|
None of the armies are consistent since they tend to have many different painters. It's cool actually since you get a lot of painting ideas. That IF would look amazing with some black bits dusted in warm grey.
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2017 22:34
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 16, 2024 20:27 |
|
|
BULBASAUR posted:One thing to add- there currently is a cap of 7 AP per game. You can generate more in a game to carry over, but you can only ever use 7 (3 from your hero + 2x2 for each leader)
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2017 22:37
|
|
|
Mango Polo posted:None of the armies are consistent since they tend to have many different painters. It's cool actually since you get a lot of painting ideas. Book 3 has a ton of black on the IF example schemes. I want to try working some of that in.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2017 22:40
|
|
|
Mango Polo posted:"Come brothers, today we ride aboard the Terr Anus! Together we shall be the mighty sword that plunges deep into the darkest and most vile recesses of the enemy!" God drat it i need those storm shields now!
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2017 02:57
|
|
|
Here's that Victory is Vengeance hero role effort post I mentioned earlier: Between Forge World's official stuff in book III, Adepticon's event documents, and BULBASAUR's house rules, I've collected three sets of hero roles to compare. They are as follows: Forge World posted:Paragon Adepticon posted:Paragon BULBASAUR posted:Paragon I like the secondary goals included in Adepticon's and BULBASAUR's versions, but I think Forge World's version of Slayer is pretty spot-on. So let's take a look at some specific roles, in no particular order: * Duellist Forge World's version is basically a worse version of Slayer and Adepticon's ruleset dropped it entirely. BULBASAUR tried to make it more of a finesse class, but precision strikes/shots aren't built into characters anymore. Only the Vigilator gets precision shots so the edited version of the class is not that useful. * Strategist The three versions have the same basic goal (using a hero for their leadership) and I think I like BULBASAUR'S version the best. It gives the hero something to do other than be a leadership bubble and promotes objectives. This variant would suffer in a mission focused around kill points, but them's the breaks. * Marksman I prefer the edited versions over Forge World's. You're pretty much guaranteed to hit with a BS5 consul and you're going to get 6 ranged kills, tops, if everything goes your way. Tossing a few more AP in as a reward seems fair. Definitely a good choice for a vigilator. * Paragon I am not a fan of this role. I think Martyr accomplishes a similar goal while doing it in a simpler way. Both put your hero's dumb rear end out front to take hits. * Slayer I'd rather see this tied to kills, as in Forge World's and Adepticon's rules, rather than hits, as in BULBASAUR's. Characters can only kill models they're in base to base with and if this role is based around hits, you can get like 4-5 AP from trashing one poor mook. I'd definitely keep the bonus for sweeping advances though the number of AP gained is up in the air. I feel like our best bet here is to mash some of these rulesets together and drop a class here or there. Duellist is #1 on the chopping block for me. I think that's enough for now. Action Points are a discussion for another day.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2017 06:51
|
|
|
I'll keep the floor open, but I wanted to add that my revision's goal was to balance the choices out a bit more and to create new ones that support other styles of play. I found the default FW rules too imbalanced and Adepticon's version too limited. For example I created Duelist for the Vigilator or Scout Sergeants. I ran this several times inside a 5 man Ad-Hoc Seeker squad. If I wanted to generate points, I could rapid fire the unit and expect 2 AP from the shooting. Or I could use the AP2 ammo with shred for a lesser chance to get the AP, but a higher chance to pop an enemy character. Compare this to Marksman, which is a safe bet of ~1.5 AP each turn if you have BS5. One is higher risk and reward, while the other is safer and more consistent. I think we could easily roll a few of these together, but I'd like to keep multiple styles of play in mind. Maybe the right way to do this is to map out all the hero choices (there are probably 20 in total, across all the books) and then group them into categories. We can then look at each category and assign/balance a hero role around the units inside. Working backwards and all that.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2017 07:42
