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If someone is actually behaving like some kind of deviant on the bus and hassling people with their phone porn then that is objectionble for other reasons, but the thesis statement that the Guardian article seems to be making, that people manifestly minding their own business and not involving other people unless they are deliberately trying to be nosy, are somehow committing harassment, is wrong. I don't agree with it. You certainly do get harassment on public transit but what is described in the initial BBC article is not it, and I object to the attempt to draw equivocation between the two. Being a creep leering at women on the bus is wrong, using your phone as personally as you can on a crowded bus is not. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 07:18 on Jan 17, 2017 |
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Jan 17, 2017 07:15
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OwlFancier posted:Unless it's a different article, yes... the article posted:For some, it must surely be about the shock and the upset, about feeling power over the woman watching. So much of porn sees women objectified and subjugated. When you’re in public and see a man much bigger and stronger than you looking at pornography, it’s not a huge jump to interpret his dirty smirk as “this is what you’re for. And just try doing something about it.” That was the subtext I felt, as a schoolgirl, sitting next to an old man on the bus who would alternate leering at a half-naked girl on Page 3 of the Sun with leering at me, a 13-year-old. So you're trivializing the contents of an article you didn't read. You think you are such an expert that you get to weigh in on things you didn't even bother to inform yourself about. Why are you so much better at judging this woman's experiences than she is, that you don't even need to know about them to tell her that she's wrong? Do you have anything to contribute to a feminist discussion besides trivializing sexual harassment and providing an object lesson in how patriarchy leads ignorant men to assume they're the authority on whatever conversation they wander into?
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Jan 17, 2017 07:19
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I specifically said the article referenced in the guardian article, the BBC one. The problem with the creepy fucker is that he's a creepy fucker creeping on women, which would still be a problem regardless of his porno habit.
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Jan 17, 2017 07:20
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OwlFancier posted:I specifically said the article referenced in the guardian article, the BBC one. All you said was "that article made me laugh." Patronizing dilbertdads like you laugh at every woman saying she's uncomfortable right up until she gets assaulted, and then it's "why didn't you do something, it's your responsibility to watch out for yourself you know." A man watching porn in public does not respect social boundaries and frequently that's the only warning a woman has that this is a man she's not safe around. Now let me do your next line: "Lol, hysterical fee-males." Now, again: Do you have anything to contribute to a feminist discussion? Tiny Brontosaurus fucked around with this message at 07:26 on Jan 17, 2017 |
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Jan 17, 2017 07:22
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No, I said the article referenced by that one in the next sentence, because I read that one earlier in the week and the Guardian article as a response to that initial BBC article is poor. They are discussing two different things. Conflating the two is, i think, counterproductive because it doesn't hold up to scrutiny.
OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 07:27 on Jan 17, 2017 |
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Jan 17, 2017 07:24
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Defenestration posted:Yeah I put the word "feminist" right up front to cut the chaff. Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Yikes. Women do experience much worse on public transit, and it gets laughed at just like this. Assault is the product of escalating boundary-crossing. We can do nothing to combat harassment at any level of we mock women for asserting those boundaries. Doing sexual activities in an environment where not everyone has consented to it is wrong no matter how much of a tough guy you'd like to think of yourself as. Men not caring if they make women uncomfortable in public is wrong and it is a feminist issue, and if you think feminist issues are laughable you are in the wrong thread. Getting caught watching porn here is some poo poo that uhhh, would probably end up with your face on social media after a video of you getting confronted about it got popular. I can sort of understand what they mean about having seen worse, but the existence of worse things doesn't negate other things being bad and especially when we're talking about what makes others uncomfortable; it's very important to not trivialize peoples hurtful experiences just because they wouldn't hurt us. I Killed GBS posted:I've written porn while on transit before this is very important for my decision on your merit as a human being fyi!!!1 (Its ok if it was about his sidekick Bilbo though, he's dreamy~)
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Jan 17, 2017 07:26
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OwlFancier posted:No, I said the article referenced by that one in the next sentence, because I read that one earlier in the week and the Guardian article as a response to that initial BBC article is poor. They are discussing two different things. Do you have anything to contribute to a feminist discussion.
