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Well that's weird coming from a Latin rite bishop. Wait, I knew it! Amoris was just a ploy to reopen the debate on clerical celibacy all along!
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Jan 16, 2017 18:13
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Worthleast posted:The Catholic bishops of Malta announced today that it is "humanly impossible" for some people to live without sex. That kind of seems like one step forward, two steps back. Like, the secular argument here was that sex is normal and healthy, not that you can't survive without it, while on the other hand "no we get it some worldly attachments just can't be resisted" sounds like a negation of free will.
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Jan 16, 2017 18:15
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:That kind of seems like one step forward, two steps back. Like, the secular argument here was that sex is normal and healthy, not that you can't survive without it, while on the other hand "no we get it some worldly attachments just can't be resisted" sounds like a negation of free will. He seems to be referring to "remarried" couples and saying that some of them have good reasons to stay together and are in situations where it's "impossible" to abstain. Seems like a bad argument. Abstaining from sex is actually pretty easy. The problem is that you have to give people a good reason to do it, because sex is rather nice.
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Jan 16, 2017 18:23
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Compline at the cathedral last night was delightful! If you're in LA check it out!
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Jan 16, 2017 19:52
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I never quite "got" the idea that you needed to abstain from sex for additional holiness. I mean if it floats your goat go ahead, but it does seem an odd idea.
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Jan 16, 2017 19:53
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Josef bugman posted:I never quite "got" the idea that you needed to abstain from sex for additional holiness. I mean if it floats your goat go ahead, but it does seem an odd idea. It's about denying your body in all ways. Fasting is the same way. You willfully ignore the demands of your body to force your thoughts heavenward.
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Jan 16, 2017 19:55
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Deteriorata posted:It's about denying your body in all ways. Fasting is the same way. You willfully ignore the demands of your body to force your thoughts heavenward. Doesn't it just actually cause hallucinations due to how hunger works after a certain amount of time? Also, why ignore the body? It's just as much a part of Gods creation as the soul is.
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Jan 16, 2017 20:00
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Josef bugman posted:Doesn't it just actually cause hallucinations due to how hunger works after a certain amount of time? It's about discipline. Yes, the demands of the body need to met, but not whenever the body asks for it. Mastering your appetites, rather than being a slave to them, is the goal.
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Jan 16, 2017 20:04
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Deteriorata posted:It's about discipline. Yes, the demands of the body need to met, but not whenever the body asks for it. Mastering your appetites, rather than being a slave to them, is the goal. Is that for yourself or God? Does fasting truly help people do this? Because it sounds more like punishment.
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Jan 16, 2017 20:17
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Deteriorata posted:It's about denying your body in all ways. Fasting is the same way. You willfully ignore the demands of your body to force your thoughts heavenward. I forgot to eat last week and I ended up fainting and falling between a train and its platform. It was not very conductive to holiness. The catholic church nowadays teaches that sex is actually pretty great and in fact holy, but due to the fact that it allows you to participate in creation by making babies, you need to get the proper ritual approval that comes with a lifelong commitment to one person. So the RCC is not anti sex, just anti extramarital sex. Traditionally Christians were kind of against sex in general, I never really understood why.
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Jan 16, 2017 20:18
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pidan posted:I forgot to eat last week and I ended up fainting and falling between a train and its platform. It was not very conductive to holiness. This is partially what I would be talking about. Also, are you okay mate? The second issue always seemed strange. Marriage was traditionally only something people with inheritances worried about, and even then it wasn't a sacrament until, what the late 1500's? Marriage was a minor issue before people started asking more and more questions about why the Church needed all these lands and then, suddenly, there started being more and more things the church needed to do. Well Early Christianity (from my very brief reading) was convinced Jesus was coming back any day now and so not having sex was closer to what Jesus did and so you shouldn't either. Needless to say these ideas typically lasted about one generation.
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Jan 16, 2017 20:27
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Josef bugman posted:Is that for yourself or God? Does fasting truly help people do this? Because it sounds more like punishment. the tiny problem is eventually i stop being able to think at all and i get shakey and can't work. so i end up not fasting at all during lent, which still bothers me
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Jan 16, 2017 20:49
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HEY GAIL posted:when i fast from meat, i think more about my own sins and about God, i have no idea why but it actually does work for me. As a person who frequents this thread can I just ask all of you guys to go and eat something. Like just go out and eat a pie, because if I start having to set up freaking meal plans and boxing up food packages to people I am going to be pissed. Seriously though guys, do remember to eat. I don't think anything or anyone would want you to get shaky and stop thinking or collapse into the gap in a train station.