|
|
|
There's a foundational question that needs to be asked, since all of the Hero Roles make assumptions about it, and that is: About how many Action Points should be gained over the course of an average 4-6 turn game? About how many should be spent vs rolled over? FW's rules intend that the amount of AP Heroes generate and spend should vary by role, since some Roles take more risks than others, but all types should have roughly the same amounts left over at the end of the game--campaigns shouldn't have some Heroes hulking out significantly faster than others. I agree that different Roles should generally be able to advance at the same rate, but I think trying to build experience into the roles, in the form of potential AP excess, is probably too tricky to be worth it. Personally, I would like frontline Heroes to earn and spend 1.5-2 AP on the average turn, with as few as 0.75 for risk-free Roles and as many as 3 for characters who are constantly on their own (like Bulbasaur's Gladiator). Sulecrist fucked around with this message at 14:14 on Jan 17, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2017 13:58
|
|
|
Here are my feelings regarding the original 6 roles. I've played 30-40 game with the FW rules and Adepticon modifications, but never with the Adepticon roles or any of Bulbasaur's house rules. The following preferences assume some kind of constant AP pool cap, but not a game limit. I have thoughts regarding advancement but I'd like to agree on pool cap first. Paragon (Bulbasaur): Gain 1 Action Point at the end of the controlling player’s movement phase for each enemy unit this Hero is the closest model to. Gain an additional 2 Action Points if this model is at least 6” away from any friendly model. (S: I really LIKE this role, and I think it goes toward Bulbasaur's playstyle comment. It lets you play an Astartes character like they're depicted in the books, leading the dick-kicking from the front. Assuming there's a reasonable pool cap limit, there's still a high risk of death, but it's something that can be played around rather than completely negated (as it is in FW's rules) or essentially limited to 1-2 Movement phases per game (as I think it might be with Bulbasaur's AP game cap). Slayer (FW): Gain 1 Action Point for each enemy model removed as a casualty due to an attack made by this Hero. This includes any models removed as part of a sweeping advance made by this Hero or his unit. (S: agree with Safety Factor) Strategist (Bulbasaur, modified): Gain 1 Action Point whenever this Hero or another friendly model within 6" of him rolls and passes a Strength, Morale, Initiative, Leadership, Pinning Test, or successfully regroups. Gain an additional 3 Action Points at the end of the controlling player’s turn if the Hero or the Hero’s unit holds or contests an objective. (S: I like the versatility and content of Bulbasaur's idea here, but I don't want to over-incentivize ad hoc squads.) Marksman (Bulbasaur) Gain 1 Action Point at the end of the Shooting Phase if this hero has made at least one successful To Hit roll. Gain an additional 2 Action Points at the end of the Shooting Phase if this Hero has removed any enemy models as a casualty. (S: agree with Safety Factor.) Martyr (FW, modified) At the end of each player's turn, gain 1 Action Point for each hit inflicted on this Hero during that turn. In addition, if this Hero is removed as a casualty, gain an additional 2 Action points. (S: I've played with or against the original Martyr in 20+ games and really enjoyed the feel of him, but it was broken because there was no AP limit and the Martyr could spend the same AP he gained to constantly reroll saves and/or gain Eternal Warrior. An AP pool cap plus delayed adds a huge amount of reward in exchange for a huge amount of risk.) Duelist (FW+Bulbasaur, modified) Gain 1 Action Point for each enemy model in Close Combat with this character at the end of any initiative step in which the character fights. Immediately gain an additional 2 Action Points for each wound (saved or otherwise) inflicted by this Hero on an enemy character. (S: Bulbasaur's unit-wide benefits seem, to me, incompatible with the theme of Duelist. So, I pulled Bulbasaur's Gladiator concept to FW's original role rules. If Bulbasaur wants to keep the squad-director feel, I think those benefits should be rolled into Strategist and/or Marksman).
