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Chalks posted:The whole thing about delaying the spin cycle that fishmech posted does sound pretty clever. this is going to happen in conjunction with peak/off-peak rates and smart meter tech is going to help your appliances know to run their heavy energy cycles (driers, spins, car charging, freezer defrost, dishwasher drying, whatever) once the grid hits off peak which will save you money. You'll probably have the option to opt out of a smart meter and peak rate billing but then they'll just assess your rates at the peak utility charge plus a bit more because they have to send someone out to your house to read the meter
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Jan 17, 2017 20:57
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ate all the Oreos posted:that's why it needs always-on internet connectivity to run, you're not thinking like a proper IoT designer I don't think I've seen a single system that full shuts off systems. In extreme situations things like AC setpoints will get dialed up to 80 or whatever and defrost cycles won't run. Maybe an electric drier won't run, depends on the appliance. Keep in mind that this is just a broadcast to the device telling it that something is going on. It's up to the device to decide how it responds, if at all
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Jan 17, 2017 20:59
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Ur Getting Fatter posted:can't wait for the state-sponsored malware that infects the smartgrid and marks the hottest day of the year as "off-peak". nationwide panic as millions of washers and dryers start their spin cycles simultaneously and bring down the whole grid no device will turn on from a smart grid anything
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Jan 17, 2017 21:01
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BangersInMyKnickers posted:no device will turn on from a smart grid anything you say that, but sarnsung is making things so…
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Jan 17, 2017 21:07
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remember that time you could get control of a car's CANBUS from the cell network? why do you think an appliance company will do a better job separating concerns inside a washing machine than a car stereo engineering firm and a car manufacturer?
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Jan 17, 2017 21:08
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BangersInMyKnickers posted:this is going to happen in conjunction with peak/off-peak rates and smart meter tech is going to help your appliances know to run their heavy energy cycles (driers, spins, car charging, freezer defrost, dishwasher drying, whatever) once the grid hits off peak which will save you money. You'll probably have the option to opt out of a smart meter and peak rate billing but then they'll just assess your rates at the peak utility charge plus a bit more because they have to send someone out to your house to read the meter Presumably you could have a smart meter but not plug any of your appliances into it (digitally I mean) and get the convenience of online meter readings without your appliances sometimes deciding not to run when you tell them to. I'm not too sure when off peak times are for electricity - presumably industrial and residential electricity use is all coming from the same source so during working hours won't necessarily be off peak. This makes me think that off peak will probably be during the night and I sure as hell don't want my washing machine scheduling itself to start when I'm trying to sleep. It just all rather feels like things I'd like to keep control of. A couple of hours delay in some of these things could be really inconvenient and I'm struggling to think of an appliance that I wouldn't want control over when it runs. Chalks fucked around with this message at 21:17 on Jan 17, 2017 |
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Jan 17, 2017 21:12
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BangersInMyKnickers posted:You'll probably have the option to opt out of a smart meter are we talking about the same smart meters they're already installing, because afaik nobody's allowed to opt out of poo poo here and there were a bunch of right-wingers protesting the durned gubmint spying meters being forced on them
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Jan 17, 2017 21:13
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ate all the Oreos posted:are we talking about the same smart meters they're already installing, because afaik nobody's allowed to opt out of poo poo here and there were a bunch of right-wingers protesting the durned gubmint spying meters being forced on them going to depend on your utility and state but most are making legislation that allows opting out or disabling the "smart" functionality at a minimum, with obvious billing penalties
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Jan 17, 2017 21:16
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Chalks posted:Presumably you could have a smart meter but not plug any of your appliances into it and get the convenience of online meter readings without your appliances sometimes deciding not to run when you tell them to. I'm not too sure when off peak times are for electricity - presumably industrial and residential electricity use is all coming from the same source so during working hours won't necessarily be off peak. This makes me think that off peak will probably be during the night and I sure as hell don't want my washing machine scheduling itself to start when I'm trying to sleep. that's fine and you'll have these options if you are a neurotic weirdo
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Jan 17, 2017 21:17
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BangersInMyKnickers posted:that's fine and you'll have these options if you are a neurotic weirdo Really though, what appliances are you happy to decide by themselves when they should run? If I turn an appliance on it's usually 'cause I need it to do its thing. I envision a world where nobody plugs their poo poo in to their smart meter and is happier for it. Then you'll get the one guy who's got all his stuff connected to it and has everything he does constantly delayed to make room for all the assholes like me who don't have time for that poo poo. I mean it's fine, but I'm just not sure it'll survive contact with reality.
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Jan 17, 2017 21:19
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Chalks posted:
how much do you really care about, say, the precise times your fridge's compressor runs (or for that matter, if it was allowed to get a degree or two warmer at peak times while still saying within the safe range for food storage)? how much would you really care if your water heater was turned down from 130 F to 120 F temporarily?