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Jan 16, 2017 20:58
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Josef bugman posted:As a person who frequents this thread can I just ask all of you guys to go and eat something. Like just go out and eat a pie, because if I start having to set up freaking meal plans and boxing up food packages to people I am going to be pissed. It's different for different people. Mastering my sense of hunger had a side benefit of being a great way to lose weight. I don't eat when I'm hungry, I eat when it's time to eat and then only as much as I choose to. Obviously, getting obsessed with it can lead to anorexia - but eating the proper amount of food, no more and no less, is the goal.
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Jan 16, 2017 21:16
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Josef bugman posted:As a person who frequents this thread can I just ask all of you guys to go and eat something. Like just go out and eat a pie, because if I start having to set up freaking meal plans and boxing up food packages to people I am going to be pissed. my priest has told me to eat fish during fast days instead, as a compromise, but i can't afford it and i don't want to get poisoned. what i have been doing, is that whenever bad things happen to me during Lent or Advent I offer them up as a substitute fast, but this frustrates me.
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Jan 16, 2017 21:19
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Josef bugman posted:As a person who frequents this thread can I just ask all of you guys to go and eat something. Like just go out and eat a pie, because if I start having to set up freaking meal plans and boxing up food packages to people I am going to be pissed. Don't worry I'm fine. Some very nice people picked me up and even rubbed my legs a bit until I was back to normal.I lost my winter hat though. Eating is a bit of a problem for me anyway, so for lent I always give up fretting about it. I just eat my three meals a day using whatever is convenient. I thought I was being innovative here, but then a while ago I read an article that argued that the modern obsession with eating the right foods in the correct quantities is also a form of gluttony. So some Catholic writer backs me up on this at least.
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Jan 16, 2017 21:20
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i totally agree with you on the modern obsession with "the right foods." Someone who is obsessed with their gluten-free diet, juice fasts, raw foods, and paleo (or whatever) is definitely attached to the things of this world, because look how much time they spend thinking about it! don't you have a bunch of health problems though, pidan? stay healthy, friend
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Jan 16, 2017 21:23
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Josef bugman posted:As a person who frequents this thread can I just ask all of you guys to go and eat something. Like just go out and eat a pie, because if I start having to set up freaking meal plans and boxing up food packages to people I am going to be pissed. Christian fasting is not refusing to eat, but simply eating what you need, and not eating between meals. Think of it like dieting.
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Jan 16, 2017 21:24
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Worthleast posted:Christian fasting is not refusing to eat, but simply eating what you need, and not eating between meals. Think of it like dieting.
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Jan 16, 2017 21:25
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Back in my day, St. Anthony of the Desert lived on nothing but dirt and snakes and was tormented by increasingly violent visions of demons tempting him turned out fine. Made for some badass art though. HEY GAIL posted:i totally agree with you on the modern obsession with "the right foods." Someone who is obsessed with their gluten-free diet, juice fasts, raw foods, and paleo (or whatever) is definitely attached to the things of this world, because look how much time they spend thinking about it! Also called orthorexia! It's...actually an eating disorder. e: I used to know a bunch of people like that. You learn pretty quickly that every food, actually, will kill you. The Phlegmatist fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Jan 16, 2017 |
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Jan 16, 2017 21:31
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pidan posted:Don't worry I'm fine. Some very nice people picked me up and even rubbed my legs a bit until I was back to normal.I lost my winter hat though. I would agree with you. Gluttony is not just overeating, it's about obsession with food. In that sense food becomes a false idol, prized above relationships and everything else.
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Jan 16, 2017 21:31
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Worthleast posted:Christian fasting is not refusing to eat, but simply eating what you need, and not eating between meals. Think of it like dieting. there have been changes in views and practices over time; personally i think of fasting in terms of the black fast, which, iirc, is still described in the catholic encyclopedia
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Jan 16, 2017 21:41
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everything the catholics have ever produced would also be a great name for a metal album
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Jan 16, 2017 21:46
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The Phlegmatist posted:e: I used to know a bunch of people like that. You learn pretty quickly that every food, actually, will kill you.
