazis. Really gave me some clarity, thanks.
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Jan 15, 2017 18:11
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Jack Trades posted:So you're saying that your political opponents aren't rational and were only acting on emotional basis? That seems....very intellectually dishonest. It's true but it's not something we should be judging them for. People caring about poo poo is why they go vote.
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Jan 15, 2017 18:13
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MariusLecter posted:You're right, it's pretty ducked up to stereotype the kkk and nazis. Really gave me some clarity, thanks. I guess we differ on our ideologies but I have this crazy idea of treating people as equals and not dehumanizing anyone, even those that I strongly disagree with. KKK and Nazis thought that they were the morally superior ones and used that to dehumanize their opposition to be able to justify atrocities against their enemies. I think it's wise to avoid that trap because you never know when you're actually in the wrong.
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Jan 15, 2017 18:19
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Jack Trades posted:I guess we differ on our ideologies but I have this crazy idea of treating people as equals and not dehumanizing anyone, even those that I strongly disagree with. That's pretty easy to say when your personhood isn't at risk.
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Jan 15, 2017 18:32
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Solkanar512 posted:That's pretty easy to say when your personhood isn't at risk. What does it even mean?
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Jan 15, 2017 18:40
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Hey, Jack Trades, are you arguing that we should treat the KKK with respect?
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Jan 15, 2017 18:53
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So for a non American, is Hillary really, actually that much worse than previous presidents? Because we know for Trump is. And not just Trump, Pence as well.
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Jan 15, 2017 18:55
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She would have been a less charismatic Obama but more hostile to organized labor. That's literally the only difference. She represented an extension of all his policies.
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Jan 15, 2017 18:58
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More indicative, I think, of a general shift away from the prevailing politics of the last few decades.
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Jan 15, 2017 19:01
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I approve of my new avatar. Whoever bought that, I hope those 10 dollars made you feel better.  Koalas March posted:Hey, Jack Trades, are you arguing that we should treat the KKK with respect? I'm not arguing that you should treat anyone with respect but there's a difference between strongly disagreeing with someone's position and using that to dismiss everything that someone ever says ever again. Dehumanizing groups of people, no matter how wrong they might be, is a sure way to disaster. History clearly shows that. 54 40 or gently caress posted:So for a non American, is Hillary really, actually that much worse than previous presidents? Because we know for Trump is. And not just Trump, Pence as well. Just to be clear. I think that the only actually good possible candidate you had this election was Bernie and DNC hosed you hard on that. Trump and Hillary were like, the worst and the second worst candidate (not actually) and I don't think either of them deserve the presidency but I'd rather not have US sign TPP or go to war against Russia. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 15, 2017 19:15
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Well I guess the European perspective is one that knows from experience that populist nationalism with strong authoritarian and race-identity components is not that bad and no cause for worry. Thank goodness I'm losing my health insurance next week!
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Jan 15, 2017 19:18
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Jack Gladney posted:Well I guess the European perspective is one that knows from experience that populist nationalism with strong authoritarian and race-identity components is not that bad and no cause for worry. Thank goodness I'm losing my health insurance next week!
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Jan 15, 2017 19:21
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I rather hope that no-one in the feminism thread is mocking the disabled. That avatar is apparently an inspiring young man who Down Syndrome who made some sort of well-known speech and not at all to be compared to an internet troll.
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Jan 15, 2017 19:21
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Deceitful Penguin posted:Was it her that wrote some pretty cool and concise articles on the feminization of asian males back in circa 2012? Used some in a discussion as an explanation of intersectionality of toxic masculinity and race in the US and how we had to stop it from perpetuating here in the same way Black narratives had. Yeah, that's part of her area of research. I think her discussion on the hypersexuality in portrayals of Asian and Asian American women, particularly in pornography, contrasted with the feminization of Asian men a pretty interesting contrast. She did some really fascinating archival research at the Kinsey Institute. Sharkie posted:Yeah, "I dunno" is pretty close to my views about it in general. TB made some very good points earlier, but I tend towards decriminalization. I'm not sure what kind of model I really think would work best; I do have a bias towards allowing people to do it, but I don't know how to work that in a world of trafficking and coercion. I dunno. I agree, and while I think it's wrong to deny the women who do do it willingly agency, it just gets so murky given all of the trafficked women and girls involved. It's a pretty complex issue, and I think striking a balance will be rough. I do thing that vice sting, basically, that you linked earlier is positively piggish though. One cool thing that happens recently-CA will no longer be tossing minors in jail for prostitution; rather, quote:They are instead to be treated as victims who can be placed into a safe environment by the Department of Social Services, keeping them out of the criminal justice system and potentially off the streets again forced into prostitution, said state Sen. Holly Mitchell, who introduced SB 1322. Jack Trades posted:I guess we differ on our ideologies but I have this crazy idea of treating people as equals and not dehumanizing anyone, even those that I strongly disagree with. Feminism thread: Morally equivalent to the KKK and Nazis Like what even is this, friend, what atrocities do you think we all are gonna go out and commit? Jack Trades posted:Just to be clear. I think that the only actually good possible candidate you had this election was Bernie and DNC hosed you hard on that. what does this have to do with feminism?
