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Dead Reckoning posted:You're kind of explicitly minimizing agency in your last two lines there. Even the most resigned individual can tell the difference between civilians and soldiers, and taking a bunch of civilians with you in order to spice up your suicide-by-cop is wrong no matter how much you try to equivocate. Sometimes I wonder if there's a gene that makes people interpret understanding as approval.
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Jan 18, 2017 11:21
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Higsian posted:Sometimes I wonder if there's a gene that makes people interpret understanding as approval. Careful there, and stay safe.
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Jan 18, 2017 11:30
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Higsian posted:Sometimes I wonder if there's a gene that makes people interpret understanding as approval. One of the chief functions of moral reasoning is to avoid dealing with the real world when reality threatens to return an uncomfortable judgement. Israel kills thousands of civilians in response to gently caress all - unfortunate, but if you consider the precise intentional state of each pilot and order you'll see that none of the deaths count, even though it was 100% known that the deaths would happen. Israel grinds a population under its heel for decades with murder, brutality and humiliation - unfortunate, but if you consider this particular act by a palestinian, and make sure to accord him his full Agency of course, we're not racist, can't you see that this was a wrong act?
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Jan 18, 2017 13:29
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Dead Reckoning posted:You're kind of explicitly minimizing agency in your last two lines there. Even the most resigned individual can tell the difference between civilians and soldiers, and taking a bunch of civilians with you in order to spice up your suicide-by-cop is wrong no matter how much you try to equivocate. Lmao you loving coward
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Jan 18, 2017 14:33
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Just admit you want the brownskins to get murdered with no recourse
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Jan 18, 2017 14:34
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corn in the bible posted:Just admit you want the brownskins to get murdered with no recourse I don't think DR hates brown people, he's just, in the truest definition of the term, an authoritarian bootlicker.
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Jan 18, 2017 14:37
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You see, after ALL the Palestinians die, Israel shall leave them alone at last
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Jan 18, 2017 14:44
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Sinteres posted:So this seems like a pretty big deal. Fatah and Hamas met in Moscow and agreed to form a unity government. Unity governments have happened a few times before, and usually don't last long because the factions hate each other with an unending fury, but there's a few interesting things about this one. First of all, usually a unity government is preceded by the threat to form a unity government, because Fatah knows Israel absolutely does not want a unity government and threatening to do it is a lot easier than actually doing it. This time it came out of nowhere, while Israel and the US were busy making a fuss about the Paris peace conference. Second of all, Russia seems to have played a major role in setting up and mediating this agreement; Russia-Palestine relations have been quietly warming over the last few years, but it's a surprise to see them walking onto the stage and taking the initiative from the US and Europe. Third of all, Islamic Jihad was invited to this meeting and involved in the negotiations, which is not a good sign for conditions on the ground because it means they're significant enough and powerful enough that the two major factions couldn't not invite them.
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Jan 18, 2017 14:59
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You're gonna have to clarify *which* Islamic Jihad attended those talks because if I recall correctly during the occupation of beirut/south lebanon a number of assassinations/kidnappings were credited to Islamic Jihad but were if anything the work of hezbollah/god knows which splinter faction of druze/christian/orthodox/sunni/shia militiamen.
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Jan 18, 2017 19:00
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-K5tJ2w6MSIquote:Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said a local man sped toward the forces deployed to Umm al-Hiran early Wednesday as they were securing the area ahead of the planned home demolitions. Hint: look for the muzzle flashes
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Jan 18, 2017 21:13
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Yeah that definitely looks like they just shot some random guy driving by and called it an attack after he lost control of the vehicle.
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Jan 18, 2017 22:17
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Many of the attacks in this alleged third intifada have had the characteristics of a suicide-by-cop, in my opinion. That's what a bunch of attacks on IDF/checkpoint guards have been for virtually ever. Some young person who's spent their whole life already in a big cage, that wants a way out and knows they can easily get it by walking toward one of the guards with a pair of scissors. Because by this point it's not even a question of what they're gonna do, they're not gonna use some krav maga or try to incapacitate you, that might be even a little bit dangerous, they're gonna mow you down and if a bunch of the people still locked up rattle the cage, they're gonna have the government and population doing their hardest to give them a pass anyway. Yardbomb fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Jan 18, 2017 |
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Jan 18, 2017 22:50
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Nevvy Z posted:Yeah that definitely looks like they just shot some random guy driving by and called it an attack after he lost control of the vehicle. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsQkH1E1klw You can't really see anything in this video but I feel that the audio really tells the whole story.