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Jan 16, 2017 21:56
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Josef bugman posted:Is that for yourself or God? Does fasting truly help people do this? Because it sounds more like punishment. You do it for discipline, the stoics did similar things like not drinking water all day It's not a punishment, it's like spiritual weight training
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Jan 16, 2017 22:38
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Annual Prophet posted:there have been changes in views and practices over time; personally i think of fasting in terms of the black fast, which, iirc, is still described in the catholic encyclopedia  drat, already taken.
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Jan 16, 2017 23:22
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Worthleast posted:
wait, you're serious? i was making a joke about how ridiculous catholic and metal names for things are and you're telling me this is real?
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Jan 16, 2017 23:24
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HEY GAIL posted:wait, you're serious? i was making a joke about how ridiculous catholic and metal names for things are and you're telling me this is real? http://www.blackfastmusic.com/
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Jan 16, 2017 23:26
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It's considerable that fasting is undertaken by people of all sorts of traditions and no traditions. Beyond the Abrahamic religions, the discipline is diversely practiced. Like prayer, Jesus taught that fasting should be deeply personal between the faster and God. I think that if you do not feel the grace of God compelling you to perform a long or formal fast, it's also considerable that there's something else which calls for your action or attention.
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Jan 16, 2017 23:36
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Deteriorata posted:It's different for different people. Mastering my sense of hunger had a side benefit of being a great way to lose weight. I don't eat when I'm hungry, I eat when it's time to eat and then only as much as I choose to. Obviously, getting obsessed with it can lead to anorexia - but eating the proper amount of food, no more and no less, is the goal. Hunger isn't. From what I have read an overall reduction in calories whilst retaining similar sorts of food is usually required. I don't like it when people injure themselves, especially not when people are fainting. HEY GAIL posted:let me clarify: i get shakey whenever i stop eating meat for large portions of time, that's all. i am not starving myself and except that i should even lift, i'm pretty healthy. Have you spoken to a doctor about this, at all? Because it could be a protein deficiency. If you are this poor I would recommend the priest cooks for you. Are there any supermarkets near you that do stuff like fish fingers or squid or crap like that? I'd recommend those. If worst comes to the worst just try tinned fish and have it with sweetcorn and pasta. pidan posted:Don't worry I'm fine. Some very nice people picked me up and even rubbed my legs a bit until I was back to normal.I lost my winter hat though. I'm glad, but you fell onto train tracks! I, again, would advise seeing a medical professional about this, because that would scare the ever loving gently caress out of me. The bit I put in bold though? That can lick my salty thigh. Eating correctly should not be considered gluttony. In the same way that understanding stuff about the body isn't a form of envy or pride. I loathe this ability to try and take peoples normal instincts and immediately change them into "well your sinning if you do that" horseshit. HEY GAIL posted:i totally agree with you on the modern obsession with "the right foods." Someone who is obsessed with their gluten-free diet, juice fasts, raw foods, and paleo (or whatever) is definitely attached to the things of this world, because look how much time they spend thinking about it! If all things of the world are Gods then I would not think that being interested in them prevents you from interacting with Him. The Phlegmatist posted:Back in my day, St. Anthony of the Desert lived on nothing but dirt and snakes and was tormented by increasingly violent visions of demons tempting him turned out fine. Oh for the love of... Look I am sure even the Stylites actually ate something and were not sustained by heavenly foodstuffs, otherwise 30 years on a pillar would actually just be how long until the mummified corpse finally blew off the top of the pillar. The Phlegmatist posted:Also called orthorexia! It's...actually an eating disorder. Can't say I am surprised. Deteriorata posted:I would agree with you. Gluttony is not just overeating, it's about obsession with food. In that sense food becomes a false idol, prized above relationships and everything else. Which you increase by not eating. Besides, piously "not" doing something is just as much a show thing as anything else. Smoking Crow posted:You do it for discipline, the stoics did similar things like not drinking water all day It is a punishment. Wanting to atone for normal things is punishing yourself. Also I very much doubt it is "spiritual weight training". At least with real life weight training you can see results. Just going for a longer time without food or water means you start seeing poo poo and your entire body starts to shut down.