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Jan 15, 2017 20:56
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stone cold posted:Feminism thread: Morally equivalent to the KKK and Nazis Nothing? I didn't mention feminism even once. It's pretty weird that you would assume any of those things. Someone brought up everyone's favorite orange man and responded. I guess I shouldn't have derailed but I've got this sweet avatar out of it. I guess I'll see myself out. Jack Trades fucked around with this message at 21:12 on Jan 15, 2017 |
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Jan 15, 2017 21:03
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How on earth can minors be prosecuted for prostitution? How on earth can someone sit down and go "hmm yes this child is criminally liable for being statutorily raped".
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Jan 15, 2017 21:08
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OwlFancier posted:How on earth can someone sit down and go "hmm yes this child is criminally liable for being statutorily raped". Like this https://twitter.com/SeanMcElwee/status/814979590103961600
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Jan 15, 2017 21:13
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OwlFancier posted:How on earth can minors be prosecuted for prostitution? Conviction rates equal promotions, and that's an easy conviction to make. See also minors being imprisoned for nude selfies. That and in far too many areas there is no alternative to the criminal justice system when it comes to addressing any problem.
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Jan 15, 2017 21:16
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See some people say "well, we need to hear both sides, it's important that everyone's views are represented" To which my response is "no, actually, some people's views are literally objectively evil and should not be represented at all".
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Jan 15, 2017 21:19
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Conviction rates equal promotions, and that's an easy conviction to make. See also minors being imprisoned for nude selfies. This doesn't seem like it should be a criminal justice system issue though tbh, unless we're prosecuting the perpetrators. These children are victims, and again, I am pretty pleased with this approach: quote:They are instead to be treated as victims who can be placed into a safe environment by the Department of Social Services, keeping them out of the criminal justice system and potentially off the streets again forced into prostitution, said state Sen. Holly Mitchell, who introduced SB 1322.
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Jan 15, 2017 21:20
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What mental disease does a person have to have where "treating child prostitutes as victims who need support instead of criminals" reads as "legalization of child prostitution"? I guess those horribly abused and exploited children deserve to suffer in prison so that a more just world might exist.
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Jan 15, 2017 21:22
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OwlFancier posted:See some people say "well, we need to hear both sides, it's important that everyone's views are represented" I don't believe that there is such a thing as "objective evil" but even if we assume for the sake of argument that there is then the Nazi's probably thought that the Jews were "objectively evil" as well.
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Jan 15, 2017 21:28
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Jack Trades posted:I don't believe that there is such a thing as "objective evil" but even if we assume for the sake of argument that there is then the Nazi's probably thought that the Jews were "objectively evil" as well. yeah, they were wrong. that's the point. in what world would we ever live to find out that anti-racism, anti-sexism etc. is actually bad and we just made a mistake? how would that come to pass? the mere fact that some people who were in fact wrong thought they were right doesn't immediately invalidate the notion of factual reality itself.
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Jan 15, 2017 21:33
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Jack Trades posted:I don't believe that there is such a thing as "objective evil" but even if we assume for the sake of argument that there is then the Nazi's probably thought that the Jews were "objectively evil" as well. Do you have any grasp of exactly how disgusting that comparison is? "Well, you can't say that imprisoning children for being raped is wrong, because the Nazis thought that things were wrong and put people in prison as well!" Did you even think for one fraction of a second before opening your mouth? OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Jan 15, 2017 |
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Jan 15, 2017 21:37
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botany posted:yeah, they were wrong. that's the point. in what world would we ever live to find out that anti-racism, anti-sexism etc. is actually bad and we just made a mistake? how would that come to pass? the mere fact that some people who were in fact wrong thought they were right doesn't immediately invalidate the notion of factual reality itself. And Nazi's thought they were fighting the corruption of the human species? In what world is making sure that all of humanity is best it can possibly be is a bad thing and a mistake? My point is that people are VERY prone to mistakes. Which is why I think that it's necessary to treat everyone equally and not dismiss other people as "objectively evil". That way you're less likely to make the same mistake. You might think that you're fighting for the greater good but what if you're wrong? OwlFancier posted:Do you have any grasp of exactly how disgusting that comparison is? "Well, you can't that imprisoning children for being raped is wrong, because the Nazis thought that things were wrong and put people in prison as well!" Can you explain this point in more detail? I've tried reading this a dozen times and I cannot parse exactly what you're saying here.
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Jan 15, 2017 21:40
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Jack Trades posted:And Nazi's thought they were fighting the corruption of the human species? In what world is making sure that all of humanity is best it can possibly be is a bad thing and a mistake? why would i be wrong in thinking that racism and sexism are bad? explain that to me.
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Jan 15, 2017 21:42
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botany posted:why would i be wrong in thinking that racism and sexism are bad? explain that to me. Maybe what you think is racism and sexism are not what they actually are? Or maybe it'll turn out that to achieve your specific goal you'll have to cross some other line? Nazi's were fighting for the betterment of human species. That's what many of them thought. It sounds good on paper but as everyone now agrees, it's not worth it if you have to sacrifice a lot of human lives for that goal. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 15, 2017 21:45
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Jack Trades posted:Maybe what you think is racism and sexism are not what they actually are? Stop posting about racists in the feminism thread.
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Jan 15, 2017 21:46
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Koalas March posted:Stop posting about racists in the feminism thread. Alright, I'll leave this space. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 15, 2017 21:49
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