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Jan 17, 2017 07:26
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Also, the reason I raised the point was because it's been kinda knocking around my head how a lot of feminist work has just become accepted here, like the fact that pornography is banned from sale, the fact that women aren't forced to ~smile~ and be friendly (basically constantly having to engage in emotional labour) and other poo poo like that. These sorta day to day things rather than the more rights and justice oriented things we get up to more often here. It started with a talk we had recently where it ended up being a bunch of foreign students/immigrants talking about it and while it's a subject I knew well from a problem perspective (foreign born women are after all perhaps the most societally abused group pretty much everywhere) these other, more subtler things just hadn't occurred to me. Interesting stuff anyway
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Jan 17, 2017 07:31
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Deceitful Penguin posted:were bendytoots involved I don't do Real Person Fic, that's a firm line I do not cross.
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Jan 17, 2017 07:33
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Do you have anything to contribute to a feminist discussion. That feminism as a critical analysis of society should not lead someone to conflate quite separate issues. A journalist writing an article should not take what is clearly harassment and try to tie it into some sort of moral crusade against pornography when the two are separate. The BBC article I think clearly illustrates the distinction because it clearly states that the only reason the author knew about it was because she was deliberately looking at the person next to her's phone and nobody else could see or hear it because he wasn't trying to show it to people. So to take that article and use it to support the idea that people watching porn where they might conceivably be seen by others itself is a form of harassment is, I think, not correct. And I don't much like that the author is taking stories from women experiencing actual clear harassment and using them to support her thesis that it's the porn that's the problem. That seems exploitative. If you want to write an anti-porn article I think there are much better ways to support that thesis that don't involve trying to peg people being loving creeps to it. You could write pages about how exploitative it is and the way it affects social psychology surrounding sex and sex relations, which the author obviously touches on but doesn't go into detail with. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 07:36 on Jan 17, 2017 |
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Jan 17, 2017 07:33
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Deceitful Penguin posted:Also, the reason I raised the point was because it's been kinda knocking around my head how a lot of feminist work has just become accepted here, like the fact that pornography is banned from sale, the fact that women aren't forced to ~smile~ and be friendly (basically constantly having to engage in emotional labour) and other poo poo like that. That's really cool, I never knew that about Iceland. Is feminism explicitly woven into your education, like did you study the history of it or have a policy of reading equal numbers of male and female writers, anything like that? Tell me how to achieve your feminist wonderland.
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Jan 17, 2017 07:34
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OwlFancier posted:That feminism as a critical analysis of society should not lead someone to conflate quite separate issues. A journalist writing an article should not take what is clearly harassment and try to tie it into some sort of moral crusade against pornography when the two are separate. The BBC article I think clearly illustrates the distinction because it clearly states that the only reason the author knew about it was because she was deliberately looking at the person next to her's phone and nobody else could see or hear it because he wasn't trying to show it to people. "Moral crusade." Jesus christ, it always boils down to guys like you being terrified mommy's going to take away your porn. This is not contributing. You are not a feminist. Shut up and listen and maybe you will be someday. Or go to redpill and screech about virtue signalling cuntwhores, that's a popular choice too. Like again, how does a policy of no porn-viewing on the bus harm you? Is that the only time you can view it? Do you only reach completion if you've creeped out a stranger? Why is this the hill you've just gotta die on? Edit: And you didn't answer my question, dilbo. Do you have anything to contribute to a feminist discussion? Do you know why you couldn't answer me? Because I do. Tiny Brontosaurus fucked around with this message at 07:38 on Jan 17, 2017 |
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Jan 17, 2017 07:36
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There are positions between "agrees with everything I say" and "is literally hitler" you know. E: For god's sake that was the answer to what you asked.