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Jan 16, 2017 23:46
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Caufman posted:It's considerable that fasting is undertaken by people of all sorts of traditions and no traditions. Beyond the Abrahamic religions, the discipline is diversely practiced. On the other hand, a spiritual life that never involves fasting is probably lacking, too; Catholics and Orthodox have prescribed fast days (and feast days!) in part to make sure that doesn't happen. I abstain from meat on Fridays not just for the (little-t) tradition aspect, but because it makes me remember - oh, right, it's Friday, I'm giving something up today. (I also use it as a pretext for talking about saints with my sons - "Hey, we're having meat today, and we don't usually, right? That's because it's the feast day of St. Elmindreda of Ipsidipsy!" If the US bishops mandated that US Catholics abstain from meat on Fridays, only solemnities ("first class feasts", if you're Worthleast) would exempt us, but since they don't, I do what helps me and my kids.) I fast from all food before Mass, because it's helpful to me to have a grumbling tummy when I'm thinking about my need for Christ. (I make sure to put food right down my 5-year-old's gullet right before church, because it's helpful to me not to have him wailing about hunger when I'm thinking about &c.)
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Jan 16, 2017 23:49
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Josef bugman posted:Hunger isn't. From what I have read an overall reduction in calories whilst retaining similar sorts of food is usually required. I don't like it when people injure themselves, especially not when people are fainting. You completely missed the point of what I was saying. My body wants to eat more than it needs. If I eat whenever I'm hungry, I gain weight. Learning to ignore my cravings and eat properly is what matters. I am eating the appropriate amount of food. You seem to be going out your way deliberately to misunderstand this whole self-discipline thing.
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Jan 16, 2017 23:50
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fasting is good and cool abstaining from meat is good and cool if you can't that's also good and cool, because we're in a fallen state and so being unable to practice spiritual disciplines should be a natural consequence of that
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Jan 16, 2017 23:54
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zonohedron posted:If the US bishops mandated that US Catholics abstain from meat on Fridays, only solemnities ("first class feasts", if you're Worthleast) would exempt us.  Under the old code, only Holy Days of Obligation in the Universal Church would be exempt. And the abstinence would bind under pain of mortal sin!
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Jan 16, 2017 23:55
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Worthleast posted:
Yes, but even if I attended a parish that exclusively used the Extraordinary Form (and thus the Super Extra Special feastdays were called "first class feasts" and not "solemnities"), and even if my bishop required me to abstain from meat, not "abstain from meat or perform some other penance", I still wouldn't be living under the 1917 code because this is not 1917 
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Jan 16, 2017 23:59
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zonohedron posted:Yes, but even if I attended a parish that exclusively used the Extraordinary Form (and thus the Super Extra Special feastdays were called "first class feasts" and not "solemnities"), and even if my bishop required me to abstain from meat, not "abstain from meat or perform some other penance", I still wouldn't be living under the 1917 code because this is not 1917 Correct, which is why it doesn't bind me now.
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Jan 17, 2017 00:01
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Caufman posted:It's considerable that fasting is undertaken by people of all sorts of traditions and no traditions. Beyond the Abrahamic religions, the discipline is diversely practiced. Most likely, however it could conceivably be argued that fasting in extremis induces an altered state of consciousness that is often right up there "fermented fruit drink" and "These weird mushrooms I found", hence why people think it is a good way of contacting the divine. That I have no issue with. But it does seem sensible that Ramadan has stuff in it like "don't kill yourselves fasting, eat something if your in dire straights for pities sake". Deteriorata posted:You completely missed the point of what I was saying. My body wants to eat more than it needs. If I eat whenever I'm hungry, I gain weight. Learning to ignore my cravings and eat properly is what matters. Are you sure your hungry and not bored, thirsty or tired? Because those things often get mixed up with "hungry". Your body may well be trying to tell you stuff anyway and working it out is just as important. I am not, I simply dislike the idea of, again, people fainting and getting sick from it. zonohedron posted:On the other hand, a spiritual life that never involves fasting is probably lacking, too; Catholics and Orthodox have prescribed fast days (and feast days!) in part to make sure that doesn't happen. I still don't understand why. The gods only know I have never seen the people I know who are Catholic take it seriously, but then different cultures I suppose.
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Jan 17, 2017 00:01
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Pro tip for pre communion fast, stop eating breakfast all together and you won't feel hungry in church 2 meals a day life
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Jan 17, 2017 00:08
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Smoking Crow posted:2 meals a day life 3 meals a day plus healthy snacks and at least 5 pieces of fruit and veg will extend that life far more. I would assume God would prefer that everyone live long, busy and reasonably happy lives making life better for all.
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Jan 17, 2017 00:13
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Josef bugman posted:3 meals a day plus healthy snacks and at least 5 pieces of fruit and veg will extend that life far more. if god wanted that we wouldn't have martyrs one meal a day is all this body needs
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Jan 17, 2017 00:23
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