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Jan 18, 2017 23:33
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Cat Mattress posted:If we were talking about, say, North Korea, it'd be something else. North Koreans don't have much choice in what their country does. But Israeli is a democracy (the only democracy in the middle east, a light unto nations) and therefore the Israeli policies of constant, brutal, relentless oppression are the will of the Israeli people and therefore Israeli citizens are fully responsible for the treatment of Palestinians. What is happening is what they want to happen. Israel is what the Israeli want it to be -- and they want it to be a brutal Apartheid state built on racism and religious fundamentalism. Friendly Humour posted:Pointing out the consequences of Israeli governnment policy of disenfranchisement and oppressive apartheid colonialism has nothing to do with agency. Israelis have no right to act surprised about any of this when it's the decades of State policy that has made ordinary people crack up and lash out. Say it's wrong all you want, it's still going to keep happening so long as nothing changes. emanresu tnuocca posted:Many of the attacks in this alleged third intifada have had the characteristics of a suicide-by-cop, in my opinion. Higsian posted:Sometimes I wonder if there's a gene that makes people interpret understanding as approval. I get it, I understand why people don't want to acknowledge the fundamental immorality of Palestinian violence; they think it distracts from what they feel is more significant Israeli wrongdoing, and acknowledging that some of the arguments that the Israeli right uses to justify their policies would muddle the moral absolutism with which most people prefer to frame the issue.
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Jan 18, 2017 23:39
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I don't think you understand how populations of humans work. If you put a population under the sort of circumstances Israel puts Palestinians under, it is inevitable that extremism against the oppressing nation (and its people) will arise and that some people will end up choosing violence. This is very predictable. You're not going to stop literally all Palestinian violence by just saying "stop that!" if you don't change Israeli behavior first. I don't think anyone is actually arguing that Palestinian terror attacks are a good thing. Just that they're a natural result when a population is treated in the way Palestinians are.
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Jan 18, 2017 23:55
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Dead Reckoning posted:Suicide-by-cop is when you antagonize the police into killing you. What these Palestinians are doing is murdering as many civilians as possible in order to terrorize them. There's been several incidents where palestinians were shot for waving a knife or some other pointed object towards soldiers, many of which were discussed itt as they happened including at least one case where months after the shooting the police itself made a statement that the woman who was shot was in fact previously diagnosed with suicidal tendencies and that she was determined to have attempted to provoke the soldiers and made no attempt to attack them. If you need more examples several months ago at the Qalanswa checkpoint two palestinian siblings approached the checkpoint guards (they're actually not soldiers but are hired civilians) when the sister drew a knife and waved it in the air both siblings were shot on the spot. According to eye witnesses (the security footage was never released) when the sister pulled the knife out her brother started pulling her back and shouting at her and even attempted to disarm her. In addition there are really several cases where palestinians attacked armed soldiers (and not lone ones) with knives, in this case you could argue it was a genuine attack which can't be considered a suicide by cop but I think it's very fair to argue that people committing these acts are likely to already be prone to suicidal behavior. emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 12:22 on Jan 19, 2017 |
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Jan 19, 2017 00:00
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Dead Reckoning posted:Do you understand how monstrous this argument is? The majority of people in the Gaza Strip voted for a Hamas government, which is literally a terrorist group dedicated to the violent destruction of Israel. By your logic, Israel would be fully justified in targeting the population of Gaza for supporting violence against Israeli civilians. There is a reason that every strain of international law and norms that address the issue prohibits targeting civilians as a means of punishing them for the decisions of elected officials. That's not his argument, don't be an idiot and argue against strawmen just because you don't want to respond to what someone said. At no point in Cat Matress's post does he condone violence against civilians (moral culpability is not the same as being a legitimate military target) and if you check his post before this one he in fact states "They deserve being stabbed as much as the Palestinians deserve being oppressed" which draws a clear equivalence where both types of acts are wrong - albeit the one act being spontaneous violence by individuals and the other act being the government sponsored oppression of an entire national group.. quote:Framing the Palestinians' actions as disconnected "consequences" is either denying their agency, or attempting to excuse their murder of civilians by obscuring their choice. You're basically saying, "If Israeli civilians don't want to get killed, they should stop pissing off people who kill civilians." It's victim blaming. It's not victim blaming. The victims on the Israeli side are individual citizens. The blame being cast is at the Israeli government and the IDF. Individual citizens =/= The Israeli government. Not only that but crying out about agency is nonsense. People have agency. They also aren't robotic logic machines