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2017 15:24
|
|
|
So is Scoria really as scary on the table as he is on paper, because wow. He looks like a beast of a character.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2017 16:16
|
|
|
SteelMentor posted:So is Scoria really as scary on the table as he is on paper, because wow. He looks like a beast of a character. Yes.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2017 16:19
|
|
|
SteelMentor posted:So is Scoria really as scary on the table as he is on paper, because wow. He looks like a beast of a character. Yep. There's a big caveat though. He's very tough and he ignores a lot of defenses. He deals with vehicles, primarchs and other deathstar-leaders. His various traits are all very useful and synergize extremelly well with Cybernetica's rules and units. His Haemonculex pet project is cute, in a distraction carnifex type of way. He is comparatively cheap and overshadows every other named Taghmata HQ (it's a very low bar though). But he's on foot. If you want him to get anywhere, you'll need a Triaros or Macrocarid, neither of which is an assault vehicle and both of which cost a lotta points. And robots can't tag in a transport. Mango Polo fucked around with this message at 16:26 on Jan 17, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2017 16:23
|
|
|
SteelMentor posted:So is Scoria really as scary on the table as he is on paper, because wow. He looks like a beast of a character. To add to what others are saying, he's literally the best duelist in the game. He beats everyone, including Primarchs, and including Horus.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2017 16:50
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2017 16:53
|
|
|
Always be smiling like Scoria even during the tough times like for example when you are imprisoned down into the darkest pits of your planet and forcefully interrogated for your knowledge because one day you'll be free and you'll kill everyone with your heretical machines and you'll drag an entire planet with you into the eye of terror where you will become known as one of the founding fathers of the dark mechanicum and unlike that stupid poo poo Kelbor-Hal you'll make bitching jet fighters and bombers none of that dinosaur crap. 
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2017 18:10
|
|
|
Kingcobra posted:Just finished up this Dynat, he is only 14th model painted in the last two decades so I am pretty pleased with how he has turned out, please excuse the mediocre image quality. For the record - you have done an AMAZING job on this guy. Well done!
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2017 23:14
|
|
|
Mango Polo posted:Yep. There's a big caveat though. This goon is 100% on the money. I have been running a Scoria Cybernetica force since book 6 dropped and he is a legit beast. His mobility is his only weakness and as such is able to be ignored or kited on foot in some scenarios. That said most people who play this game are bad at tactics and will gleefully charged their expensive poo poo right at Scoria and then whine like babies when he wrecks their poo poo........ sometimes I even warn them and they still do it. I usually field him with a unit of Castelax or Vorax then soak wounds and gently caress poo poo up. Here is one I prepared earlier. 
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2017 01:53
|
|
|
 
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2017 02:22
|
|
|
Gayme Design ITT:Sulecrist posted:There's a foundational question that needs to be asked, since all of the Hero Roles make assumptions about it, and that is: About how many Action Points should be gained over the course of an average 4-6 turn game? About how many should be spent vs rolled over? I agree on all parts, but I do feel each role should have an active and passive away to generate AP. The primary activity the hero does and a secondary activity that incentivizes certain exemplary actions. We should scale these by risk factor as you suggested. The AP economy AP is used to advance characters, bring back wounded leaders, and other 'optimizations'. The cost for optimizations ranges, but is usually around 10 points. Heros generate 3 AP at the start of a game and each leader generates 2 AP for a maximum of 4. So we can assume an average minimum point generation of 5AP. Lets set some other benchmarks. We want some AP savings for all players and we want them to use some AP in-game. Optimizations cost about 10 points and we want players to get 1 optimization every two games. This means they need to save 5 points each game. As for spending AP, 2 re-rolls without affecting these savings seems reasonable. This means that players must have 5 + 2 = 7ap in a game to meet our benchmarks. Since the minimum average point generation is 5, players only need to generate 2 points to meet the benchmarks. Based on this, and assuming a 6 turn game, low risk characters can generate 0.3AP each turn to meet our requirements. That means a 5+ chance to generate AP if they do it consistently each turn. Considering the current numbers we can see that by-and-large all the hero roles generate far more AP more easily. Generating AP is fun and rewarding, so I don't think we should scale back. Instead we should adjust the economy or benchmarks to better support having fun with the system. Alternatives There are few other options to consider.