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Jan 17, 2017 07:39
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OwlFancier posted:That feminism as a critical analysis of society should not lead someone to conflate quite separate issues. A journalist writing an article should not take what is clearly harassment and try to tie it into some sort of moral crusade against pornography when the two are separate. The BBC article I think clearly illustrates the distinction because it clearly states that the only reason the author knew about it was because she was deliberately looking at the person next to her's phone and nobody else could see or hear it because he wasn't trying to show it to people. hey how about we don't loving look at porn in public, is that such a hard thing to do it's not a goddamn moralist crusade to say watching porn on a bus is hosed up. maybe harassment isn't the perfect word for it but it's obviously something that's meant to be watched in private and yeah, I think watching it in full view of others who aren't consenting to it is abusive. it's one step removed from jacking off on a subway then complaining "hey it's not like you had to look"
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Jan 17, 2017 07:39
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OwlFancier posted:There are positions between "agrees with everything I say" and "is literally hitler" you know. No it wasn't, dude. That was doubling down. And "literally Hitler" lol get out of here with your fragile rear end. Guess criticism only goes one way for dudebros huh
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Jan 17, 2017 07:41
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you are a really bad poster people are allowed to view whatever they want on their smartphones that is not illegal, if you do not like that then you can take the liberty of not invading someone else's privacy and eavesdropping on their browsing habits
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Jan 17, 2017 07:43
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I Killed GBS posted:I don't do Real Person Fic, that's a firm line I do not cross. Tiny Brontosaurus posted:That's really cool, I never knew that about Iceland. Is feminism explicitly woven into your education, like did you study the history of it or have a policy of reading equal numbers of male and female writers, anything like that? Tell me how to achieve your feminist wonderland. There's a lot of active groups all the way down the grade school/primary school level from the women/girls themselves and especially now in the age of social media there's a shitload of incredible women that are constantly on the ball about this. Education; well, just like worldwide teaching is a female dominated profession and the majority of educated women in Iceland being feminist means there's a lot of focus by the teachers on it. The educational materials themselves are probably not the real reason and I can't remember there being a specifically feminist course at any point, though that keeps improving with time. Feminism was definitely part of social studies though. There's always more battles left though and we've always been the most American Nordic country so we've been looking over to the US and we've seen just how easily we can lose the progress we've made, so there's been a lot of work done recently to shore things up, change archaic laws and poo poo. also lol for this discussion: as viewing the pornographic material in a public setting would count as distributing it, it would be totally illegal here (i think that was the right article to copy but im super tired) Deceitful Penguin fucked around with this message at 07:47 on Jan 17, 2017 |
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Jan 17, 2017 07:44
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Look if you're going to start making poo poo up I can't have a proper discussion with you, would you like it if I interspersed every response with insinuations that you like to molest goats or something? Then knock it on the head, yeah?
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Jan 17, 2017 07:44
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Argentum posted:you are a really bad poster oh no guys did you hear you can never object to anything that isn't illegal. everything legal is good at all times in all contexts. that's why argentum won't object to me telling him to rip his little bitty cock off and stick it up his rear end, because that's not illegal and that makes it unimpeachable (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 17, 2017 07:45
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OwlFancier posted:Look if you're going to start making poo poo up I can't have a proper discussion with you, would you like it if I interspersed every response with insinuations that you like to molest goats or something? Then knock it on the head, yeah? OH NO IF THE MANSPLAINING DOUCHEBAG TAKES HIS BALL AND GOES HOME HOW WILL WE HAVE FEMINISM
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Jan 17, 2017 07:46
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Argentum posted:you are a really bad poster If I'm sitting next to someone who decides it's a good idea to load up some porn on their daily commute, my privacy is being violated. I don't want to have to catch a glimpse of dick at 8am and know that the person sitting next to me is one step away from masturbating in public while I awkwardly avert my eyes and pretend it isn't happening.
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Jan 17, 2017 07:48
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it seems to me that a buncha people think that watching poo poo in public is a private activity and therefore can't be policed? This seems kinda backward to me? If you're doing it in what is absolutely a public space, why isn't it my business?