completely disconnected from the society that they inhabit and the events that effect them. These Palestinians aren't springing fully formed from the desert sand and stabbing random Israelis, they're formed by years of oppression. Let me offer an analogy. If after years of bullying a normal western student snapped and badly hurt the person bullying them, we would say that their actions were wrong and they shouldn't have done it. However we would also recognise that the years of bullying were themselves wrong and were a factor in pushing the student towards this act. If we wanted to seriously deal with the issue in the future to stop it reoccuring, one of the key things would be to stop bullying. Similarly though the knife attacks on civilians are wrong regardless of the other factors involved, they are also a predictable consequence of decades of ethnic cleansing, murder, torture, imprisonment without trial, etc and to stop the attacks Israel must stop its own war crimes and human rights abuses. quote:Suicide-by-cop is when you antagonize the police into killing you. What these Palestinians are doing is murdering as many civilians as possible in order to terrorize them. They're not mutually exclusive. Also don't talk in absolutes when it isn't the case. Some of the attacks, albeit a minority, have been against Israeli soldiers, who would be considered legitimate military targets. quote:It's pretty obvious that I'm not conflating understanding with moral justification. No, it's pretty obvious that's what you're doing and you've done it in this very post, see the very first quote I respond to. You castigate Cat Mattress and say that by his logic "Israel would be fully justified in targeting the population of Gaza for supporting violence against Israeli civilians". The problem is, he doesn't make that case at any point in his argument. Disagree? Then quote the relevant part of the post where he did that. You can't because it doesn't exist.
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Jan 19, 2017 00:07
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Dead Reckoning posted:Do you understand how monstrous this argument is? The majority of people in the Gaza Strip voted for a Hamas government, which is literally a terrorist group dedicated to the violent destruction of Israel. By your logic, Israel would be fully justified in targeting the population of Gaza for supporting violence against Israeli civilians. There is a reason that every strain of international law and norms that address the issue prohibits targeting civilians as a means of punishing them for the decisions of elected officials. The Likud government is literally a terrorist group dedicated to the violent destruction of Palestine. Before it was called Likud, it was called Herut. And before it was called Herut, it was called Irgun. Several Israeli prime ministers have been violent terrorist leaders, such as Yitzhak Shamir who ordered the murder of Folke Bernadotte, and Menachem Begin, who ordered the Deir Yassin massacre. These terrorists are beloved heroes of Israel, and their actions are seen with patriotic pride. And Israel does feel fully justified in targeting the population of Gaza for any reason they want, and every western leader cheers them on when they do. There is a reason why Israeli goes on a temper tantrum whenever the issue of applying international law and norms to them is raised. I could also mention that the elections in Gaza cannot be expected to be held, due to various circumstances which largely stem from the oppression they face, to the same standards of transparency and honesty that those of the elections in the Only Democracy In The Middle East, Light Unto Nations. So Gaza's population is less clearly responsible for a Hamas government than Israel's population is responsible for a Likud government.
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Jan 19, 2017 01:41
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Ytlaya posted:I don't think you understand how populations of humans work. If you put a population under the sort of circumstances Israel puts Palestinians under, it is inevitable that extremism against the oppressing nation (and its people) will arise and that some people will end up choosing violence. This is very predictable. You're not going to stop literally all Palestinian violence by just saying "stop that!" if you don't change Israeli behavior first. You know that people use the exact same logic to defend Israeli war campaigns, right? Collective punishment is never justified, end of story, no need for qualification. It's a complex loving issue, and I sure as poo poo hope Bibi rots in jail, and a centrist government takes its place. Let's see how the PA reacts if the ball is seemingly in their court.
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Jan 19, 2017 03:22
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People who earnestly use the phrase, 'by your logic' deserve to be imprisoned. Oh also I think the country that boasts it's compulsory military service and has a demonstrable tendency to devalue and destroy the lives of the native population is way more loving culpable than some rotting strand full of corpses and rubble piles full of traumatized civilians.
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Jan 19, 2017 03:23
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The apartheid apologist has mastered the art of repeating himself. But whatever, I don't care about what you think I'm saying about agency or morality, because all I've ever talked about is the fact that knife attacks against Israelis both civilian and soldier is a thing that is going to keep happening until Israelis change the way they think, act and vote. African anti-apartheid rebels killed a lot of civilians indiscriminately too, and it kept happening until white Africans changed the way they thought, acted and voted. So keep harping on about that morality thing, I'm sure it makes you feel really good to be the victim when you're actually the oppressor. But all the same, the war will continue, the blood will flow and you'll choke on it. Cheers!