Sulecrist posted:Here are my feelings regarding the original 6 roles. I also found Martyr broken even with AP caps. It is superior to Paragon in most ways since you want your guy front and centre anyway, but get more rewards for doing so. Before tweaking the roles, I wanted to use the outside in approach to figure out what types of leaders are possible in VisV. Here are all the possible heroes in the game, sans unique legion units which are derivatives of these, grouped into categories by what people are most likely to use them for: quote:
So it looks like we have 12 fairly broad categories of hero. 3 of these (Robots, Wizards, and Sneaking About) don't have many choices. I'm feeling we can make a case for probably about 9 distinct hero roles based on these groups which is funny because it's similar to my original draft 
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2017 03:07
|
|
|
BULBASAUR posted:
I think six turns is a pretty big generous assumption, given the time limits that both core and Adepticon VIV impose. I've played a couple dozen games with time limits (usually 45-60 minutes plus time to finish the final round), and most of them had about three full rounds of meaningful action. I also think two rerolls is about what I'd like to see every turn (for both players), with ~3 rerolls per turn for high-risk characters and ~1 (maybe 0) for low-risk. That's consistent with my best VIV experiences, and also the rough amount that the Adepticon packet facilitates. Finally, as discussed, I think spending AP to advance characters is a bad idea because it leads to dull behavior (hoarding, which both radically decreases potential risk by making defense much more likely, while also diminishing the number of cool active things that happen). So, for the way I enjoy playing, if we assume a 3-(meaningful-)turn game, and we want the average Hero to generate enough AP to make 12 rerolls over the course of that game, and each player starts with 6 (5-7) in the pool, then the Hero needs to generate 6 AP in three rounds, or 2/round. Maybe 3-4 for a character who risks serious death in the mid game rounds, and maybe only 1-1.5 /round for a sniper character (like your excellent Marksman, which is a perfect example of the power level and reward cycle I want to see in low-risk Roles). AND all of that assumes that AP is not being spent on advancement. In a world where the character is expected to save about 5 AP per game, I'd want the average to be something like 3.5/round. quote:I also found Martyr broken even with AP caps. It is superior to Paragon in most ways since you want your guy front and centre anyway, but get more rewards for doing so. Before tweaking the roles, I wanted to use the outside in approach to figure out what types of leaders are possible in VisV. Here are all the possible heroes in the game, sans unique legion units which are derivatives of these, grouped into categories by what people are most likely to use them for: I think Martyr can be balanced with (and distinct from) Paragon by focusing on delayed gratification--the hero gets a ton of AP, but he doesn't get to use any of them until after he endures an insane amount of poo poo. Paragon is unbalanced in core rules (sometimes more powerful than Martyr, sometimes less) because the single biggest factor is number of models you pack in the right distance. Core Martyr is only overpowered because it's self-perpetuating with weird incentives and no reward limit. I think the two concepts are distinct narratively and mechanically. Edited for clarity and to correct something I was misremembering. Sulecrist fucked around with this message at 05:17 on Jan 18, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2017 03:45
|
|
|
Which book is Scoria in? He doesn't seem to be in the Taghmata Omnissiah digital red book.
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2017 03:50
|
|
|
GreenMarine posted:Which book is Scoria in? He doesn't seem to be in the Taghmata Omnissiah digital red book. Most recent big black book, which came out at the same time as the new red books and conveniently didn't have any of the rules transferred into them.
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2017 03:52
|
|
|
I'll check him out. Hopefully they will update the digital red books instead of making me buy another one at some point. I guess I should check and see what other mech stuff is in that book since I've only been using the red book for list building. Cool conversion of him: 
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2017 03:53
|
|
|
GreenMarine posted:I'll check him out. The other Mechanicus items are a close combat thanatar, the mechanicum version of a landraider, and some kind of new knight Here's renowned evil space mechanic, Scoria:   
Gato The Elder fucked around with this message at 04:39 on Jan 18, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2017 04:36
|
|
|
GreenMarine and I are going to do red hot Scoria on Scoria action
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2017 05:15
|
|
|
Sulecrist posted:I think six turns is a pretty big generous assumption, given the time limits that both core and Adepticon VIV impose. I've played a couple dozen games with time limits (usually 45-60 minutes plus time to finish the final round), and most of them had about three full rounds of meaningful action. One thing to consider is the spirit of VisV- small strike forces fighting desperate micro battles. While re-rolls are fun, and I really like the AP system, giving players too much AP takes away from how meaningful actions are within the game. If players have 2 AP they can safely spend each turn this will result in a lot of action invalidation- if a player does something risky or gets a lucky break they are guaranteed to get challenged not just once, but twice each turn. I'd rather see less points that are used in more meaningful situations that force tactical choices. Should I spend my reserves to win this little engagement? Or should I save them to revive my fallen leader? Personally, I don't mind the advancement system. I don't have strong feelings about it, but I do like giving players a strong reason to save AP between games. My experience has been, at least in my VisV edit, that you have conservative AP spending leading up to a cinematic climax around turn 3-4. If you do really want to re-roll a lot, we could split the economy into traits and roles. This way you can always re-roll a hero's specific trait, but it's tied to a single hero and your opponent can account for it a bit better.