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Jan 17, 2017 21:19
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ate all the Oreos posted:are we talking about the same smart meters they're already installing, because afaik nobody's allowed to opt out of poo poo here and there were a bunch of right-wingers protesting the durned gubmint spying meters being forced on them oh! over here it's the crazy new age "green" hippies complaining about the evils of electromagnetic waves and most likely also that most monstrously conceived plot that is water fluoridation
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Jan 17, 2017 21:21
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fishmech posted:how much do you really care about, say, the precise times your fridge's compressor runs (or for that matter, if it was allowed to get a degree or two warmer at peak times while still saying within the safe range for food storage)? how much would you really care if your water heater was turned down from 130 F to 120 F temporarily? Like with spin cycle getting delayed for 15 mins little adjustments like that probably aren't much of a big deal, but that goes both ways. What percentage of my house hold electricity bill are you actually shifting around by doing this? 0.1% of my weekly usage adjusted by 15 mins feels rather minor. Also if the electricity company decides that my water should heat up more slowly than it already does then they can eat a bag of dicks because I already get pissed off with how slow it is and at the moment I only have inanimate objects and the laws of physics to direct my anger at.
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Jan 17, 2017 21:24
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lol at off peak use being done newfangled thing aus uses mains signalling the UK has had economy 7 and auto control for decades
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Jan 17, 2017 21:24
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Chalks posted:Like with spin cycle getting delayed for 15 mins little adjustments like that probably aren't much of a big deal, but that goes both ways. What percentage of my house hold electricity bill are you actually shifting around by doing this? 0.1% of my weekly usage adjusted by 15 mins feels rather minor. they add up to a ton if every single customer does them, which will never actually happen because i'm pretty sure 90% of american households can't afford or don't give a gently caress about ~smart appliances~ anyway
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Jan 17, 2017 21:27
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i think the ideal situation is where each device is coded to use an interoperable standard. this standard would expose all smart-grid functions to the resident and let them configure which actions to take in various scenariahahahah. sorry, i am skeptical that any consumer protections for this stuff will be rolled out until after everyone is hooked up to it and several major scandals have happened. im even more skeptical that appliance manufacturers, smart grid tech companies, and utilities will not use this as an excuse to build monopolies through patent licensing and other types of exclusivity deals, especially in America it would honestly be pretty nice if (e.g.) i could get a utility discount by setting my dishwasher or clothes washer to a mode like "i need this done but ill be gone for the next 6 hours" and the machine would talk to the grid to schedule a time. but with the general state of iot crap and Trump becoming president in 3 days i don't see how anything good will come of it for years
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Jan 17, 2017 21:28
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Chalks posted:Really though, what appliances are you happy to decide by themselves when they should run? If I turn an appliance on it's usually 'cause I need it to do its thing. I don't care if my fridge and freezer times its defrost cycle for off-peak. I don't care if my electric car default only charges off-peak and I have to manually override if I am in a rush. I don't care if my AC has a different setpoint for on and off-peak, and a third higher one for grid emergencies. I don't care if my washer, dryer, or washing machine delay cycles to off-peak to save me money or help load shed, and I will still have a manual override. You're tilting at windmills, man
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Jan 17, 2017 21:31
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BangersInMyKnickers posted:I don't care if my electric car default only charges off-peak and I have to manually override if I am in a rush. im the implication that you'd plan being in a rush 8 hours ahead of time to give your car enough time to charge and not just wake up one morning and notice that you can't get to work today because the power company told your car to wait to charge until tomorrow
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Jan 17, 2017 21:38
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BangersInMyKnickers posted:I don't care if my fridge and freezer times its defrost cycle for off-peak. I don't care if my electric car default only charges off-peak and I have to manually override if I am in a rush. I don't care if my AC has a different setpoint for on and off-peak, and a third higher one for grid emergencies. I don't care if my washer, dryer, or washing machine delay cycles to off-peak to save me money or help load shed, and I will still have a manual override. You're tilting at windmills, man You could make a fridge or freezer defrost over night with a clock. I just think the main benefits of having a "smart" system scheduling appliances are all things people will be irritated by. I don't see it ever being widely adopted.