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Jan 17, 2017 07:51
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Deceitful Penguin posted:it seems to me that a buncha people think that watching poo poo in public is a private activity and therefore can't be policed? And let's not pretend they hide it. Frequently the point IS to make women notice. Tablet with the sound all the way up is something I've seen more than once.
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Jan 17, 2017 07:52
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In which case we're left with the point that apparently we should respect this freedom of expressing their complete and utter contempt for women and I gotta ask Why should we? Like, even if it was two dudes really getting it on, it still makes me wonder why you don't have more respect for your fellow passengers than watching hardcore poo poo in public.
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Jan 17, 2017 07:54
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:oh no guys did you hear you can never object to anything that isn't illegal. everything legal is good at all times in all contexts. that's why argentum won't object to me telling him to rip his little bitty cock off and stick it up his rear end, because that's not illegal and that makes it unimpeachable good luck i dont have a dick  liberal feminism 101: everyone who disagrees with me must be a man and i must make violent threats against them to assert my dominance Philip Rivers posted:If I'm sitting next to someone who decides it's a good idea to load up some porn on their daily commute, my privacy is being violated. I don't want to have to catch a glimpse of dick at 8am and know that the person sitting next to me is one step away from masturbating in public while I awkwardly avert my eyes and pretend it isn't happening. why are you spying on other people's smartphones, you creep (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 17, 2017 07:55
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Deceitful Penguin posted:it seems to me that a buncha people think that watching poo poo in public is a private activity and therefore can't be policed? It is possible to expect privacy in a public space, I assume you would think it objectionable if someone started reading and commenting on your text messages on the bus, for example. People have personal space even in public.
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Jan 17, 2017 07:55
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Deceitful Penguin posted:In which case we're left with the point that apparently we should respect this freedom of expressing their complete and utter contempt for women and I gotta ask To be completely honest, and to put owlguy aside for a minute because lord knows it's not like he's got an uncommon take, I think it's panic about a slippery slope. If porn is ever frowned upon in any context then maybe one day they'll wake up and all the porn will be gone. And they prize their viewing of porn waaaaayyyy above anything an irl woman might think or feel.
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Jan 17, 2017 07:57
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Argentum posted:why are you spying on other people's smartphones, you creep I'd be upset to see any dicks for any length of time on my morning commute, even if that's just because I caught a view of someone's smartphone in my peripheral vision.
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Jan 17, 2017 07:58
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Argentum posted:good luck i dont have a dick Awww looks like somebody's complaining about something legal get out of here sjw
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Jan 17, 2017 07:59
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Argentum posted:good luck i dont have a dick And I'm what, are you supposed to then just pointedly stare at the ceiling in order to avoid the video? Are you so inured to pornography it doesn't draw you attention and it's just normal to see it for you in a public setting? OwlFancier posted:It is possible to expect privacy in a public space, I assume you would think it objectionable if someone started reading and commenting on your text messages on the bus, for example. People have personal space even in public. They don't, though, do they? And then you have to decide if it's simply apathy/entitlement or actively and willfully malicious and tbh neither are particularly good things to defend
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Jan 17, 2017 08:00
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OwlFancier posted:It is possible to expect privacy in a public space, I assume you would think it objectionable if someone started reading and commenting on your text messages on the bus, for example. People have personal space even in public. Get out of here you godawful ignorant rear end in a top hat, nobody needs your patronizing rear end. You aren't here to contribute, you're just here to play mr. big guy and tell all those silly feeemales what's what. This is a feminist conversation for feminists about feminist issues. You are not a feminist. Go the gently caress away. Doubling-down is explicitly against the rules.
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Jan 17, 2017 08:00
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Deceitful Penguin posted:They aren't being private about it though, are they? In a crowded setting like that, privacy goes both ways; if they absolutely need to watch pornography in a public setting, they could do it in such a way that no-one would know. They very literally are in the BBC article, that's my point. The author says she only noticed because she was deliberately looking at his phone and nobody else would be able to see it, and he made no communication with her or anyone else, and he wasn't jacking off. If you blare porn with the sound on then that's loving gross and you're harassing people, but specifically the act of watching it in as much personal space as you can get on a bus is, well, morally a non issue. Or at least morally as not-an-issue as porn generally is which again you could write an interesting article on if you wanted to. The creeps leering at people are harassing people, the people committing auditory assault on people for their own entertainment should get a belt in the mouth for it. But that's not what started the discussion. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 17, 2017 08:03
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Here's a hot take: you're a weirdo if you think it's cool to watch any kind of porn in public.