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2017 05:51
|
|
|
OMG sriracha pudding! posted:The other Mechanicus items are a close combat thanatar, the mechanicum version of a landraider, and some kind of new knight Oh yeah and Right of the Beast Scoria Cybertheurgy power coupled with Cyberneticas already +1 initiative passive bonus is absolutely gross, most of your punchy robros are now striking equal or before marines and in the case of something like vorax striking before almost everything bar primachs............
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2017 06:39
|
|
|
How are the Marine superheavy tanks? I just finished painting my Land Raider Proteus and highlighting all the edges and rivets only made me hate myself so much.
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2017 07:09
|
|
|
The Typhon is the Iron Warriors' greatest gift to mankind. It's probably the best super heavy despite the recent points increase. From of the fellblade variants the glave is probably the most scary, but it costs a lot. The Flachion is situational a bit expensive, but it's strong against armour and one of the few units in the game that can shut down a titan. The fellblade itself is a weaker armored baneblade with more hullpoints and a more flexible loadout.
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2017 07:39
|
|
|
SRM posted:How are the Marine superheavy tanks? I just finished painting my Land Raider Proteus and highlighting all the edges and rivets only made me hate myself so much. I love my Glaive, it is both fun to play and is very effective.
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2017 08:36
|
|
|
Who got the Typhon?? I spend several minutes writing haiku, and this delay is a literal slap in the face from the developers.
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2017 10:33
|
|
|
Ugh, and it really stings too
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2017 10:34
|
|
|
That Vodian Sceptre seems crazy over-powered. D3 wound at AP2, on a hit. Does any Primarch have a better weapon than that?
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2017 11:21
|
|
|
No. The only thing that comes close is Horus' gauntles, but only for duels, as his S10 weapon usually is enough to squash any non-EW things into the ground. Or Pert's hammer.
DJ Dizzy fucked around with this message at 11:34 on Jan 18, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2017 11:29
|
|
|
BULBASAUR posted:One thing to consider is the spirit of VisV- small strike forces fighting desperate micro battles. While re-rolls are fun, and I really like the AP system, giving players too much AP takes away from how meaningful actions are within the game. This is certainly an interesting and legitimate alternative way to play, and I will absolutely continue to follow and comment on your house rules and steal the ones I like most. But, because your rule set includes some clear changes in assumptions from the official and Adepticon packets, such a set necessarily has less utility than the "all the rules in one place" packet that we see many people ask for. (For what it's worth, I feel the same way about the 2016 Adepticon packet, and I like most of your rules a lot better than theirs.) Just something to consider.
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2017 12:56
|
|
|
OMG sriracha pudding! posted:Who got the Typhon?? I spend several minutes writing haiku, and this delay is a literal slap in the face from the developers.
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2017 19:37
|
|
|
Pierzak posted:Fill in the blanks yourself but yubitsume is the only sincere form of apology. I'd accept that. You don't need your pinky fingers to paint anyway
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2017 21:31
|
|
|
So up until yesterday I just assumed a Vigilator was a support officer, but when I was re-reading the red book I realized that they can be the Warlord. I've been having a lot of fun figuring out fun things to do with that- scouting up a stealth'd acid heavy bolter squad into some cover is definitely going to be happening in one of my armies soon. Anyone else have interesting non-delegatus/non-praetor warlord lists?
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2017 17:32
|
|
|
My toxxed lord of war will be one of these primed and assembled knights. Posting this to show they are in a primed, but unpainted state. Also have the completed knight so you know I won't post that one later as my toxxed lord of war.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2017 17:58
|
|
|
Just one?!
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2017 18:10
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 16, 2024 20:27 |
|
|
'''Tis the alpharius of knights. It is actually two knights who are twins. Go big or go home
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2017 19:10
|
|