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Jan 17, 2017 21:41
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ate all the Oreos posted:im the implication that you'd plan being in a rush 8 hours ahead of time to give your car enough time to charge and not just wake up one morning and notice that you can't get to work today because the power company told your car to wait to charge until tomorrow And the car would wait as long as it could but start charging in time to make the wake up call. I have the strange feeling that device manufacturers will always pick users using their device over the common good. Always. It's just people are already getting paid to shift load so why not get in on the action too Chalks posted:You could make a fridge or freezer defrost over night with a clock. Because 90% of the year it doesn't matter when your fridge cycles the compressor. But for a few hours a year coordinating it can save boatloads in electricity cost The grid is priced by a highest bid is what everyone gets paid system. So when it costs thousands of dollars to turn on some peaker for 10 minutes you're paying that rate to every single powerplant too Trabisnikof fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Jan 17, 2017 |
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Jan 17, 2017 21:44
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Trabisnikof posted:And the car would wait as long as it could but start charging in time to make the wake up call. To be fair things like hybrid/electric car chargers are a really good example of how this tech could be used. They're almost always going to need charging over night and you could stagger the charging with a networked system so that you don't get a million electric cars drawing power at 6pm. I'm still living in the stone age so I have no idea how long hybrid cars take to charge but I assume it's a short enough period that it could be meaningfully shifted around.
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Jan 17, 2017 21:47
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Chalks posted:You could make a fridge or freezer defrost over night with a clock. that's not what a defrost cycle is and you are still an idiot
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Jan 17, 2017 21:51
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But yeah smartgrid stuff is also going to be filled with secfucks
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Jan 17, 2017 21:53
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obama just commuted chelsea manning's sentence good for you obama
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Jan 17, 2017 22:53
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ate all the Oreos posted:obama just commuted chelsea manning's sentence Epic troll of Assange Barry O, good job
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Jan 17, 2017 22:58
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Chalks posted:To be fair things like hybrid/electric car chargers are a really good example of how this tech could be used. They're almost always going to need charging over night and you could stagger the charging with a networked system so that you don't get a million electric cars drawing power at 6pm. imo this is a good example of a social problem that is created by smart-grid. if total rollout of a smart grid system means all residential electric customers are forced onto plans with peak-hour incentives, this could very easily impact people of lower socioeconomic status disproportionately. like here with car charging, the typical time of day that an American automobile is sitting at home is heavily dictated by class: people who are lower-middle-class or lower are much more likely to work evenings and nights than people of higher economic status. thus without government policies (or good labor contracts, but lol on that in trump's america) that make it so these shift-workers have access to chargers at work, or like some subsidies for people to get home power-banks similar to that one tesla product, peak-hour incentive rules could quite easily push unnecessary cost onto people just because they are a nurse or whatever. i know my little scenario here rests on silly assumptions such as "electric cars will actually be commonplace at some point before climate change kills us all", but i would bet money that something like this will definitely happen in a smart grid world
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Jan 17, 2017 23:01
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Trabisnikof posted:But yeah smartgrid stuff is also going to be filled with secfucks oh yeah it's going to be a clusterfuck based on the scale of deployment alone though there are some pretty clear signs that they have learned some good lessons from all the mistakes in the scada sector and severely limiting the protocol from full control to more basic signalling should hopefully mitigate a lot of the impact.
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Jan 17, 2017 23:03
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BangersInMyKnickers posted:oh yeah it's going to be a clusterfuck based on the scale of deployment alone though there are some pretty clear signs that they have learned some good lessons from all the mistakes in the scada sector and severely limiting the protocol from full control to more basic signalling should hopefully mitigate a lot of the impact. all the people who learned from their mistakes have been replaced by cheaper people or had their jobs contracted out to whoever can deliver x, y, and z features in the fastest amount of time
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Jan 17, 2017 23:04
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Chalks posted:Like with spin cycle getting delayed for 15 mins little adjustments like that probably aren't much of a big deal, but that goes both ways. What percentage of my house hold electricity bill are you actually shifting around by doing this? 0.1% of my weekly usage adjusted by 15 mins feels rather minor. you only need to shave off or delay small amounts of power in a bunch of homes, to end up not needing to spin up peak-load-only natural gas turbine #459 on the network, and that saves the utility tens of thousands of dollars a week. maybe you should buy a new water heater if your current one's all hosed up and doesn't heat up properly? you'd need one anyway, to take advantage of the system. ate all the Oreos posted:they add up to a ton if every single customer does them, which will never actually happen because i'm pretty sure 90% of american households can't afford or don't give a gently caress about ~smart appliances~ anyway bruh, the utility companies would be giving out rebates and poo poo to do it. they already do this to get people to replace old fridges and hvac systems and other big power/gas draws with newer and more efficient ones, they already did it a lot to get people off incandescents to cfls and leds. the amount of money they spend on those rebates and subsidies is pennies compared to keeping whole power plants that cost tons of money offline as much as possible. all that has to happen is that instead of providing discounts on generic new appliance, it's generic new appliance with the control thingy.