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Jan 17, 2017 08:03
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:To be completely honest, and to put owlguy aside for a minute because lord knows it's not like he's got an uncommon take, I think it's panic about a slippery slope. If porn is ever frowned upon in any context then maybe one day they'll wake up and all the porn will be gone. And they prize their viewing of porn waaaaayyyy above anything an irl woman might think or feel. this may blow your tiny mind but women look at porn too, and it is common for this to happen in non-protestant (non-american) societies from my actual life experience. i've seen old ladies lookin at dicks and reading erotica plenty in public. there's a huge difference between holding up a tablet in your face showing off some anime titties (harassment) and just minding your own business on the bus (not harassment)
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Jan 17, 2017 08:04
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OwlFancier posted:They very literally are in the BBC article, that's my point. The author says she only noticed because she was deliberately looking at his phone and nobody else would be able to see it, and he made no communication with her or anyone else, and he wasn't jacking off. Get the gently caress out.
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Jan 17, 2017 08:04
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OwlFancier posted:They very literally are in the BBC article, that's my point. The author says she only noticed because she was deliberately looking at his phone and nobody else would be able to see it, and he made no communication with her or anyone else, and he wasn't jacking off. Why are you defending this, here? It's one thing to discuss porn portrayals and issues of women's agency, but watching porn in public basically indicates that you don't give a gently caress about other people and you're a weirdo. Take this out of this thread, please.
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Jan 17, 2017 08:05
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stone cold posted:Why are you defending this, here? As you wish.
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Jan 17, 2017 08:08
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Argentum posted:this may blow your tiny mind but women look at porn too, and it is common for this to happen in non-protestant (non-american) societies from my actual life experience. i've seen old ladies lookin at dicks and reading erotica plenty in public. there's a huge difference between holding up a tablet in your face showing off some anime titties (harassment) and just minding your own business on the bus (not harassment) Newsflash, you can be a woman and a reactionary too, and a weirdo, women aren't a monolith hive mind, hope this helps~ Also, I wouldn't compare reading erotica with watching porn; you'll get arrested if you whip your genitals out, not if you think words.
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Jan 17, 2017 08:08
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OwlFancier posted:They very literally are in the BBC article, that's my point. The author says she only noticed because she was deliberately looking at his phone and nobody else would be able to see it, and he made no communication with her or anyone else, and he wasn't jacking off. Oh good news ladies, a man is here to tell you what is and isn't harassment! Now you don't have to tax your silly little brains thinking your own thoughts about your own life! You can free up that mental energy to think up pot roast recipes or pick out a new frock to buy to catch a hunka man like this one for your very own.
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Jan 17, 2017 08:08
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She isn't grabbing his hand and looking at it though, she happens to notice it because the bus is crowded. Also you're only talking about the specific instance there when we're talking about it from the example in a more general sense, like the article I linked. To repeat; if you want to keep your viewing a secret, you absolutely can. Tilt yourself to the side, keep it closer to you, et cetera. At the very best, we're dealing here with apathy; i.e. he doesn't give a poo poo if the other person sees it or not. Tied into that would be entitlement where you think it's ok and cool to look at something that is very much a personal/private thing in a public setting without considering whatsoever the effect it might have on others. Then you have the situations the article and others here have mentioned where it's actively malicious and I feel like you want to distinguish between them and I don't particularly see the point. Yes, one of them is worse but so what? In both cases they involve pornography in a public setting and that's that. If you feel like people have some sorta intrinsic right to do things that completely disregard others feelings or whatever then you can just say that and move on I guess. But realize: that is what you are doing and that is why people do not think this is cool
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Jan 17, 2017 08:09
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