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Jan 19, 2017 03:44
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the act of resisting imperialist oppression can never be immoral, hth
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Jan 19, 2017 04:40
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Friendly Humour posted:African anti-apartheid rebels killed a lot of civilians indiscriminately too, and it kept happening until white Africans changed the way they thought, acted and voted. South Africa was only able to relatively peacefully move to fully democratic elections in 1994 because the ANC was openly and publicly committed to peaceful coexistence with their oppressors. Without that commitment to peace, South Africa would have been engulfed in a brutal civil war (Rhodesia style) and I doubt I would be then be able to be typing this post had that happened. The progress to peace required years of negotiations and talks between F.W De Klerk and Nelson Mandela who both shared a vision of how they could coexist with each other, peacefully. This is not a moral judgement but simply an objective observation of what was required for South Africa to relatively peaceful move towards a democratic government. /goes back to lurking
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Jan 19, 2017 06:41
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BattleMoose posted:South Africa was only able to relatively peacefully move to fully democratic elections in 1994 because the ANC was openly and publicly committed to peaceful coexistence with their oppressors. Without that commitment to peace, South Africa would have been engulfed in a brutal civil war (Rhodesia style) and I doubt I would be then be able to be typing this post had that happened. The progress to peace required years of negotiations and talks between F.W De Klerk and Nelson Mandela who both shared a vision of how they could coexist with each other, peacefully. This is not a moral judgement but simply an objective observation of what was required for South Africa to relatively peaceful move towards a democratic government. Sure, but the only thing that brought the apartheid government to that line of thinking was the violent terrorism. Do you think they'd have been as willing if Mandela asked really nicely instead of blowing poo poo up?
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Jan 19, 2017 07:32
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i walk bare-assed through the burning winds
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Jan 19, 2017 08:35
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Kim Jong Il posted:You know that people use the exact same logic to defend Israeli war campaigns, right? Collective punishment is never justified, end of story, no need for qualification. ...no? I mean, they use the logic, but it's wrong. On one hand you have a conscious decision being made by a single government that effectively holds all the power in the relationship (this is the important part), on the other hand you have a small portion of millions of people committing violence in response to oppression of the greater group. Groups in the same situation as Palestinians generally react in similar ways, but governments aren't somehow forced by the groups they oppress to oppress them, how in the world does that even make sense? And the Israeli government isn't personally affected in any meaningful sense by Palestinian violence, while virtually every Palestinian is affected by the Israeli government in a tangible way. Also stuff like motive actually does matter, and crimes committed under "understandable" circumstances are indeed often treated with more leniency than those with "no excuse" (so to speak). This doesn't mean the crimes are condoned, but they are not all treated the same just because "well killing is killing, doesn't matter how many people or why someone did it." I mean, I get what you're trying to argue here, but it's pretty obvious that there's a different standard of responsibility for one's actions depending upon the circumstances and that "minority of a group oppressed by another group lashing out" is not remotely the same as "the government with power doing the oppressing." Clearly the South African government somehow managed to end Apartheid, while you'd be hard pressed to find a group equivalent to the Palestinians who magically perfectly and permanently policed their community into committing literally no violence.
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Jan 19, 2017 09:17
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Sometimes when the more pro-israeli posters make an appearance in this thread and they mention palestinians it's almost like they've never spoken to a single loving one of them because they're always abstracted and compartmentalized into some sort of ideal and not a human being in any meaningful sense of the word. Palestinians are not machines designed to explode at a set destination just like muslims in general are not machines who pray 5 times a day and abstain from alcohol/pork or whatever. Consider the situation of house demolitions. Do you appreciate how quickly a person's concerns can go from "what's on tv tonight?" to "where can i sleep tonight without freezing/being raped"? Because if you don't then you've got a serious loving problem and expecting benevolence and even-handedness from people who've had to watch friends and family get abducted in the middle of the night/imprisoned for years/straight up murdered is just insipid.
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Jan 19, 2017 13:20
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I maintain that myself and the other leftist israelis who post itt are actually the most pro-israeli posters around and part of it is also due to the fact that we do not dehumanize Palestinians. It's a matter of perspective though I guess. I don't think that pro-occupation and IDF brutality apologists are pro-Israel at all, perhaps they're just anti-Palestinian. I don't know.