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Jan 17, 2017 23:05
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fishmech posted:bruh, the utility companies would be giving out rebates and poo poo to do it. they already do this to get people to replace old fridges and hvac systems and other big power/gas draws with newer and more efficient ones, they already did it a lot to get people off incandescents to cfls and leds. the amount of money they spend on those rebates and subsidies is pennies compared to keeping whole power plants that cost tons of money offline as much as possible. bruh offering $50 off a $500 appliance will not get people to suddenly upgrade their appliances that have worked fine for 10 years, assuming people know about the rebate in the first place
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Jan 17, 2017 23:09
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ate all the Oreos posted:all the people who learned from their mistakes have been replaced by cheaper people or had their jobs contracted out to whoever can deliver x, y, and z features in the fastest amount of time the protocol straight up doesn't support the kinds of things that make scada super scary. its cheap poo poo by design but with the short range of the wireless signalling network and a plethora of manufacturers and models being rolled out all over the place the likelihood of a single wide-spread impact isn't that high. the intelligence lives in the device itself and I would liken it to the appliance hearing a tornado siren and then deciding what to do, if anything, in response. this is not traditional command and control
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Jan 17, 2017 23:10
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BangersInMyKnickers posted:the protocol straight up doesn't support the kinds of things that make scada super scary. its cheap poo poo by designs but with the short range of the wireless signalling network and a plethora of manufacturers and models being rolled out all over the place the likelihood of a single wide-spread impact isn't that high. the intelligence lives in the device itself and I would liken it to the appliance hearing a tornado siren and then deciding what to do, if anything, in response. this is not traditional command and control the protocol undoubtably supports buffer overflows once implemented which means it supports basically everything
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Jan 17, 2017 23:11
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which protocols are they actually using? zigbee? Lora? something else?
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Jan 17, 2017 23:13
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Loving Africa Chaps posted:Epic troll of Assange Barry O, good job https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/819630102787059713
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Jan 17, 2017 23:14
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Loving Africa Chaps posted:Epic troll of Assange Barry O, good job Yesss. Reminder: https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/819630102787059713 Well mr assflange, time to put your money where your flange is. e:f;b
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Jan 17, 2017 23:15
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spankmeister posted:Yesss. Um I clearly said clemency but what actually happened was sentence commuting therefore it doesn't count 
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Jan 17, 2017 23:18
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BangersInMyKnickers posted:that's not what a defrost cycle is and you are still an idiot Alright angry about fridges guy, relax. I don't see what a smart network could tell my fridge about off peak hours that a clock telling it when it's 1 am couldn't.
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Jan 17, 2017 23:22
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ate all the Oreos posted:bruh offering $50 off a $500 appliance will not get people to suddenly upgrade their appliances that have worked fine for 10 years, assuming people know about the rebate in the first place except they do. people do upgrade their appliances fairly often, across the customer base of a large utility. and getting an offer of a rebate (or in some cases, especially hvac systems, payment towards costs of install as well as a rebate and ongoing monthly bill price cuts) is enough to push people to do it earlier. you don't everyone to do it in a single year or whatever.
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Jan 17, 2017 23:28
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ate all the Oreos posted:the protocol undoubtably supports buffer overflows once implemented which means it supports basically everything did you even think through this attack scenario or just mash your rear end on the keyboard until words came out? you have two realistic attack scenarios: either you send valid signaling to manipulate the response to signalling of devices or your attack them to modify the hardware to do something new. either way, you first need to compromise the meter network. Not impossible, sometimes relatively easy depending on how lovely the utility did their deployment, but you're going to leave a lot of evidence sitting around so cover your tracks real good on that. you're not going to blast malicious zigbee traffic directly to the devices for more than a few blocks without erecting a massive, easy to find mast. Okay, now you're on the zigbee network. Great. Good Job! So now you're lie to devices and tell them that either the peak/off-peak rates are inverted to generate extra load on peak so the utility has to fire up more peaking plants or buy off adjacent regions which costs them money and pisses them off, or maybe you put everyone's house in rolling brownout mode so all their AC dials back and the drier stops or something and you... minorly inconvenience people? Or perhaps you are the ultra l33t hacker and find a vuln in their zigbee code that allows for arbitrary execution or firmware re-write in which case how many devices do you really think you have a chance of effecting at once? are you going to be able to actually do anything with the device or just brick it? every manufacturer, model, and model year of device presents another fragmentation point that makes widespread compromise not very realistic. and then you have to consider exactly how they integrate the zigbee radio and internal controls that can limit its ability to interact with the control logic of the device which would often make that type of attack impossible hobbesmaster posted:which protocols are they actually using? zigbee? Lora? something else? a smartgrid variant of the zigbee spec for everything past the meter from what I have seen on everything. utility to the meter is either some kind of signaling over the mains, embedded cell, or some kind of wireless scada signaling (bad bad bad).
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Jan 17, 2017 23:32
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Do CANBUS next!
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Jan 17, 2017 23:35
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