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Jan 19, 2017 13:42
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Consider the perspective of the opposite side. It's theoretically possible that the vast majority of immigrants to Israel - from France, Russia, India, Ethiopia and the United States - are powered by a lust for Palestinian blood and land. Alternately, you might believe them - or, if you haven't talked to many Israeli Jews, believe in the me who believes in them - that since the vast majority of them know people who were on the wrong side of a terrorist attack (if not outright killed by one), the increased Jewish support for right-wing policies is a result of being sold on increased oppression as a legitimate and necessary tactic to ensure their safety, and the safety of their loved ones. As someone who lives here, I can't emphasize how fundamental "the peace process did not lead to peace, so war is our only recourse" is to right-wing justification. Which in turn emphasizes just how facile the "Palestinians get oppressed regardless of whether or not they engage in terrorist attacks" argument is. Possibly even more facile than "it's just a series of suicide attacks by people driven to extremes, I've never heard of any official Fatah / Hamas support". Xander77 fucked around with this message at 14:25 on Jan 19, 2017 |
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Jan 19, 2017 14:14
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Xander77 posted:Consider the perspective of the opposite side. It's theoretically possible that the vast majority of immigrants to Israel - from France, Russia, India, Ethiopia and the United States - are powered by a lust for Palestinian blood and land. You can justify and understand both sides of this war, but that doesn't change the fact that Palestinians do not have the power to change the dynamic that leads to this violence. Only the Israeli voters do. And so if as you say, Israeli jews largely feel that they are the powerless victims in this relationship, the war will not ever end. You will keep killing each other (or rather, Israelis keep killing Palestinians) until the war again escalates into an intifada and forces the surrounding Muslim states to intervene again. Your war is far, far beyond the point where appeal to justice carries any weight as an argument.
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Jan 19, 2017 15:13
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Friendly Humour posted:You can justify and understand both sides of this war, but that doesn't change the fact that Palestinians do not have the power to change the dynamic that leads to this violence. Only the Israeli voters do. And so if as you say, Israeli jews largely feel that they are the powerless victims in this relationship, the war will not ever end. You will keep killing each other (or rather, Israelis keep killing Palestinians) until the war again escalates into an intifada and forces the surrounding Muslim states to intervene again. Your war is far, far beyond the point where appeal to justice carries any weight as an argument. If the Palestinians are waiting for intervention by Israel's neighbors, they're going to be waiting a long time. Sanctions by the West are a much bigger threat to the Israeli right than any of their neighbors.
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Jan 19, 2017 15:28
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Friendly Humour posted:You can justify and understand both sides of this war, but that doesn't change the fact that Palestinians do not have the power to change the dynamic that leads to this violence. Only the Israeli voters do. And so if as you say, Israeli jews largely feel that they are the powerless victims in this relationship, the war will not ever end. You will keep killing each other (or rather, Israelis keep killing Palestinians) until the war again escalates into an intifada and forces the surrounding Muslim states to intervene again. Your war is far, far beyond the point where appeal to justice carries any weight as an argument. The Palestinians could elect officials that are clearly committed to a peaceful resolution of the conflict, accept the existence of Israel without preconditions and condemn all acts of violence and persecute every individual supporting these acts of violence.
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Jan 19, 2017 15:40
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GaussianCopula posted:The Palestinians could elect officials that are clearly committed to a peaceful resolution of the conflict, accept the existence of Israel without preconditions and condemn all acts of violence and persecute every individual supporting these acts of violence. Are you claiming that the Palestinians (using this as a group term is never going to work because everyone has extremists but for argument's sake) not doing any of these things is grounds for the oppression that they're currently facing? You can argue about their leadership, but in my experience Palestinians think of the existence of Israel as a forgone conclusion at this point anyway, and the vast majority of them don't want war, they just want to live their lives without being scared about being detained without trial or shot at for no reason.
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Jan 19, 2017 15:45
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GaussianCopula posted:The Palestinians could elect officials that are clearly committed to a peaceful resolution of the conflict, accept the existence of Israel without preconditions and condemn all acts of violence and persecute every individual supporting these acts of violence. Sounds to me me like this young fella one Mr. Mahmoud Abbas, perhaps some day he'll get elected, who knows.
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Jan 19, 2017 15:46
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Miftan posted:You can argue about their leadership, but in my experience Palestinians think of the existence of Israel as a forgone conclusion at this point anyway, and the vast majority of them don't want war, they just want to live their lives without being scared about being detained without trial or shot at for no reason. That's why I'm talking about elected officials. If you want to live in peace, maybe don't elect these guys http://hamas.ps/ar/
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Jan 19, 2017 16:01
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GaussianCopula posted:The Palestinians could elect officials that are clearly committed to a peaceful resolution of the conflict, accept the existence of Israel without preconditions and condemn all acts of violence and persecute every individual supporting these acts of violence. That's not going to change anything. The Israelis are going to be the ones with all the power in this relationship, Palestinian electoral decisions do not change the fact. lollontee fucked around with this message at 16:08 on Jan 19, 2017 |
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Jan 19, 2017 16:06
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Nice to see the "palestinians shuld recognise israel" bullshit still being trotted around. It's been what, twenty years since Oslo accords? Just gently caress off with this already.
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Jan 19, 2017 16:14
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Friendly Humour posted:Nice to see the "palestinians shuld recognise israel" bullshit still being trotted around. It's been what, twenty years since Oslo accords? Just gently caress off with this already. Bush's decision to try democracy in Palestine and inadvertently empower Hamas was genuinely catastrophic to Palestinian statehood. It provided Israel with a decade's worth of excuses.
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Jan 19, 2017 16:18
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Complaining about palestinian leadership makes me wonder just what it is you think palestinian leaders are capable of. Does the PA/Hamas issue permits and ID cards and man extensive checkpoints/outposts like how israel is currently doing? Other than threatening to retire what else could Abbas even do at this point? He's a convenient scapegoat because every time the PA fucks up people can point to the fact that he's outlasted his term by like 5 years or whatever and by extension not the true representative of the political will of palestinians. Another major factor to the general shittiness/corruption of palestinian politicians is that the israeli govt. makes life very hard for people with educations either indirectly through bureaucratic bullshit like refusing to allow west bank residents from returning to their homes after say, attending an overseas seminar or just blowing off their legs with car bombs and calling them terrorists post-mortem.
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Jan 19, 2017 16:33
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Xander77 posted:Consider the perspective of the opposite side. It's theoretically possible that the vast majority of immigrants to Israel - from France, Russia, India, Ethiopia and the United States - are powered by a lust for Palestinian blood and land. "The peace process did not lead to peace, so war is our only recourse" is certainly the keystone of the conflict right now, because it applies on both sides. The peace process has been dead for twenty years, the Oslo Accords are essentially a zombie that has had its soul sucked out, and the legitimacy and credibility of the factions pushing for peaceful negotiation have seriously degraded as a result of their consistent failure to attain even the promise of meaningful improvements. Meanwhile far more Palestinians know someone who has been abused or killed by Israeli action than vice versa. The status quo is unacceptable to the Israeli people, the Palestinian people, and both Palestinian governments...but it's perfectly acceptable to the Likud government, since the actual risk the Palestinians pose to their government is far smaller than the domestic shake-up that a peace deal might cause. The vast majority of Israeli Jews may not care one way or the other about the Palestinians, but thanks to the fragility of Israel's governing coalition and the divisiveness of Israeli government, the factions that hate Palestinians have political power and influence far beyond what their actual numbers and representation would suggest. Its the same reason Haredi rule the roost even though they're outnumbered by secular Jews: Likud refuses to let the Left and the Arabs into the government, and without that sizable chunk of the Knesset, the only way he can gather enough seats to form a ruling coalition is if he brings in right-wing extremist parties, who are then able to demand disproportionate concessions because they know they can topple the government at any time. Demanding full nonviolence (including from private citizens with no state ties) from a much weaker country while letting your own citizens run wild against them and then using any violent incident as an excuse to cut back privileges, steal land, or launch an invasion is an imperial tactic that goes back centuries - because it always works in the end. It's been used all over the globe. Maintaining a 0% violent crime rate for an indefinite period of time is unrealistic even for strong states whose law enforcement hasn't been kneecapped by imperialist treaties limiting their jurisdiction. It's an impossible requirement, doomed to fail eventually. If it does manage to work for any length of time, the imperial power just abuses that limited jurisdiction to start more and more blatantly violating the rights of border communities until they finally provoke a response from private citizens, which is then used as justification. In some cases, occasionally an incident gets fabricated, either by the imperial power or by the private citizens who so often form the extremist vanguard of colonial expansion.
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Jan 19, 2017 16:38
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